Why Thank YOU, Ma'am!!
So should your stenographer...
Posted on 12/13/2011 7:53:56 AM PST by Colofornian
This seems like a basic enough question that needs addressing by Mormons.
Where does this article go?
1. The Mormon church claims to be a “Christian” church – much like fundamentalist Mormons (fLDS) who claim to be "Mormon." Mainstream Mormons object to that inclusion -- much the same Christians object to counterfeit religions claiming authenticity -- at the expense of Christians, of course!
2. Where might boundaries be established and respected when it comes from moving from one religion to another? Where are Mormonism's misguided boundaries?
3. Does it sound very “civil” for Mormon “prophets” to label all those who don’t confess Joseph Smith as “of Antichrist” – as Brigham Young did...or ‘Church of the Devil’ – as BYU professors applying an obvious Book of Mormon text do with sanction of the Mormon church?
4. What other proof is offered that Mormonism is “anti-Christian?” Is Christian church 'of the devil?' per Mormonism?
5. FAQ: Still not convinced that the Mormon church has “fronted” itself as outright “anti-Christian?” Then please read this FAQ on: Who are the Christians and What is Christianity, per Mormonism? An 'Interview' Across the Generations with the mouthpieces of the Mormon god, the Lds 'prophets' and 'apostles':
* ”Of course, we are a Christian Church. The very name of the Church denotes that. The central figure of our worship is the Lord Jesus Christ.” (Lds “prophet” Gordon B. Hinckley, 'A better understanding' to come of world's visit, LDS Church News, Sarah Jane Weaver, March 2, 2002 A Better Understanding to Come of Worlds to Visit)
* This is especially important in our interactions with members of other Christian denominations. (Lds “apostle Robert D. Hales, official Lds Ensign magazine, November, 2008 Christian Courage: The Price of Discipleship Christian courage)
*”The following are some of the more important differences in belief and practice between The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and other Christian churches. (Core Beliefs: Why and How are Mormons Different)
Mormon Bloggers have made similar claims:
* ….the ways they are similar to many other Christian churches. (http://mormon.lds.net/)
* I think other Christian faiths and Mormons can agree on the importance… (http://www.mormonbloggers.com/tag/prophets)
*…other Christian faiths… (http://en.fairmormon.org/Anti-Mormon)
One thing for certain: Mormon references to a generic "Christian Church" certainly constitutes a major improvement over what Mormon leaders have specifically called Christians ever since the Book of Mormon claimed Christians fell under the umbrella of Satan's church (1 Nephi 14).
* In John 14:6, Jesus draws the line at Himself: "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man comes to the Father but by Me"
Mormons? They draw the line at places like Joseph Smith and the Lds Church!
Drawing the line at the Mormon church:
* "This Church is the ensign on the mountain spoken of by the Old Testament prophets. It is the way, the truth, and the life" Lds "First President" Marion Romney -- one of top three ranking hierarchical Mormons (Conference Report, April, 1961, p. 119)
* See also Lds Doctrine & Covenants 1:30...no true church outside of Mormon church.
Drawing the line at Joseph Smith:
* "If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by him [Joseph Smith]; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him [Joseph Smith]" ("Apostle" George Q. Cannon, as quoted in 1988 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, p. 142)
* [There is] "no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (Lds "prophet" Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190)
* "No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith...every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are... [Joseph Smith] reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven. Many will exclaim—"Oh, that is very disagreeable! It is preposterous! We cannot bear the thought!" But it is true." (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p.289-91)
* "He that confesseth not that Jesus has come in the flesh and sent Joseph Smith with the fullness of the Gospel to this generation, is not of God, but is anti-christ" (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 9, p.312)
* "Whosoever...does not confess that God has sent Joseph Smith, and revealed the everlasting Gospel to and through him, is of Antichrist...," (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 8, p. 176)
Example A – Brigham Young: "...EVERYevery spirit that does not confess that God has sent Joseph Smith, and revealed the everlasting Gospel to and through him, is of Antichrist..." (Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 435; also found in Journal of Discourses, Vol. 8, p. 176)
Young also similarly said: "He that confesseth not that Jesus has come in the flesh and sent Joseph Smith with the fullness of the Gospel to this generation, is not of God, but is anti-christ" (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 9, p.312)
Example B – Spencer W. Kimball, Lds’ 12th “prophet”: "Presumptuous and blasphemous are they who purport to baptize, bless, marry, or perform other sacraments in the name of the Lord while in fact lacking his specific authorization." (Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p. 494)
Alongside this quote we need to recognize that Lds teach ALL authority for this priesthood ability rests ONLY in the Mormon church. Therefore, they label ALL Christian pastors and priests who ”baptize, bless, marry, and perform …sacraments” as engaging in “blasphemous” behavior. In other words, skewed doctrinal beliefs lead to “uncivil” accusations.
Example C – Lds leaders: "Since whoever does not belong to 'the church of the Lamb of God' belongs to 'the church of the devil,' as Nephi announced then all systems of worship outside of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints would be classified as 'the church of the devil' by Nephi's definition (Kent B. Jackson, "Watch and Remember" etc. from publication By Study and Also by Faith: Essays in Honor of Hugh W. Nibley on the Occasion of His Eightieth Birthday, 3/27/90, vol. 1, p. 87)
Thus, how “hospitable” is it for the Mormon to claim that all other churches are part of “the church of the devil”?
I suppose we could conclude that “Hey, if all they are doing is teaching what their 'word' says, how can that be deemed as ‘uncivil?’”
For starters, most Christians seem to own up to the implications of John 14:6 (or, at least, at one time did). In contrast, Mormons tend to shy away from "owning" up to the implications of…
…D&C 1:30 (which claims the Mormon church is the ONLY true and living church on the face of the earth)…
…1 Nephi 14:9-10 (which labels all churches not recognized by the Book of Mormon as part of the umbrella “church of the devil”)…
….and Joseph Smith – History, vv. 18-20 (which labels 100% of Christian creeds as being an “abomination” and 100% of professing Christians as “corrupt”).
In other words, while LDS tend to play “victim” and say “woe is us” – look at how Mormons are being treated …they seemingly downplay the negative and oppressive words aimed at Christian sects – words originating out of official Mormon sources with tithing funds.
* As mentioned above, Jesus draws the line at Himself in John 14:6; Mormons? They draw the line at whatever extra-biblical “revelation” catches their current “prophet’s” fancy. For example, even if the Mormons were to get Christian concession that the apostle Paul taught three degrees of salvation, there's nowhere in the Bible that says the bottom two degrees = banishment from being in God's presence forever, which is official Mormon teaching.
Joseph Smith himself:
Joseph Smith, Jr.: “…all the priests who adhere to the sectarian religions of the day with all their followers, without one exception, receive their portion with the devil and his angels.” (The Elders Journal, Joseph Smith Jr., editor, vol.1, no.4, p.60).
Late 19th century:
George Q. Cannon, member of First Presidency with four different Lds "prophets": "AFTER the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (George Q. Cannon, Gospel Truth, pg.324).
45 years ago:
* Lds "apostle" Bruce R. McConkie: McConkie says all non-Mormon churches are "...the great apostate church" [that's us -- the Christian church] "as the anti-christ...This great antichrist...is the church of the devil." ("Apostle" Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine p.40)
* Lds "apostle" Bruce R. McConkie: "What is the church of the devil in our day, and what is the seat of her power?…It is all the systems, BOTH Christian and non-Christian, that perverted the pure and perfect gospel….It is communism, it is Islam; it is Buddhism; it is modern Christianity in ALL its parts. It is Germany under Hitler, Russia under Stalin, and Italy under Mussolini" (Millennial Messiah, pp. 54-55).
* Lds "apostle" Bruce R. McConkie: "The church of the devil is the world; it is all the carnality and evil to which fallen man is heir; it is every unholy and wicked practice; it is every false religion, every supposed system of salvation which does not actually save and exalt man in the highest heaven of the celestial world. It is EVERY CHURCH except the true church, whether parading under a Christian or a pagan banner." (Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3:551)
Note, per Mormon doctrine, McConkie’s reference to “the true church” applies only to the Mormon one, supposedly the "only true and living church on the face of the earth." (D&C 1:30).
BTW, the Doctrinal New Testament Commentary was cited by the official Mormon church as a commentary to 1 Nephi 14:10:
* It was also cited among study guides commonly used in the Mormon church as published by Cedar Fort out of Springville, Utah...in these two 2007 books:
* Randal S. Chase, Making Precious Things Plain: A Book of Mormon Study Guide: Volume 1: 1 Nephi-Alma 16 Cedar Fort, Springville, UT, 2007 p. 40
* K. Douglas Bassett, PhD, Doctrinal Insights to the Book of Mormon: Vol. 1: 1 Nephi through 2 Nephi Cedar Fort, Springville, UT 2007, pp. 62-63
27 years ago -- Official Lds church magazine, Ensign:
The “man of sin,” generally equated with Satan, would exalt himself over all that is divine and assume the place of God in the Church. Of historical and theological significance is the fact that in Paul’s prophecy the church structure survives. But God is not at its head, making that church—following the appearance in it of Satan—no longer the church of God....How appropriate, therefore, is Paul’s description of him sitting in the place of God in the church of the apostasía. Kent P. Jackson, Early Signs of the Apostasy, Ensign, December 1984 Early Signs of the Apostasy
This BYU professor is commenting on 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 here...which Christian commentators reference as future. Lds leaders constantly reference 2 Thess. 2:1-12 as past tense -- evidence of the great apostasy...Jackson calls it a "drastic" apostasy. Lds doctrine is that it was total or all but a handful...and those handful of escapees from apostasy were never made "public."
Q. Who is the Christian Jesus?
A. Lds "apostle" Bruce McConkie: ...virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269).
Q: Who is the Christian God?
A. Lds "prophet" Brigham Young: The "Christian God is the Mormon's Devil..." (Journal of Discourses, Volume 5, page 331). “…the God whom the ‘Christians’ worship is a being of their own creation…” (Apostle Charles W. Penrose, Journal of Discourses 23:243).
Q. Who inspires Christians?
A. Joseph Smith: "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).
Q. Where did Christianity in its form between 100 & 200 AD through the 19th century originate?
A. Lds "prophet" John Taylor, who was with Joseph Smith when Smith died: Christianity was "hatched in hell" (Journal of Discourses, Volume 6, page 176) and "a perfect pack of nonsense...the Devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century..." (Journal of Discourses, Volume 6, page 167).
Q. Who is classified as part of the "church of the devil" according to the Book of Mormon?
A Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 14:10: “Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the Church of the Lamb of God [i.e.. the Mormon Church] and the other is the church of the devil [for example: the Christian Church]; wherefore whosoever belongeth not to the church of the lamb of God belongeth to that great church; which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.”
A. BYU professor Kent B. Jackson: "Since whoever does not belong to 'the church of the Lamb of God' belongs to 'the church of the devil,' as Nephi announced then all systems of worship outside of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints would be classified as 'the church of the devil' by Nephi's definition (Kent B. Jackson, "Watch and Remember" etc. from publication By Study and Also by Faith: Essays in Honor of Hugh W. Nibley on the Occasion of His Eightieth Birthday, 3/27/90, vol. 1, p. 87, citing 1 Nephi 14:9-10 from the Book of Mormon)
Q. What is the church of the devil in our day?
A. Lds "apostle" Bruce R. McConkie: "What is the church of the devil in our day, and where is the seat of her power?.... It is all of the systems, both Christian and non-Christian, that perverted the pure and perfect gospel....It is communism; it is Islam; it is Buddhism; it is modern Christianity in all its parts. It is Germany under Hitler, Russia under Stalin, and Italy under Mussolini." (The Millennial Messiah, pp. 54-55.)
Q: Do LDS considers themselves one legitimate church among many?
A. Lds "prophet" Joseph Smith: "This [the LDS] Church...is the ONLY only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth" (Doctrine and Covenants 1:30). Lds "prophet" Ezra Taft Benson, who served in the Eisenhower administration: "This is not just another Church. This is not just one of a family of Christian churches. This is the Church and kingdom of God, the ONLY true Church upon the face of the earth..." (Teachings of LDS prophet Ezra Taft Benson, p.164-165). The Lds church "is the ONLY true church upon the face of the earth..." (D&C 1:30)
Q. What then, are the rest of the churches? Apostates?
A. Lds general authority B.H. Roberts: "Nothing less than a complete apostasy from the Christian religion would warrant the establishment of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Introduction to the History of the Church 1:XL). Lds "apostle" Bruce McConkie: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); " “The Christian world, I discovered, was like the captain and crew of a vessel on the ocean without a compass, and tossed to and fro whithersoever the wind listed to blow them. When the light came to me, I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness.” (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 5:73).
Q. While we all know not every member of a Christian church is a true Christian, what difference is there between Christians in Christian churches and Mormons who reference themselves as 'Christians?'
A. Brigham Young: "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).
Q. Go ahead and let it out. How do you really feel about Christians?
A. Lds "apostle" Orson Pratt: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).
Q. Can we at least commend some of the teachings of the Christian church as "truth" and "light" to the world?
A. Lds "prophet" Brigham Young: "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199) "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171);
Q. "Do you believe the Bible?"
A. Lds "prophet" Joseph Smith: "'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'.(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).
Q. 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons?"
A. Lds "prophet" Joseph Smith: 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).
Q. When the so-called Great Apostasy hit the early Christian church, would you say the Christian church was still better off then -- or 17 centuries later?
A. Lds "apostle" Orson Pratt: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses, vol.18, p.44)
Q. Lds "prophet" Joseph Fielding Smith...would you like to add anything to this question?
A. Lds "prophet" Joseph Fielding Smith (10th LDS President) -- "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation that was not, in the year 1820, so obscured by false tradition and ceremonies, borrowed from paganism, as to make it unrecognizable; or else it was entirely denied ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that ALL the `Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation 3:282).
Q. What else did you claim in that vision, Joseph?
A. Lds "prophet" Joseph Smith: " for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith-History v. 12).
Q. Is that all?
A. Lds "prophet" Joseph Smith: I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong) and which I should join. 19 I was answered that I must join NONE of them,
or they were ALL wrong;
and the Personage who addressed me said that ALL their creeds were an abomination in his sight;
that those professors were ALL corrupt;
that: "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof." (Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith History -- vv. 18-19)
Well we all know the name of your anti Christian web site...it's lds.org.
If you're looking for propaganda, that's the place with a whole lot of it. They spend billions spreading the lies about Jesus and God and "restored" gospel.
FreeRepublic
Why Thank YOU, Ma'am!!
So should your stenographer...
Why it sure would be nice to get a Temple Recommend® for Smithmas; wouldn't it!
...going to HELL!
"Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned;
and I will go still further and say, take this revelation, or any other revelation that the Lord has given,
and deny it in your feelings, and I promise that you will be damned.
Brigham Young - JoD 3:266 (July 14, 1855)
But being a 'Religious Philosophy' major; at one time - oh yes; and a Crhistian - if that helps - I don't complain, ever about the mix and match per opinions. . .albeit, it seems to bother a few here; nonetheless.
Can only say 'whateeeeeever'. . .or something akin to 'whatthe. . .ever'. Have been posting at FR for a very long time; and find it both amazing - if not amusing - and may I add, dispiriting; that there are such proprietary imaginings per 'forums' accessed.
Is this a "Agree w/me Bible Study" Forum; or a 'free to opine' forum per Free Republic Conservative - but not with denonimational boundaries; or restrictions per ones 'choice to opine'.
Well for such an ooooooooooooold timer, certainly you know how to remove RF from your notifications.
You may opine to your hearts content - just quit whining about finding religious topic in the RELIGION forum.
http://www.freerepublic.com/~religionmoderator/
Oh; not just a Mornon connection or intersection with totalitarian Islam; but as well; painful similarities shared by Islamists and Leftists; more, perhaps; than those shared by Mormons, actually. WHATEVER here; given that there are more LIbs/Lefties than Mormons who are politically empowered should tell us; what enemy we should have our focus on. <P Check out ‘Nazi’/Islamic confluences. . .there IS a chicken/egg here . .
Ahh; Elsie; it is what YOU said. . .if you meant MSM; then just 'say it'! (Am 'guessing' per above; that you mean Newt - and not NEXT.
'Meantime'; am really trhing to follow your thought path. . .trying; trying.
Perhaps you could try harder to communicate more clearly. So; am left to believe that I think I 'get' what it is; you are about. But could be wrong; of couse! Clarity per choice of words; helps. . .
You flunked out of the ‘Religious Philosophy’ program, didn’t you?
Again, I’m sorry you can’t multitask. I can focus on more than one enemy at a time.
Perhaps you could try harder to communicate more clearly.
I do believe I will; newt time!
Well we all know the name of your anti Christian web site...it’s lds.org.
****
Afraid post a live link greyfoxx39....
Ye are of the school of the antinomian
(more sin more grace!:)
Romans 6
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Romans 2
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For NOT the hearers of the law are just before God, but the DOERS of the law shall be justified.
But the Lord God councel
Romans 2
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Fail and a complete taking of scripture out of context. If you read further, Paul talks about those who think that Christians have license to sin, and no Christian believes that. We do, however, recognize we are all sinners, and cannot ‘be good’ on our own.
The LDS however, believe that all sin can be eradicated by keeping the Law and thus spit on grace and are under condemnation of the WHOLE law.
You really need to get a non-LDS Bible, Resty.
Here is a Bible study on Romans that I really encourage you to read...please?
http://www.gci.org/bible/romans
Cannot defend Mitt; albeit not because of his Mormonism. Should I decide that his 'Muslim neutral' view is a result of his religion; and not typical Republican acquiescence to Political Correctness; then I will reconsider. (Of course; given Mitt's general neutrality to any and all issues; it would seem his problem is more a 'personal failing'; rather than a religious MO.)
Meantime. . .am not losing sleep over any Mormon Jihad; but rather will continue to worry and warn about those; who are, in fact; so actively engaged.
(And value any Republican Leader and/or Candidate, who recognizes the 'threat at hand' as well.)
That is very brave, in my humble opinion.
They can look up MORMON scripture on their own that shows how GOD wants to control what they eat in the warm weather; so I won't have to post it all the time.
But, since verses 12&13 are burned into my memory; I may as well post it again.
(Hope you get your TR for Christmas...)
| The Official Scriptures of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints © 2006 Intellectual Reserve, Inc. All rights reserved. Rights and use information. Privacy policy. |
Didn't PD give you the WHOLE list??
(Sorry I didn't include the highjacked statue pix he used to use...)
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.