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To: D-fendr
I understand the Catholic Church's Doctrine of Infallibility. What is curious, in the previous post where I showed that certain Popes made ex-cathedra pronouncements, you made no comment at all at the blatant contradiction that resulted when subsequent Popes, in essence, overrule their predessesors. That wasn't the only example in the link. What you condemn non-Catholics for, in reading Scripture and understanding doctrines that go against those established by Rome, you fail to admit that Catholics basically have the same freedom with Scriptures not "infallibly" defined already by the Magesterium. In truth, very few Scripture verses have been interpreted infallibly for Catholics. You guys are kind of in the same boat.

Yet, on the basic tenets of the Christian faith with regard to the person and nature of God, Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit, salvation, heaven and judgment, there is very little leeway or difference between us. Of course, the "biggie" is salvation by grace through faith versus faith plus works, and there is no need for an outside infallible source when we have the infallible Holy Scriptures. I believe the Bible is quite clear regarding this major doctrine and it is why I and those along with me keep posting those Scriptures so that the Holy Spirit opens the eyes of those who seek the truth.

You want to stand next to your Magesterium with their infallible "traditions" to explain to me that what I can read for myself is not what it really means. All the while, the Holy Spirit is speaking to my heart saying, "Don't listen to them, hear me.". God's word is clear, maybe not about every single thing, but on this it is simply put, we are saved by the grace of God, not by what we do, only by our faith in what he did for us.

We can get bogged down in the little things - which delights the devil, BTW - and miss the MAIN thing, the Gospel. Once that is understood and accepted, God opens up the rest as we study, learn and grow in our faith. I've been a student of the Bible for over forty years and I still get awed by it. It is a deep, rich, deep ocean of treasure of which we can only hope to plunge in and explore the mind of God, in only the limited way human minds are capable. I don't have to know it all. I don't have to be infallible or rely on someone or something else that is, because it comes from God. Not just the words on paper but the spirit of truth.

    Job 11:7-9
    “Can you fathom the mysteries of God? Can you probe the limits of the Almighty? They are higher than the heavens above—what can you do? They are deeper than the depths below—what can you know? Their measure is longer than the earth and wider than the sea.

Thanks for the conversation. I hope you have a peaceful night.

1,245 posted on 02/01/2012 10:21:28 PM PST by boatbums (Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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To: boatbums

I appreciate you pointing out that Catholics have a great deal of freedom in reading and understanding Holy Scripture. We allow that it can have many levels of meaning and can relate quite personally.

However, as you point out, there are limits and Catholics cannot teach interpretations against dogma and doctrine of the orthodox faith.

Of course, there are no limits outside the Church, or rather for the church of the individual. Any and all doctrine or dogma is allowed.

I don’t see the differences as little things. The ‘hidden truths’ of dispensationalism - rediscovered in the last century - for example. Preposterous to those not of this teaching.

And salvation by election? Radically different than salvation by grace through faith.

Then there’s Unitarians of several stripes, Modalists, Monarchists, and Universalists. Key differences in Christology and soteriology. And, as we see today, the fracture of mainline protestant churches on Christian morals.

Sola scriptura is not scriptural and just too stupid an idea to be of any value in creating or sustaining the Apostolic Church. Not Christ’s idea, not Paul’s idea, not the one holy universal and apostolic Church idea.

In history we see what has resulted. Luther’s fear that every milkmaid becomes a theologian is realized. And where once there was the Christian Church, there arose the Lutheran Church, then Zwingli, then Calvin, then Anglican, Methodist, Episcopal, Baptist, then NonAnything... each individual his/her own faith, creed, and confession.

From Church to many churches, to unchurched - and darn proud of it!

The “One Lord, one faith, one baptism” of the New Testament Church? There could hardly be anything further from it imaginable short of atheism.

And thank you also for your courteous discussion. Hope you are sleeping well and have a glorious morning.


1,250 posted on 02/02/2012 12:43:17 AM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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