Posted on 01/18/2012 3:19:15 PM PST by NYer
.- Pope Benedict XVI said today that achieving Christian unity requires more than “cordiality and cooperation” and that it must be accompanied by interior conversion.
“Faith in Christ and interior conversion, both individual and communal, must constantly accompany our prayer for Christian unity,” said the Pope to over 8,000 pilgrims gathered in the Vatican’s Paul VI Audience Hall on Jan. 18.
The Pope’s comments mark the start of the 2012 Week of Prayer for Christian Unity that runs until Jan. 25. It will be observed by over 300 Christian churches and ecclesial communities around the globe.
The Pope asked for “the Lord in a particular way to strengthen the faith of all Christians, to change our hearts and to enable us to bear united witness to the Gospel.”
In this way, he said, they “will contribute to the new evangelization and respond ever more fully to the spiritual hunger of the men and women of our time.”
The Pope explained that the concept of a week of prayer for Christian unity was initiated in 1908 by Paul Wattson, an Episcopalian minister from Maryland. One year later, he became a Catholic and was subsequently ordained to the priesthood.
Pope Benedict recalled how the initiative was supported by his predecessors Pope St. Pius X and Pope Benedict XV. It was then “developed and perfected” in the 1930s by the Frenchman Abbé Paul Couturier, who promoted prayer “for the unity of the Church as Christ wishes and according to the means he wills.”
The mandate for the week of prayer, the Pope underscored, comes from the wish of Christ himself at the Last Supper “that they may all be one.” He observed that this mission was given a particular impetus by the Second Vatican Council (1962-65) but added that “the unity we strive for cannot result merely from our own efforts.” Rather, “it is a gift we receive and must constantly invoke from on high.”
The theme for 2012 Week of Prayer – “All shall be changed by the victory of Jesus Christ our Lord” – was crafted by the Polish Ecumenical Council. Pope Benedict said it reflects “their own experience as a nation,” which stayed faithful to Christ “in the midst of trials and upheavals,” including years of occupation by the Nazis and later the Communists.
The Pope tied the victory the Polish people experienced over their oppressors to overcoming the disunity that marks Christians.
He said that the “unity for which we pray requires inner conversion, both shared and individual,” and it cannot be “limited to cordiality and cooperation.” Instead, Christians must accept “all the elements of unity which God has conserved for us.”
Ecumenism, the Pope stated, is not an optional extra for Catholics but is “the responsibility of the entire Church and of all the baptized.” Christians, he said, must make praying for unity an “integral part” of their prayer life, “especially when people from different traditions come together to work for victory in Christ over sin, evil, injustice and the violation of human dignity.”
Pope Benedict then touched on the lack of unity in the Christian community, which he said “hinders the effective announcement of the Gospel and endangers our credibility.” Evangelizing formerly Christian countries and spreading the Gospel to new places will be “more fruitful if all Christians together announce the truth of the Gospel and Jesus Christ, and give a joint response to the spiritual thirst of our times,” he explained.
The Pope concluded his comments with the hope that this year’s Week of Prayer for Christian Unity will lead to “increased shared witness, solidarity and collaboration among Christians, in expectation of that glorious day when together we will all be able to celebrate the Sacraments and profess the faith transmitted by the Apostles.”
The general audience finished with Pope Benedict addressing pilgrims in various languages, including greeting a group of men and women from the U.S. Navy and Marine Corps, before leading the crowd in the Our Father and imparting his apostolic blessing.
****But I don’t accept another’s teachings because they said it. It just turns out that my belief matches theirs because they’re both based on the same Bible. If their teaching is from Scripture, I would have got there anyway. Hearing it may have speeded up the process but I don’t accept stuff just because of who said it.****
Sure. So, if one believes baptism is necessary, but someone else believes it’s not, who is right? And, if one believes that Sunday worship is necessary, and someone else believes it’s not, who is right? Or if one believes that Jesus was not God, the Second Person of the Trinity and someone else believes that He’s not, who is right? Or if someone says that Jesus didn’t bodily rise from the dead and neither shall we, and others believe that Jesus’ body did rise from the dead and so too shall we, who is right?
They can all appeal to Scripture in a fine game of name that verse, so, who is right? What is true? What does Scripture say?
Well, Scripture says that the church is the pillar and bulwark of truth, not you, not me, not Joe Schmoe pastor, or armchair theologians, but the Church. And if what Scripture says is true then there must be a Church, one that can be appealed to in the search for truth.
****Catholics need to get their eyes off man and following men, and a good start would be to realize that not everybody thinks like they’ve been conditioned to think. Just because Catholics have been trained to follow men, doesn’t mean that everyone else does.****
Catholics eyes are firmly on the Lord.
****Of course, in addition Jesus said He was the door and the vine. Please explain why Catholics don’t take that literally.... Should He not be made of wood or leaves? Or was He lying there as well?****
Show me the Scripture where Jesus held up a door or a vine and said, “This is my body”.
It certainly doesn't say the CATHOLIC CHURCH is the pillar and foundation of truth. The RCC just hijacked that verse and decided it applied to them.
Not accepting it.
ROTFL.
I believe Jesus Christ who said:
Luke 22:19 And taking bread, he gave thanks and brake and gave to them, saying: This is my body, which is given for you. Do this for a commemoration of me.
Luke 22:20 In like manner, the chalice also, after he had supped, saying: This is the chalice, the new testament in my blood, which shall be shed for you.
I do not believe someone who claims what Jesus Christ said in Luke 22:19 and 22:20 is not true and worships their own Most High and Holy Self whether such an individual is substituting the word 'wafer' for the word 'bread' in an attempt to avoid a direct quotation of Jesus Christ or routinely substituting their own personal interpretation of Scripture for the Word of God by claiming, "that's what Scripture says, but that's not what it means". And I especially would not believe anyone so dull and unfamiliar with His Word that they cannot understand the difference between a portion of a thing and the thing itself in it's entirety.
Anyone who cares to can deny the deity of Christ and in doing so, prove they are not Christian no matter what they may chose to call themselves. Such folks are more often than not already blind to such an extent that they cannot understand His Word and cannot stop worshiping their own Most High and Holy Self because they've already been given over to a reprobate mind. Given that such folks have been shown the Truth of His Word on multiple occasions and on every one of those occasions have refused to accept His Word as true:
Titus 3:9 but avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law. For they are unprofitable and vain.
Titus 3:10 A man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, avoid:
Titus 3:11 Knowing that he, that is such an one, is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned by his own judgment.
Unless and until such an individual surrenders to Christ, showing them the Truth in the Scriptures is just throwing pearls before swine.
Asked you whether you believe that the wafer is God. It’s a yes or no answer. If you do not believe the wafer is God are you denying Christ? What’s so hard? Are you denying Christ like Peter did? Or is the wafer not really God?
So you do believe the waver is really God?
If you take the whole discourse literally, that leaves you with problems, such as......
verse 29: Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”
Why don't Catholics accept this? Why do they add conditions and works to salvation?
verse 35: 35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.
Jesus said He was bread. Is He made out of wheat or bread dough? That IS literal.
Do those who take communion in the form of the eucharist ever get hungry or thirsty again? He said they wouldn't if they ate His flesh? Why isn't that taken literally? Why have to repeat communion regularly? Don't Catholics believe what Jesus said? Why the repeat eating?
verse 37: All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
Imagine that, the security of the believer. Then why do Catholics doubt that they'll make it to heaven and won't find out if they're saved until they get there? Was Jesus lying?
verse 39-40: 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
Salvation by faith, simply believing. Do you take that literally or not? Or was Jesus lying here, too? Didn't He mean what He said?
OK, literally here again......
verses 47-51: 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”
Do Catholics die? They claim they eat the literal flesh and blood of Christ based on this passage. Then they must also believe that they must literally never die. Not just spiritual death and truth, but since they think they eat the literal, physical body of Jesus, then must, in order to be consistent and interpret literally, believe that they will never die, physically and literally.
Period.
If someone interprets this passage as revealing spiritual realities, speaking of spiritual truthes, that the feeding on the flesh of blood of Christ is done in a spiritual sense, not a literal, physical sense, none of these questions is an issue. The interpretation can be consistent within the passage and consistent with the rest of the written word of God that FORBIDS the eating of blood.
John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
The SPIRIT gives life. Not the eucharist. The flesh, the physical, is no help at all.
****yet the Catholic Church bases much of it’s beliefs on word of mouth accounts sometimes hundreds of years removed from eyewitness accounts.****
You realize that both the gospels of Mark and Luke are second hand accounts. Neither was an eyewitness or original disciple of Jesus. Accepting, of course, that the authorship of both are who they are believed to be.
Mark was a companion to Peter and Luke to Paul. So that would make at least two gospels second hand accounts.
Also, there is not one existing original manuscript. All that we have are copies of copies.
And lastly, the written word comes from the oral tradition and not the other way around.
When one accepts the Bible as writings inspired by God, one must do so on faith. A faith in something/someone who exists eternally, who is the creator of all things and who is the sustainer of all things. A faith that is not of our making, but a gift of God and one that is kindled in us by someone telling us about God and Jesus and leading us to His revelation.
Without that faith, the Bible is a collection of myths and legends and familial stories. Just ask any atheist.
You are right, there is only one Christianity and one Church and that is the Catholic Christian Church.
Keep pretending I didn’t prove what you said is WRONG.
There are some here who may be convinced.
*****The SPIRIT gives life. Not the eucharist. The flesh, the physical, is no help at all. *****
Again, YOUR flesh avails nothing, Jesus’ avails everything.
His flesh was united with the Spirit of God and it was true flesh that suffered and died, just as He said it is true food and true drink.
****Do those who take communion in the form of the eucharist ever get hungry or thirsty again?****
That question was stupid the first thousand times it was posed. Jesus was not speaking here of hunger of the stomach but that of the soul.
Of course, I’m guessing that is known, but then that stupid, “so there!” question couldn’t be asked, could it?
****Imagine that, the security of the believer. Then why do Catholics doubt that they’ll make it to heaven and won’t find out if they’re saved until they get there? Was Jesus lying?****
< John 15 >>
King James Version
1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. 9As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 10If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love. 11These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full. ‘
****Then they must also believe that they must literally never die.****
Jesus does not say here that the body will never die. The Eucharist nourished the soul, not the body, but both will have eternal life with God after the final judgement when there is the resurrection of the body.
1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery. We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
Ephesians 5:14 Therefore he says, “Awake, you who sleep, and arise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.”
1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus
1 Thessalonians 5:10 who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
The death of the body is not death of the person.
Another mature spiritual rebuttal.
FOTFLOL!!!!!
Couldn’t see that one coming...../s
I pegged that one.
Maybe I should buy a lottery ticket.
Sure. It’s literal except when it’s not (convenient).
So eating is literal and physical but the dying Jesus said wasn’t going to happen to those who physically ate isn’t.
I’ve been to a lot of Catholic funerals. I guess all that physical eating didn’t result in them not dying physically.
Oh, but all of a sudden, it’s *spiritual* truth.
right.....
In Lazarus and in Jairus’ daughter Jesus tells us what death of the body is.
Jesus tells the disciples that Lazarus sleeps, meaning his body has died.
Jesus tells Jairus that his daughter has not died, she sleeps.
Jesus is showing us by the raising up of these two that the physical death of the body is sleeping in the Lord.
So, it is again the unity of the spiritual and physical, which is what Jesus was all about. The body united to Spirit of God, does not die, but awaits resurrection, i.e.sleeps in the Lord.
I believe Jesus when He said, “this is my body.”
The bread, after the words of consecration is no longer mere bread, but the body of Christ, just as He said.
Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.
The union of the spiritual and the physical.
That is Jesus, and that is who my faith rests in.
Boston 1679-1681
Well, let’s look at Luke.
Luke 1:1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us, 2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word; 3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,
We know that Luke was with Paul. Should we take his words that he was and eyewitness?
As for Mark, he was more than a follower of Peter wasn’t he. In fact when Peter came to the house of Mary the mother of John Mark (Acts 12:11-12) Barnabas took him with them (Acts 15:37) when they left didn’t he. In fact, wasn’t Peter married to one of John Marks father’s relatives? I do believe that when John Mark’s father died Peter took John Mark in and raised him thus calling him “Marcus my son”. (1 Peter 5:13) I do believe that that would qualify him to be considered an eyewitness. Mark actually did much of Peter’s writing didn’t he?
LOL, woooo hoooo, funny stuff indeed.
I believe Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ said His flesh and His blood are present in our remembrance of Him. Anyone who denies that His flesh and His blood are present in the Eucharist is calling Christ a liar. It makes no difference whether or not someone can understand how God Almighty, the Son of God Jesus Christ incarnate, makes His flesh and His blood present in the Eucharist. Jesus Christ said His flesh and His blood are present in the Eucharist and each person has to decide for themselves whether they believe Jesus Christ or they do not believe Jesus Christ. If they do not believe Jesus Christ and deny that His flesh and His blood are present in the Eucharist, they are calling Jesus Christ the Son of God a liar.
There is no other question. Not whether a communion Host is God or not, whether a recliner becomes a human when someone sits in that recliner, or whether someone likes the idea of His flesh and His blood really being present in the Eucharist. There is only the question of whether someone believes what Jesus Christ Himself said or they do not believe what Jesus Christ Himself said. If they do not believe what Christ said and by not believing call Christ a liar, they are by definition denying the deity of Jesus Christ the Son of God, God from God, incarnate in the flesh as our Savior.
A person can accept what Christ says by faith and believe Christ is God, they can accept what Christ says because it's clear and understandable to them and believe Christ is God, or they can deny what Christ says thereby calling Christ a liar who therefore cannot be God. Whether someone accepts or denies what Jesus Christ said is is a question they have to answer for them self.
Understandably, those who worship their own Most High and Holy Self do not have faith in Christ because they have no room for Christ. Sharing Scriptures with such folks is just like throwing pearls before swine. In those cases :
Titus 3:9 but avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law. For they are unprofitable and vain.
Titus 3:10 A man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, avoid:
Titus 3:11 Knowing that he, that is such an one, is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned by his own judgment.
Those who continue to deny the deity of Christ can fool themselves however they like, but they should get used to the idea of hearing, "I never knew you" from the very Jesus Christ they deny is God.
God’s Church doesn’t have pagan worship and popes. JESUS is the head of HIS church. And HIS WORD reigns there. RCC doesn’t fit that bill AT ALL and wanting it so doesn’t make it so.
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