Report: Ultra-Orthodox [Jews] Spitting at Christian Clergy in Jerusalem

The Deacon's Bench ^ | 11/4/11 | Deacon Greg Kandra

[Petrosius]

The fact that Jews regard Christianity as false no more justifies this spitting than the fact that Christians believe Jews have rejected Jesus as the true Messiah justify Christians spitting at Jews.

[Zionist Conspirator]

Boy howdy, did she pick the wrong sect of Judaism. Guess what, her Rabbi’s are the same guys this story is about.

How dare you post such a thing, AmericanInIsrael. And those rabbi were not "the same guys" because there is no such sect and no such ceremony as was described. How you can not know this is beyond me.

Charedi Jews are traditional Orthodox Jews. "Modern Orthodox" Jews are the left wing of Orthodoxy, and growing lefter by the minute.

I am disappointed in you dignifying such an abominable claim.

[Petrosius]

You realize, I hope, that in a genuinely Halakhic government of Israel practitioners of other religions would not be allowed to live there? Non-Jews could live there (gerei-toshav) and even idolators would be allowed to visit there (providing they didn't engage in any idolatry while there), but not to live there.

'Eretz Yisra'el is the "sacristy" of the earth. Only the priestly nation is allowed there.

So you have no objection that Queen Isabella expelled the Jews in order to maintain Spain as a Catholic nation?

[Petrosius]

When in a thread about jews spitting on people in orthodox robes, and when it is pointed out the offense some jews have with orthodox you go into a long apologetic about the inquistion about how it only burned catholics (or jews pretending to be catholics) only to launch into a diatribe about hidden agendas?

The thread only turned to the question of the Inquisition because you brought up the reason for the spitting is that Catholics burned Jews at the stake in order to convert them to Catholicism. Do not make a charge if you do not want to listen to defenses against it.

[jjotto]

Typically, Jew-hate stems from simple selfishness: Jews gave the world absolute morality. Some actions are always wrong. Most don’t like being told that they can’t do anything they want, and Jews somehow seem to be everywhere reminding them.

But Amalek is a special case. Amalek is willing and happy to give up many wrong actions, but only if the result is that he has more power over Jews. Though Ishmael revels in murder, ultimately he respects his father Abraham. However, Esau/Edom never will reconcile with his brother Jacob, and Amalek is the result. He will give up his credibility, his comfortable life, his civilization, his sons and daughters, if only he can teach those Jews a lesson!

[Zionist Conspirator]

The fact that Jews regard Christianity as false no more justifies this spitting than the fact that Christians believe Jews have rejected Jesus as the true Messiah justify Christians spitting at Jews.

Let me ask you something: what purpose do you think this thread serves?

Israel is a Middle Eastern country, and the traditional people who live there, of whatever religion, have a distinctly pre-modern and Middle Eastern mentality. Charedi Jews and the ancient liturgical chr*stians (particularly those in Israel) have a visceral dislike of each other that is hard for modern westerners to comprehend.

Authentic Judaism isn't some nice, American suburban congregational religion. And it is a statutory religion, not a salvational one as chr*stians understand it. Chr*stians need to stop viewing Judaism as chr*stianity minus J*sus because it's not and never was.

American chr*stian conservatives need to understand that real Orthodox Judaism is not a pluralistic, multicultural, kumbaya religion. It regards itself as true to the exclusion of other religions, regards Israel as its exclusive holy land, and does not share the philo-Semitic chr*stian view of being two historical stages of a single religion united with chr*stians against a hostile world (instead it faces a hostile world on its own). I'm sorry, but that's the way it is.

And before I close, for what it's worth, I have spent time recently (during the Glen Beck thing) defending philo-Semitic chr*stians from very Theocratic Jews just like the ones I'm defending here. I defend you to them, and them to you.

Dang. What a job!

At any rate, while there is a Halakhic responsibility for Jews to manifest hakkarat hatov (gratitude and appreciation for their friends, including chr*stians), the liturgical chr*stians of Israel are not philo-Semitic nor friends of the Jews in any sense. They are probably the most anti-Semitic chr*stians in the world, and they get away with it because it's politically correct to be anti-Semitic against Orthodox Jews in Israel.

[Zionist Conspirator]

So you have no objection that Queen Isabella expelled the Jews in order to maintain Spain as a Catholic nation?

You're forgetting that from my perspective Catholicism is not a true religion, so the analogy falls flat.

She certainly didn't have to force them to undergo phony conversions and then punish them for being insincere.

[PapaBear3625]

Wow! It’s been too long since there was a good round of Jew-bashing on FR! And BTW, this exact story shows up every few months.

Noting a bunch of Jews behaving badly is not "Jew-bashing". Perhaps if the ultra-Orthodox behaved better, the stories would not keep being brought up.

It's not just Israel. I used to live in Brooklyn at one time, and there are obnoxious ultra-Orthodox there as well. The major problem is that you have obnoxious people who are readily identifiable as Ultra-Orthodox, and their behavior reflects on all Ultra-Orthodox.

[PapaBear3625]

If you scream bloody murder at moslems who claim to be the fulfillment of chr*stianity and who promote "chrislam," then don't be a freaking hypocrite! Chr*stianity is not part of the Torah or the Jewish Scriptures at all. Stop expecting Jews to act as if they were!

I for one do not scream bloody murder at Muslims over details of their beliefs, only such beliefs that serve to justify violence against non-Muslims. I certainly would never spit on somebody because of his beliefs, nor advocate his being treated as a second-class citizen or un-person.

[Zionist Conspirator]

Typically, Jew-hate stems from simple selfishness: Jews gave the world absolute morality. Some actions are always wrong. Most don’t like being told that they can’t do anything they want, and Jews somehow seem to be everywhere reminding them.

I have long had another theory. As everyone knows (unfortunately), the charge often made against Jews is the exact opposite of representing absolute morality; rather, Jews are "subverters" of the "pristine morality" of whatever people they live among. Abortion, pornography, homosexuality, and Communism are all blamed on the Talmud. Never mind that liberal Jews aren't in the slightest Talmudists, the Lenny Bruces of the world always have their behavior attributed to a "Talmudic" attempt to destroy the sweet, adorable, cutesy-poo, and absolutely Disneyesque world of the non-Jewish "host" population. Why is this?

The anti-Jewish mentality is at essence a rejection of universal truths and morals in favor of particular "truths" and "morals." The "gxd" they worship (however disguised) is always a local "gxd," an idol, a tribal deity. The One True G-d of the Universe threatens this subjective, local worldview; therefore the True G-d and His representatives are dangerous agents of subversion.

Think about it--the attacks on "Jewish bolshevism" by ultra-right wing henotheistic nationalists in the past always stressed its universalism (a trait it no longer possesses since falling in love with "indigenous peoples" and "wars of national liberation"). The thing they most objected to about Communism was not so much its cruelties or atrocities but its claim of being universally valid and having a right to supplant local errors. This universalism is actually probably the only thing any form of Marxism ever had in common with Judaism. Most anti-Semitic attacks are not made in the name of defending universal truths or morality, but rather the truths or morality of the particular nation. Thus the "blood and soil" mentality.

The ironic but inevitable corollary of this henotheistic nationalism and charge of subversion is a bitter hatred of the most traditional Jews (manifested in this article and others posted on FR through the years) and its own roots in its Holy Land--a holy connection non-Jewish nations envy and resent. Thus the same people who accuse Jews of being the agents of modernity turn right around and spew left wing modernist ridicule on the pre-modern attitude of authentic traditional Jews.

But Amalek is a special case. Amalek is willing and happy to give up many wrong actions, but only if the result is that he has more power over Jews. Though Ishmael revels in murder, ultimately he respects his father Abraham. However, Esau/Edom never will reconcile with his brother Jacob, and Amalek is the result. He will give up his credibility, his comfortable life, his civilization, his sons and daughters, if only he can teach those Jews a lesson!

Jotto, I don't know if you're going to respect this opinion of mine, but I continue to maintain that most American-style philo-Semitic Fundamentalist Protestants are true friends of the Jewish People. I maintain this because I was once one of these people, and I know how they think--both the good points and the bad. Yes, they are ignorant of many things, but the intention to do the will of the One True G-d is there. It is a mistake to write them all off as 'Edom and it is equally a mistake to allow them to continue in their beliefs without any correction whatsoever (which merely confirms their false beliefs).

Please note that the majority of chr*stians in Jerusalem and Israel are not American-style Fundamentalist Protestants but members of the ancient liturgical churches which have never been the friends of the Jewish People.

If you insist on simply writing the good people off, don't complain when they go through life with these same false beliefs.

PS: I visited Israel for a week over eleven years ago. Not much, I know, but I was a fat redneck in a straw cowboy hat and nobody spit at me. In fact, I was regularly solicited for tzedaqah and even blessed once.

[PapaBear3625]

I don't want to come across as a defender of wacky mormon theology, but some of these people scream at mormons that they "aren't really chr*stians at all," but they expect Orthodox Jews to treat them as if they were fellow Jews, simply because their chr*stian bible has an "old testament" in it!!!

I regard the Hare Krishnas, Jehovah's Witnesses, and various other religions as being weird. This does not mean that I consider that I have the right to behave in an uncivil, rude, or (especially) violent manner towards people who do not share my beliefs (with the exception, as I said in my earlier post, of those whose beliefs advocate or condone violence against others).

I will even accept people who dislike my beliefs and consider them heretical, as long as they stay out of my face about it. Spitting in my face will result in the spitter being smacked. Spitting on my wife or one of my kids will bring a more emphatic response.

[jjotto]

I think I agree with you right down the line and I am optimistic. (The Jewish story of the introduction to the Messianic Age is filled with goodness, unlike the Apocalypse in Christianity). But at heart I have a mystical outlook; these behaviors have spiritual roots. As the Sages teach, everyone has some sparks of Amalek in them, but ALL can transcend the negativity.

The Talmud records “Some of the descendants of Haman [who in turn was a descendant of Amalek, converted to Judaism and] studied the Torah in public,” and even names R. Shmuel bar Shilas. No one is without hope.

[Petrosius]

Let me ask you something: what purpose do you think this thread serves?

It serves the same purpose that a thread reporting on an act of anti-Semitism would; it highlights that, recognizing that there are many factions within Judaism just as there are within Christianity, there is one faction in Judaism that acts out of a spirit of anti-Christian bigotry. These actions should be roundly condemned with the same fervor that acts of anti-Semitism are. Would you have us ignore acts of anti-Semitism by Christians because they would show all of Christianity in a bad light?

Lest I say something that is unjust, before I make any further response I would like to know if you think that this spitting is appropriate? My response will have to wait until tomorrow since I will be out for the rest of the evening.

[American in Israel]

I did not blame this on the catholics as you seem to want. The Pogrom from Hitler was not catholic, and I mentioned that one, I don't believe the pogrom in Poland was either.

So get off of the catholic apologetics rant already.

Documentation, otherwise know as homework done for you from the first google link on "Spanish inquisition Jews":

While many people associate the Inquisition with Spain and Portugal, it was actually instituted by Pope Innocent III (1198-1216) in Rome. A later pope, Pope Gregory IX established the Inquisition, in 1233, to combat the heresy of the Abilgenses, a religious sect in France. By 1255, the Inquisition was in full gear throughout Central and Western Europe; although it was never instituted in England or Scandinavia.

Initially a tribunal would open at a location and an edict of grace would be published calling upon those who are conscious of heresy to confess; after a period of grace, the tribunal officers could make accusations. Those accused of heresy were sentenced at an auto de fe, Act of Faith. Clergyman would sit at the proceedings and would deliver the punishments. Punishments included confinement to dungeons, physical abuse and torture. Those who reconciled with the church were still punished and many had their property confiscated, as well as were banished from public life. Those who never confessed were burned at the stake without strangulation; those who did confess were strangled first. During the 16th and 17th centuries, attendance at auto de fe reached as high as the attendance at bullfights.

In the beginning, the Inquisition dealt only with Christian heretics and did not interfere with the affairs of Jews. However, disputes about Maimonides’ books (which addressed the synthesis of Judaism and other cultures) provided a pretext for harassing Jews and, in 1242, the Inquisition condemned the Talmud and burned thousands of volumes. In 1288, the first mass burning of Jews on the stake took place in France.

... First, they arrested Conversos and notable figures in Seville; in Seville more than 700 Conversos were burned at the stake and 5,000 repented. Tribunals were also opened in Aragon, Catalonia and Valencia. An Inquisition Tribunal was set up in Ciudad Real, where 100 Conversos were condemned, and it was moved to Toledo in 1485. Between 1486-1492, 25 auto de fes were held in Toledo, 467 people were burned at the stake and others were imprisoned. The Inquisition finally made its way to Barcelona, where it was resisted at first because of the important place of Spanish Conversos in the economy and society.

More than 13,000 Conversos were put on trial during the first 12 years of the Spanish Inquisition. Hoping to eliminate ties between the Jewish community and Conversos, the Jews of Spain were expelled in 1492..

The next phase of the Inquisition began around 1531, when Pope Leo X extended the Inquisition to Portugal. Thousands of Jews came to Portugal after the 1492 expulsion. A Spanish style Inquisition was constituted and tribunals were set up in Lisbon and other cities. Among the Jews who died at the hands of the Inquisition were well-known figures of the period such as Isaac de Castro Tartas, Antonio Serrao de Castro and Antonio Jose da Silva. The Inquisition never stopped in Spain and continued until the late 18th century.

By the second half of the 18th century, the Inquisition abated, due to the spread of enlightened ideas and lack of resources. The last auto de fe in Portugal took place on October 27, 1765. Not until 1808, during the brief reign of Joseph Bonaparte, was the Inquisition abolished in Spain. An estimated 31,912 heretics were burned at the stake, 17,659 were burned in effigy and 291,450 made reconciliations in the Spanish Inquisition. In Portugal, about 40,000 cases were tried, although only 1,800 were burned, the rest made penance.

The Inquisition was not limited to Europe; it also spread to Spanish and Portugese colonies in the New World and Asia. Many Jews and Conversos fled from Portugal and Spain to the New World seeking greater security and economic opportunities. Branches of the Portugese Inquisition were set up in Goa and Brazil. Spanish tribunals and auto de fes were set up in Mexico, the Philippine Islands, Guatemala, Peru, New Granada and the Canary Islands. By the late 18th century, most of these were dissolved. ----------------------

Thousands of jews burned at the stake by monks in robes...

Think that might offend someone? Now, do you need me to google Poland's pogroms or teach you about Hitler too? The first steps to reconciliation is repentance.

[American in Israel]

I am not saying that this was a just action but this is quite different from the false charged that Jews were targeted for execution because they were Jews.

If they were not jews, but were indeed catholics, they would not have been burned at the stake. I repeat, "As a Jewish child are you no longer offended if your parents were burned at the stake because they turned out to be secret Jews?" Would you not be a bit offended? This is the point of the thread is it not? Ultra Orthodox that know the Catholic history better that Catholics obviously offended by the burning at the stake thingie and responding by spitting. I just thought a little understanding of their viewpoint to stop another inquistion was worth a try, but as the fires of catholic offense grow, it is I who am learning on this thread.

[American in Israel]

I did not dignify the charge I responded to it, quite a different thing. If the story is true or untrue is up to the teller, not the listener. I never witnessed such things in my time in Israel. But Israel has its wacko’s too, after all they are only human.

You know, the funny thing is that if this story was true, it would be the exact equivilant of a Jewish Inquisition. A tribunal hunt for fake faith. Only with the Jews they don’t burn you at the stake for being a secret Christian, heck they don’t even torture you. Bing, bam boom, in 10 minutes your on your way home...

[American in Israel]

you brought up the reason for the spitting is that Catholics burned Jews at the stake in order to convert them to Catholicism.

More like burned them at the stake for failing to convert to Catholicism. Obviously a minor point difference between us, but a rather serious issue for the poor guy on the stake I bet. Now the survivors would be the point of this issue, as the person on the spit, does not spit on a person. But the survivor would remember for a while that dad was burned alive by Catholics for being a Jew. And perhaps would want to spit on one if they walked by in your holy city. But if you think that someone who had a family member burned alive apon being told they were burned not because they were jewish, but because they were catholic jews would go, "O thats OK then, sorry, go ahead burn my dad alive..." Well, then we have nothing further to discuss.

[Zionist Conspirator]

Lest I say something that is unjust, before I make any further response I would like to know if you think that this spitting is appropriate?

No I do not (but then, I'm a modern American, not a member of an ancient religion in an ancient land). Neither do I think it worthy of a thread on Free Republic.

I hope you understand that I am a Theonomic positivist. If there is some Divine law that provides for spitting (which I've never heard of), then I'll have to change my answer.

[American in Israel]

One thing I must say, is that there is NO way any sect of judaism would ever have a naked woman stand before Rabbis, Rabbis are very very careful about the separation between women and men.

Women and men do not even sit together in the synagogue! As for the water thing, the mickva bathing ceremony is ALWAYS preformed by immersion not pouring, (that is a christian thing, not a Jewish thing), so at least two points of what she said is a non starter from a Jewish cultural standpoint.

So, in reality, the “witness” has lied her way into a point of no credibility half way through her statement. And from what I know of Jews, they show an incredible respect for others beliefs. They would not desecrate a Bible or a Koran for that matter.

Did you know that the Old Testament is the Tanach? Their Bible? For her story to be true, they would have had her desecrate their own holy writs.

Does not make a bit of sense to me. I am afraid that its...(drum roll inserted here) BS Meter time!

[Zionist Conspirator]

I did not dignify the charge I responded to it, quite a different thing. If the story is true or untrue is up to the teller, not the listener. I never witnessed such things in my time in Israel. But Israel has its wacko’s too, after all they are only human.

Kindly describe the kind of Orthodox Jewish community that would have as part of its conversion process spitting on a Bible. Do they burn Torah scrolls, too?