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To: one Lord one faith one baptism; metmom; smvoice; Iscool; MarkBsnr; Gamecock
It’s the Catholics who follow men. I follow Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

You may rely on some earthly organization to tell you that you belong to the church but I will rely on Christ.

John 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

Besides, you probably wouldn’t believe anyway.

John 10:24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. 25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

We listen to Christ, not some guy in a pointy hat in Rome.

168 posted on 11/24/2011 10:48:12 AM PST by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear
We listen to Christ, not some guy in a pointy hat in Rome.

Izzat so? 2 Timothy 2: 1 "You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus, and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also"

If you do not listen to the rightful teachers, but only the god in the mirror, you are not following Christ, but your own whims. Your own admitted substitution of other sources from the Church leads you away from Christ.

187 posted on 11/24/2011 1:20:29 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: CynicalBear
Don't twist the scriptures.

Do you reject Hebrews 13:17: Obey your spiritual leaders, and do what they say. Their work is to watch over your souls, and they are accountable to God. Give them reason to do this with joy and not with sorrow. That would certainly not be for your benefit.

Πείθεσθε τοῖς ἡγουμένοις ὑμῶν καὶ ὑπείκετε, αὐτοὶ γὰρ ἀγρυπνοῦσιν ὑπὲρ τῶν ψυχῶν ὑμῶν ὡς λόγον ἀποδώσοντες, ἵνα μετὰ χαρᾶς τοῦτο ποιῶσιν καὶ μὴ στενάζοντες, ἀλυσιτελὲς γὰρ ὑμῖν τοῦτο.

Let's compare the Greek in 1 Timothy 3 with the Greek in St. Ignatius of Antioch's Epistle to the Church of Smyrna and the Didache.

Scholarship suggests 1 Timothy was written about 62 A.D., while St. Ignatius's epistle was written about 40 years later.

In Timothy 3:1 we find the Greek word ἐπισκοπῆς (episcopos), which literally means overseer or bishop in English. The same is true in 3:2 where we find the form ἐπίσκοπον. It appears again in Titus 1:7. http://biblos.com/titus/1-7.htm

Anti-episcopal Protestants try dismissing the episcopacy as an innovation by fudging the words.

Looking at extra-scriptural references is important because they show how this term was in common usage during this time period.

In the Didache, which was written in the late 1st century, which is the earliest extra-scriptural reference to how early Christians believed and worshiped we find the following.

Appoint, therefore, for yourselves, bishops and deacons worthy of the Lord, men meek, and not lovers of money, and truthful and proved; for they also render to you the service of prophets and teachers. Therefore do not despise them, for they are your honored ones, together with the prophets and teachers. And reprove one another, not in anger, but in peace, as you have it in the Gospel. But to anyone that acts amiss against another, let no one speak, nor let him hear anything from you until he repents. But your prayers and alms and all your deeds so do, as you have it in the Gospel of our Lord.

The Greek text again uses the same word as the Bible. 1 ceirotonhsate oun eautoiv episkopouv kai diakonouv axiouv tou kuriou, andrav praeiv kai afilargurouv kai alhqeiv kai dedokimasmenouv, umin gar leitourgousi kai autoi thn leitourgian twn profhtwn kai didaskalwn.

In the Epistle to the Smyrneans, episkopos reappears in the following context.

See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is[administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude[of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.

1. Πάντες τῷ ἐπισκόπῳ ἀκολουθεῖτε, ὡς Ἰησοῦς Χριστὸς τῷ πατρί, καὶ τῷ πρεσβυτερἰῳ ὡς τοῖς ἀποστόλοις. τοὺς δὲ διακόνους ἐντρέπεσθε ὡς θεοῦ ἐντολήν. μηδεὶς χωρὶς τοῦ ἐπισκόπου τι πρασσέτω τῶν ἀνηκόντων εἰς τὴν ἐκκλησίαν. ἐκείνη βεβαία εὐχαριστία ἡγείσθω, ἡ ὑπὸ ἐπίσοπον οὖσα ἢ ᾧ ἂν αὐτὸς ἐπιτρέψῃ. 2. ὅπου ἂν φανῇ ὁ ἐπίσκοπος, ἐκεῖ τὸ πλῆθος ἤτω, ὥσπερ ὅπου ἂν ῇ Ἰησοῦς Χριστός, ἐκεῖ ἡ καθολικὴ ἐκκλησία(Catholic Church). οὐκ ἐξόν ἐστιν χωρὶς τοῦ ἐπισκόπου οὔτε βαπτίζειν οὔτε ἀγάπην ποιεῖν· ἀλλ’ ὃ ἂν ἐκεῖνος δοκιμάσῃ, τοῦτο καὶ τῷ θεῷ εὐάρεστον, ἵνα ἀσφαλὲς ᾖ καὶ βέβαιον πᾶν ὃ πράσσετε. http://www.ccel.org/l/lake/fathers/ignatius-smyrnaeans.htm

Episkopos is also found in the 1 Epistle of St. Clement to the Corinthians, which was written around 95 A.D.

Clement is referenced directly by St. Paul in Philippians 4:3 Philippians Yes, and I ask you, my true companion, help these women since they have contended at my side in the cause of the gospel, along with Clement and the rest of my co-workers, whose names are in the book of life. http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/info/1clement.html

1Clem 42:4 So preaching everywhere in country and town, they appointed their firstfruits, when they had proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons unto them that should believe.

1Clem 42:5 And this they did in no new fashion; for indeed it had been written concerning bishops and deacons from very ancient times; for thus saith the scripture in a certain place, I will appoint their bishops in righteousness and their deacons in faith.

Chapter 42. Οι αποστολοι ημιν ευηγγελισθησαν απο του κυριου Ιησου Χριστου, Ιησους ο Χριστος απο του θεου αξεπεμφθη. ο Χριστος ουν απο του θεου,και οι αποστολοι απο του Χριστου· εγενοντο ουν αμφοτερα ευτακτως εκ θεληματος θεου. παραγγελιας ουν λαβοντες και πληροφορηθεντες δια της αναστασεως του κυριου ημων Ιησου Χριστου και πιστωθεντες εν τω λογω του θεου μετα πληροφοριας πνευματος αγιου εξηλθον, ευαγγελιζομενοι την βασιλειαν του θεου μελλειν ερχεσθαι. κατα χωρας ουν και πολεις κηρυσσοντες καθιστανον τας απαρχας αυτων, δοκιμασαντες τω πνευματι, εις επισκοπους και διακονους των μελλοντων πιστευειν. και τουτο ου καινως, εκ γαρ δη πολλων χρονων εγεγραπτο περι επισκοπων και διακονων· ουτωσ γαρ που λεγει η γραφη· Καταστησω τους επισκοπους αυτων εν δικαιοσυνη και τους διακονους αυτωνεν πιστει.

1Clem 44:1 And our Apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife over the name of the bishop's office.

Και οι αποστολοι ημων εγνωσαν δια του κυριου ημων Ιησου Χριστου οτι ερις εσται επι του ονοματος της επισκοπης.

Then we find in the rest of the Chapter that St. Clement relates that: 1Clem 44:2 For this cause therefore, having received complete foreknowledge, they appointed the aforesaid persons, and afterwards they provided a continuance, that if these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed to their ministration.

A Catholic's first duty is to follow Christ and follow the direction of the bishops, presbyters, and deaons as long as they follow Christ in their words and in their deeds.

Stop setting up strawmen to insinuate that we worship the Pope, our patriarchs, or our bishops.

Sola Scriptura's end purpose is the dogmatization of anti-Catholicism. If scripture is plain, did these holy teachers misunderstand the scriptures? And why do you presume to understand the scriptures better than they?

Aren't you being just a tad immodest?
265 posted on 11/25/2011 9:49:45 AM PST by rzman21
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To: CynicalBear
We listen to Christ, not some guy in a pointy hat in Rome.

Given the amazing amount of Scripture that your side dispenses with, we're not sure that you listen to anyone else other than the guy in the mirror.

455 posted on 11/26/2011 6:43:51 AM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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