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Mary: Mother of God?
What Does the Bible say? ^ | 01/11/2012 | Bro. Lev Humphries,

Posted on 01/11/2012 7:34:56 PM PST by RnMomof7

Mary: Mother of God?

This article is prompted by an ad in the Parade Magazine titled: "Mary Mother of God: What All Mankind Should Know." The offer was made for a free pamphlet entitled "Mary Mother of Jesus" with this explanation: "A clear, insightful pamphlet explains the importance of Mary and her role as Mother of God."

This is quite a claim, to say the least! Nowhere in the Bible is Mary said to be the mother of God. I touched on this subject in a series on "Mary Co-Redeemer with Christ" printed recently.

Question: If Mary is the Mother of God, Who, may I ask, is the Father of God? Does God have a Father, and if He does, Who is His Mother?

The phrase "Mother of God" originated in the Council of Ephesus, in the year 431 AD. It occurs in the Creed of Chalcedon, which was adopted by the council in 451 AD. This was the declaration given at that time: "Born of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God according to the Manhood." The purpose of this statement originally was meant to emphasize the deity of Christ over against the teaching of the Nestorians whose teaching involved a dual-natured Jesus. Their teaching was that the person born of Mary was only a man who was then indwelt by God. The title "Mother of God" was used originally to counter this false doctrine. The doctrine now emphasizes the person of Mary rather than the deity of Jesus as God incarnate. Mary certainly did not give birth to God. In fact, Mary did not give birth to the divinity of Christ. Mary only gave birth to the humanity of Jesus. The only thing Jesus got from Mary was a body. Every Human Being has received a sinful nature from their parents with one exception: Jesus was not human. He was divine God in a flesh body. This is what Mary gave birth to. Read Hebrews 10:5 and Phil 2:5-11.

Please refer to Hebrews 10:5 where we see. "...Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me."

The body of Jesus was prepared by God. In Matthew 1:18, "she was found with child of the Holy Ghost."

The divine nature of Jesus existed from before eternity, and this cannot be said of Mary Jesus never called her "mother". He called her "woman".

This doctrine deifies Mary and humanizes Jesus. Mary is presented as stronger that Christ, more mature and more powerful that Christ. Listen to this statement by Rome: "He came to us through Mary, and we must go to Him through her." The Bible plainly states that God is the Creator of all things. It is a blasphemous attack on the eternity of God to ever teach that He has a mother. Mary had other children who were normal, physical, sinful human beings. In the case of Jesus Christ, "His human nature had no father and His divine nature had no mother."

It is probably no coincidence that this false doctrine surrounding Mary was born in Ephesus. Please read Acts 19:11-41 and see that Ephesus had a problem with goddess worship. Her name was Diana, Gk. Artemis. You will not have to study very deep to find the similarities between the goddess Diana and the Roman Catholic goddess, Mary. It should be noted that the Mary of the 1st century and the Mary of the 20th century are not the same. Mary of the 1st century was the virgin who gave birth to the Messiah. Mary of the 20th century is a goddess created by the Roman Catholic Church. A simple comparison of what the Bible teaches about Mary and what the Roman Catholic Church teaches about her will reveal two different Marys. Mary is not the "Mother of God." If she were she would be GOD! There is only one true, eternal God. He was not born of a woman. Any teaching on any subject should be backed up by the word of God. If it cannot be supported by Scriptures, it is false doctrine.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Evangelical Christian; General Discusssion; Theology
KEYWORDS: blessedvirginmary; calvinismisdead; divinity; humanity; ignoranceisbliss; mariolatry; mary; motherofgod; nestorianheresy; nestorians; perpetualvirginity; theotokos
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To: editor-surveyor

It was an honest question to see if you were consistent with your defintion of idolatry.

But I understand if it baffles you.


851 posted on 01/13/2012 12:19:24 PM PST by lastchance ("Nisi credideritis, non intelligetis" St. Augustine)
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To: roamer_1

So glad you brought this up, roamer. It deserves it’s own thread.


852 posted on 01/13/2012 12:20:46 PM PST by bonfire
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To: roamer_1

You are doing, knowingly or not, comparative religion. In this case Christianity with ancient myths - and denouncing any similarities in Christianity.

If this is your position, integrity would say: do the same for Christ.

Capiché?


853 posted on 01/13/2012 12:21:40 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: roamer_1

So glad you brought this up, roamer. deserves its own thread.


854 posted on 01/13/2012 12:22:28 PM PST by bonfire
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To: D-fendr

:)


855 posted on 01/13/2012 12:24:14 PM PST by Jvette
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To: caww; D-fendr; CynicalBear; editor-surveyor; metmom

This is the “beauty of the Catholic Church”. They define what idolatry is then the “faithful” follow their definition. Never mind what the Bible says it is. If it’s not idolatry in the CC, then it’s not idolatry. How CONVENIENT, yet again, for the CC..


856 posted on 01/13/2012 12:24:31 PM PST by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing is for an eternity..)
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To: roamer_1

Well stated!


857 posted on 01/13/2012 12:25:25 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: Jvette

You’re just dropping the ball on every play.

Christ got his incorruptibility when he was buried.

The incorruptibility of which Paul spoke was completely WRT our biological bodies. They cannot withstand the presence of God, just as Christ’s could not, until it was changed.

As to sin, yes Jesus was tempted, as we are. The difference is he was able to resist it to do his Father’s work. That is not heresy.


858 posted on 01/13/2012 12:26:02 PM PST by editor-surveyor (No Federal Sales Tax - No Way!)
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To: bonfire; roamer_1
deserves its own thread.

There already is, on atheist websites.

Honestly, are you guys completely ignorant about where you are going here?

859 posted on 01/13/2012 12:26:52 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: bonfire; roamer_1
deserves its own thread.

There already is, on atheist websites.

Honestly, are you guys completely ignorant about where you are going here?

860 posted on 01/13/2012 12:27:47 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: CynicalBear

***There is no other Rock.***

Scripture says otherwise, indeed, Jesus says otherwise.

Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Remind me again, what does Peter mean? And, who was it that changed Simon’s name to Peter?

Oh, that’s right, it was JESUS.

Why did He change Simon’s name to rock?


861 posted on 01/13/2012 12:28:30 PM PST by Jvette
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To: smvoice

As opposed to your definition of idolatry? How convenient. And we should take your opinion, why?

Would you even know an idol if you saw it?


862 posted on 01/13/2012 12:30:04 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: verga
He breathed His last, If you breathe your last what dos that mean happend to you?

Does your soul and spirit die when your body quits breathing???

863 posted on 01/13/2012 12:31:33 PM PST by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: lastchance; editor-surveyor; Jvette; boatbums; CynicalBear
Ya know, I do have to give this one to Editor Surveyor. Christ’s body as our bodies will be was changed. That does not contradict Him offering physical proof to Thomas of His wounds.

They can look the same even if they aren't in essence. The human body as it is cannot survive out of this environment. It HAS to be changed intrinsically.

864 posted on 01/13/2012 12:32:04 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: Jvette; editor-surveyor
>> He is not speaking of Christ here, otherwise, he would be saying that Jesus was subject to sin, which is heresy.<<

Was Christ not full human?

865 posted on 01/13/2012 12:33:09 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear

The Incarnation.

God Himself sent us an image of Himself. Now I will agree to form an image and claim that it is God the Father and to adore such an image would be idolatry. But to replicate in art our idea of what Jesus looked like when He was in His human body is not idolatry. To adore that image as if it really were Christ and not just a depiction of Him would be idolatry.

Unless you think Christ is a graven image. Which I am sure you don’t.

God the Father is spirit and it would be impossible to make an image of Him. The 2nd commandment which you bludgeon Catholics with forbids the making of images that are worshipped as gods (idols). That’s the whole you shall not bow down and worship them. But perhaps you believe the first part of the that passage is a stand alone part. If you do then I assume you follow the Islam or Amish practice of not permitting any photos or other depictions of the natural world.

Abstract art is o.k. though so your walls don’t have to be bare. Though I think Amish may believe collecting art is vanity and a sign of pride.


866 posted on 01/13/2012 12:35:22 PM PST by lastchance ("Nisi credideritis, non intelligetis" St. Augustine)
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To: lastchance

What baffles me is how millions of catholics cxan ignore God’s word, and willingly march into hellfire for their beloved traditions, yet refusing the word of God, and the gift of God.


867 posted on 01/13/2012 12:35:34 PM PST by editor-surveyor (No Federal Sales Tax - No Way!)
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To: smvoice; metmom; CynicalBear
I would include "apparitions" and "visions" of Mary in this, too. For SURE.

ABSOLUTELY. The images of the Roman Mary are very probably more recognizable world wide than any other. That must have a purpose.

868 posted on 01/13/2012 12:35:49 PM PST by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: D-fendr
...As opposed to GOD'S definition of idolatry. You know, the One Who gave us His Word. And HIS definitions. As in Exodus, where He TELLS us what idolatry is. And Romans. Where He TELLS us what idolatry is. TO HIM.

But what does that matter..it's what is means to the Catholic Church that matters../s

869 posted on 01/13/2012 12:38:27 PM PST by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing is for an eternity..)
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To: D-fendr; editor-surveyor; presently no screen name; smvoice; RnMomof7; metmom; boatbums; caww
>>Is this an idol?<<

You already admitted that they are in the likeness of man and meant to portray God.

Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

There can be no doubt that those images fit the passage of Romans 1:22

870 posted on 01/13/2012 12:40:29 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: smvoice

Well you are not Catholic so you are free to define it as you see fit and need to worry about the Iconoclastic controversy.


871 posted on 01/13/2012 12:44:51 PM PST by lastchance ("Nisi credideritis, non intelligetis" St. Augustine)
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To: Jvette
>>Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.<<

In Matthew 16 Jesus is talking to all of the Apostles. They were all asked the question of who they thought He was. Though Peter was the one who answered for the group Jesus was talking to them all. When Peter said that they believed He was “Christ the Son of the Living God” Jesus replied and said that it was not flesh and blood that had revealed that to Peter but that it was “my Father which is in heaven”. He then says to Peter “and thou art Peter”, acknowledging that He knew who Peter was just as Peter knew who Jesus was. Then Jesus, referring back to “my Father which is in heaven”, says, “upon this rock I will build my church”.

In other places in scripture Jesus is referred to as the “corner stone”, but the rock that the church is build on is the Father.

If you want reference to God as the Rock here are some verses.

Deut. 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

2 Sam. 22:2 And he said, The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; 3 The God of my rock; in him will I trust: he is my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my saviour; thou savest me from violence.

Psalm 18:31, "And who is a rock, except our God."

Isaiah 44:8, "Is there any God besides Me, or is there any other Rock? I know of none."

Rom. 9:33, "Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, and he who believes in Him will not be disappointed."

1 Cor. 3:11, "For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ,"

1 Cor. 10:4, "and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock (petras) which followed them; and the rock (petra) was Christ."

1 Pet. 2:8, speaking of Jesus says that he is "A stone of stumbling and a rock (petra) of offense"; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed."

872 posted on 01/13/2012 12:46:16 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear

Please, please tell me you do not believe that Christ could sin? Can God sin? Would God sin?

Christ is fully holy, incapable of sin. That is the nature of capital D Divinity.


873 posted on 01/13/2012 12:51:15 PM PST by lastchance ("Nisi credideritis, non intelligetis" St. Augustine)
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To: lastchance
>>To adore that image as if it really were Christ and not just a depiction of Him would be idolatry.<<

Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Do you see anything about adoring in there?

>> That’s the whole you shall not bow down and worship them.<<

Did you see anything about bowing down or worshiping in that passage?

>> But perhaps you believe the first part of the that passage is a stand alone part.<<

The passage above stands alone.

874 posted on 01/13/2012 12:51:34 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: D-fendr
You are doing, knowingly or not, comparative religion. [...]

Sure I am... Reason dictates that all the evidence must needfully apply. Surely the Roman church understands the need for reason.

[...] In this case Christianity with ancient myths - and denouncing any similarities in Christianity.

Firstly, Mithras worship is not a myth - the procedures, rites, and rituals are historically defined.

And as to similarities, of course: YHWH states explicitly not to do as the heathens do and apply it as worship to Him... He finds that to be an abomination... The implication IS comparative.

If this is your position, integrity would say: do the same for Christ.

I have. Christ, as Rome teaches, could not withstand that scrutiny. But Yeshua, the Hebrew Messiah surely can.

875 posted on 01/13/2012 12:52:32 PM PST by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: editor-surveyor

I rejoice in God’s gift of Salvation.

I know my Reedemer lives and is seated at the right hand of God.


876 posted on 01/13/2012 12:53:22 PM PST by lastchance ("Nisi credideritis, non intelligetis" St. Augustine)
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To: CynicalBear
I'll take that as a yes. Da Vinci's Last Supper and Michelangelo's Sisteen Chapel are idols. This, by itself, tells us something about your ability to recognize idols and therefore proclaim idolatry for others.

Are these folks, therefore, idol worshipers? Why or why not?


877 posted on 01/13/2012 12:54:30 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: roamer_1

Since the message of the apparitions that have been approved for private devotion are very consistent with their message, which is; repent and return to Christ for a great chastisement is coming; I would presume the purpose was to make the faithful take heed of their sins and to get right with God.


878 posted on 01/13/2012 12:56:24 PM PST by lastchance ("Nisi credideritis, non intelligetis" St. Augustine)
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To: D-fendr; bonfire
Honestly, are you guys completely ignorant about where you are going here?

What does your link have to do with the Mary/Fatima connection (which was the subject bonfire was replying to)?

879 posted on 01/13/2012 12:56:41 PM PST by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: CynicalBear

****Scripture clearly states that making images of God is against His will and gives clear results for doing so.***

***What does “changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man” mean to you?***

As this is from Romans, we should look to Romans in the context in which this is written so that we can understand fully what lesson Paul is trying to impart to us.

***23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.***

Note that this does not say say “making images of God” as you imagine it to say. Rather nay, it says “changing the uncorruptible God into the image of corruptible man.”

Paul is speaking here of men who knew the glory and power and attributes of God but who did not, and in fact, even refused to acknowledge God’s glory.

“21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

So, you understand that Paul is saying that, though God had revealed Himself to them, they did not think Him worthy of their worship, but instead had made God as just another created being.

Paul says, they have no excuse, they know God but do not worship Him as they should and therefore God has given them up to their own foolishness and unrighteousness.

****25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.****

***30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.***

Paul is not speaking here of physical images of God, but the image of God that these backbiters, haters of God etc...
preach and follow.

Nice try though.


880 posted on 01/13/2012 12:57:47 PM PST by Jvette
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To: roamer_1; smvoice; metmom
>>That must have a purpose.<<

Of course it does. As the world religions begin to move together those who are Catholics had better take heed.

881 posted on 01/13/2012 12:58:26 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: stonehouse01
Not important?? If she had said no - hadn’t “done the task” - there would be no incarnate Jesus, therefor no salvation. Not important??

In that case, all the credit actually goes to Eve...Had she not sinned, there would be no Catholic Church...You and I wouldn't exist...

Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

It is flat out ludicrous to even consider that Mary saying no would have changed the course of the kingdom that was prepared from the foundation of the world...

Luk 14:29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,
Luk 14:30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Guess God would have been pretty miffed had Mary said no...What, with all the planning that he put into it...

And all that Old Testament stuff...God would have had to of tossed the OT had Mary said no...

Hey, I wonder if God might have predestinated Mary as well...Apparently not...Your religion says no...

1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Course, you guys may be right...Let's kick God off that throne and put Mary up there...The entire course of the earth and heaven rested on Mary's shoulders; whether she would say yes or no...Mary could have stopped the fulfillment of God's plan; stop him dead in his tracks...

Mary, Queen of Creation...

882 posted on 01/13/2012 12:59:11 PM PST by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: CynicalBear; lastchance
Do you see anything about adoring in there?… Did you see anything about bowing down or worshiping in that passage?…

Ok.. Let's explore your view and see what happens.

Is anyone who looks at it guilty of idolatry? Anyone who walks past it? Only the painter who created it? Anyone who doesn't destroy it?

Just where is the idolatry here and why?

883 posted on 01/13/2012 1:01:27 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: roamer_1
What does your link have to do with the Mary/Fatima connection

If you compare figures in Christianity with figures in myths and denounce any similarities, then do it. You can't do one and not others. Not and maintain integrity.

Your method and approach are a mainstay of atheism. You're just trying to apply it where you want to and not apply where you don't. It bites you in the rear whether you like it or not.

884 posted on 01/13/2012 1:05:40 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: lastchance
Since the message of the apparitions that have been approved for private devotion are very consistent with their message, which is; repent and return to Christ for a great chastisement is coming; I would presume the purpose was to make the faithful take heed of their sins and to get right with God.

Of course, I will differ from you, lastchance, though hopefully amicably.

I did a study of Marian visions and messages. Granted, it has been a few years ago, and I am rusty on the subject, but I found way too much "consecrate to ME", and "MY immaculate heart" going on in it all... ME, ME, ME, MY, MY, MY... I know that is a generality, but it is the impression I was left with. I realize there is a message, as you define above, but it is secondary to the subject at hand, which is the apparition herself.

I find that to be disconcerting. YHWH's messengers (angels do this work generally) do not focus anything on themselves. the focus is always toward YHWH, to include the prophets and Christ Himself.

885 posted on 01/13/2012 1:09:27 PM PST by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: Jvette

Oh good grief. You didn’t notice that all of that is after God “gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts”? Verse 30 on is as a result of the images they made and then God “gave them up”. The CC twists scripture to try to excuse the images and idols they love.


886 posted on 01/13/2012 1:12:02 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: lastchance
>> Christ is fully holy, incapable of sin. That is the nature of capital D Divinity.<<

Was Christ “fully man” or only partially man?

887 posted on 01/13/2012 1:15:20 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear

That passage as well as the 2nd Commandment refers to idolatry. The worshipping of graven images. It is indeed a reference to the religious practices of the Gentiles which included such foul practices as temple prostitution and gay sex.

“Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Despite having the Truth of God revealed to them, they turned away from God and made graven images which they said were truly God or gods take your pick and worshipped those images. Paul, in case you have forgotten was outlining how man had fallen away from God and proclaiming that Christ died for us.

There is nothing in that chapter of Romans to suggest that the making of an image (as in art) in and of itself is forbidden.


888 posted on 01/13/2012 1:16:20 PM PST by lastchance ("Nisi credideritis, non intelligetis" St. Augustine)
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To: lastchance; roamer_1
>>I would presume the purpose was to make the faithful take heed of their sins and to get right with God.<<

Or prepare them for the coming anti Christ who will convince them that he is the Christ.

889 posted on 01/13/2012 1:19:09 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: D-fendr
>>Just where is the idolatry here and why?<<

Anyone who believes it depicts God and gives it credence.

Now tell me. Would you destroy those and all statues just to be on the safe side or are they too valuable to you?

890 posted on 01/13/2012 1:24:23 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear; Jvette; lastchance; smvoice
Sorry for the size, but this is a picture of a fresco from the catacombs at Rome, the early Church there. The bodies of martyrs are nearby.

Here they celebrated Holy Eucharist as taught by Christ in the Last Supper. All liturgies since are modeled on the liturgy here. There are frescos illustrating the life of Christ as well as OT figures.

The question is the same: Were they practicing idolatry?


891 posted on 01/13/2012 1:26:09 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: CynicalBear; Jvette; boatbums; smvoice; caww; RnMomof7

***1 Corinthians15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.***

Paul here is reinforcing the Truth that the flesh and blood of man cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, that animal sacrifice cannot open the gates of heaven for us.

But, and this is MOST important, Jesus was not mere man, though fully human. Jesus was also fully divine, God. It is precisely because Jesus is the Son of God and the Son of Man that no other flesh and blood could do what His did, i.e.be offered as True and Complete Sacrifice for our redemption.

Jesus’ body was not subject to sin and was therefore, incorruptible, unlike us who are mere human and had need of Jesus as Savior to inherit.

Corruption does not inherit incorruption meaning quite simply, again, that no other human could have been offered as sacrifice for sin. Jesus was the only human not corrupt.

***If you claim it was the same body after resurrection as it was before you must deny that Jesus was truly human.***

Not at all. The body which rose, was the body which was born, lived, died and was buried and was then raised up.

Jesus says this Himself.

Luke 24:39
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Jesus was the first fruit, the One in whom the promises of God are delivered unto us.

The conclusion that what I have written in any way denies that Jesus was truly human is another error. In fact, the exact opposite is true. The case you make is much like that of those who denied Jesus had a truly human body both BEFORE and AFTER His death.


892 posted on 01/13/2012 1:26:33 PM PST by Jvette
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To: D-fendr; roamer_1
>>You're just trying to apply it where you want to and not apply where you don't.<<

So are the statues of Buda idols? What about the images in Egypt?

893 posted on 01/13/2012 1:28:03 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: D-fendr
Your method and approach are a mainstay of atheism.

Except that the method is applied in directly the opposite fashion. I have proven to my satisfaction that the Bible is TRUE. And in proving that, the Bible can be applied as a sure standard... a measuring rod as it were. Things that don't measure up can be discarded...

Atheists do not have such a standard to measure by, and therein lies their fault. Furthermore, many of the points they settle upon go away if one looks to Yeshua rather than the Greek/Roman Christ. It is a subtle difference, but a more Hebrew mindset opens one's eyes.

For instance, YHWH's insistence that He be worshiped in a particular fashion... *not* to introduce heathen customs as forms of worship to Him. Did YHWH change His mind? Heaven forbid! But here we are today with a worship system that in no way resembles what HE defined. It is an astonishment to understand that every pagan holy day is revered in Christianity, but not ONE of YHWH's Holy Days is observed... Not a single one. Doesn't that bother you?

894 posted on 01/13/2012 1:28:29 PM PST by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: Jvette
The passages you cite do not say that Jesus’ body is no longer human, or that it was glorified. In fact, Scripture makes pains to emphasize that the risen body of Jesus was the same body and still human, because Jesus’ resurrected body still bore His wounds and He ate with them.

Jesus looks like anything he wants to look like at any given time...He appears as a lamb, a lion, a frightening figure to the Apostle John, and in the OT Jesus showed up as an angel and took on the appearance of different men...

Mar 16:12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

This ought to be clear to anyone that Jesus does not look like he did as his appearance in the flesh...

When we read before and after this passage, we understand that Jesus is speaking of His Ascension, not His resurrection. We know this because after His resurrection, He was seen and heard and touched.

Nope...Jesus was not touched before his ascension...

Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

895 posted on 01/13/2012 1:29:06 PM PST by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: metmom

Where in my post did I imply that Mary’s perpetual virginity had anything to do with salvation? You read way too much into my post.

BTW, I’d be interested in knowing of any Protestant leader who’s comfortable that dogma.


896 posted on 01/13/2012 1:30:18 PM PST by phil413
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To: lastchance; roamer_1; D-fendr; smvoice; boatbums; metmom; caww

The intense and vitriolic defense of Catholic statues and images is telling.


897 posted on 01/13/2012 1:38:23 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear
Anyone who believes it depicts God and gives it credence.

So all the visitors in the picture who know what the painting depicts are idolaters. Ok. I think we see where your view leads.

Look at this picture:

Think this is a depiction of Jesus at the last supper?

Answer yes and you're an idolater.

Would you destroy those and all statues just to be on the safe side or are they too valuable to you?

Based on your views of idolatry? No, I don't think your opinion on idolatry is worth anything as you've demonstrated here.

Your method of scriptural interpretation fails and along with it your personal interpretation. Resulting in absurdity, incapable of surviving the slightest examination.

So, no, personally, I wouldn't change the channel based on your opinion.

898 posted on 01/13/2012 1:43:26 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: roamer_1
Except that the method is applied in directly the opposite fashion.

Your method is applied in exactly the same fashion as atheist. You just want to pick and choose where to apply it.

899 posted on 01/13/2012 1:46:12 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: editor-surveyor

So, are you saying that the human Jesus needed a Savior?

Think about this... because Jesus says that He lays down His life and He will take it back up again. No one could take it from Him.

John 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

***They cannot withstand the presence of God, just as Christ’s could not, until it was changed.***

Where does Scripture say this about Christ?

Think about the Transfiguration. Jesus is seen by the three Apostles in His glory. His physical body, not a spirit but the body which was born and died. And this before His death and resurrection.

Tell me then, since you seem to be saying that the human body of Jesus needed a Savior, when do you believe He was redeemed?


900 posted on 01/13/2012 1:46:32 PM PST by Jvette
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