Posted on 02/07/2012 4:57:57 PM PST by bibletruth
Bible proof in Acts 26, 22, Romans 2, and Ephesians 3, that God and Christ made HIS choice for Paul to be HIS Apostle to the Gentiles
Ephesians 3:7: Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
Remember, these are God's WORDs, not men's words. Take heed.
The Bible contains not one word supporting the idea that Mathias ever actually achieved the function of an apostle.
Apostles are appointed by YHWH, not men.
There just seems no way to reconcile this to me....just curious...why it is worded the way it was...
>> “Didn’t he teach them things that he did not give sermons on as scripture said he told them many things that all the world could not hold everything” <<
.
No!
It says that he DID many things. Everything he told them is written in the gospels.
Its very important to understand that God did not give Paul a “thorn in the flesh” nor did He prevent the removal of said “thorn in the flesh.” A misunderstanding of this verse has kept far too many Christians in bondage for centuries.
Look at the ministry of Jesus. If you have seen him, you have seen the Father. Jesus never made anyone sick. If he happened on a funeral, they could not keep the person in the casket. He healed and supplied every need for everyone with faith. John 10:10 tells us the thief (satan) comes to steal, kill and destroy. Jesus came to give life in abundance.
Satan and his demonic spirits are at work in the world today. Jesus encountered them almost daily in his earthly ministry. As Believers, we have complete authority over them in Jesus’ name. Whether you believe they exist or not is irrelevant to their existence - the Bible is clear on this point. We do not need to fear them, because we have authority over them. But you need to understand their methods and rely on the Holy Spirit to help you discern their attacks and how and when to take authority over them.
Now back to Paul’s thorn. Thorn in the flesh is a figure of speech like “pain in the neck.” In 2 Corinthians, Paul is establishing his authority, combating false prophets that have been undermining the Gospel. He even admits a reluctance to boast, but feels it necessary to counter the false prophets. (ch 10-11) Starting in 2 Cor 12, he relates his experiences with visions and revelations. He heard words that “cannot be told.”
God was exalting Paul and giving him spiritual Wisdom and understanding that was a threat to satan who opposes all of God’s work. This wisdom is contained in his letters and lays out the full plan of redemption. Starting with verse 7, Paul says I was given a thorn in the flesh. In the SAME sentence, he tells you EXACTLY what that was - a messenger of Satan to torment me. If you look at the history of Paul’s journeys, you will see constant spiritual attacks against Paul whereever he taught.
This is a form of persecution that all Believers face in life who get serious about the Lord’s work. But it seems to be especially targeted on Paul because of the spiritual Truth he was teaching. Spiritual attacks manifest in the natural world in various forms of persecution - lies, physical attacks, torment etc. The words of Jesus would be helpful here: (Matthew 13 & Mark 4) When you sow the Word, the devil comes immediately to try an steal it. What Paul was teaching, HAD to be stopped. The revelation of who and what we are in Christ makes us very dangerous to satan and his minions.
As Believers, Jesus already won the victory for us. We are to occupy until Jesus returns, putting satan under our feet and Jesus’ feet - Jesus is the head of the Body of Christ which is us. Note also on the Damascus road Jesus says that Saul was persecuting HIM (Christians/Body of Christ/Church/Believers). He takes attacks against his children personally.
Paul’s writing in Ephesians is especially relevant: For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. (6:12)
The thorn was not sickness, or bad eyes, or any physical ailment. In the previous post I listed several verses where Paul talked about the persecutions he experienced (BTW - you cannot separate Paul from his ministry). The Lord delivered him from them all. That would confirm that the “thorn” was eventually removed as well.
Let’s look at specific examples of the persecution and God’s grace at work in Paul’s life. Throughout Acts, you see Paul preaching, having success and then comes persecution. Whether its stoning, beatings or prison, Paul is delivered. Now look at Acts 18:9-10 - where Jesus tells Paul to speak out and don’t be afraid - I am with you and nobody will harm you.
In Acts 13 he strongly rebuked the sorcerer Elymas and accused him of being a son of the devil. What was his crime? He was trying to turn the governor away from the Christian faith. After the rebuke, that “thorn” that was attacking his ministry was removed.
And consider the fortune teller slave girl in Philippi who harassed them constantly. Once Paul knew what he was dealing with he commanded the demon to come out of the woman (Acts 16:16-40) who was undermining the Gospel and the “thorn” was removed. This led to their being thrown in prison where their praise led to an earthquake and the salvation of the jailer and his whole household.
God’s Grace/anointing/power/favor is sufficient to overcome ANY hardship or attack by the evil one. THAT was the point God was trying to get across to Paul by repeating it 3 times! Paul had to use the power and authority that God has given to Believers. Remember, we are to be imitators of Christ. What did Jesus do? He spoke to the demons, sickness, lack or whatever and they were cast out, cured and the needs met. And we are told all things are possible if we believe.
Why would anyone think that a loving God would not want this “thorn” removed from His child? What possible benefit or Glory would God get from having a messenger of Satan tormenting a child of God. And if you still think that it was bodily sickness, how could Paul glorify God in his body if he was sick? It makes no sense whatsoever. And if you think Paul was guilty of pride, God certainly would not use sickness or satan to “humble” him. Do you really think God is a child abuser? If you do, get to know your Heavenly Father a little bit better. He IS love and does not abuse His children.
God was trying to tell Paul that he had God’s power in his life to remove and overcome anything. The grace/anointing/favor is sufficient, but Paul had to exercise his authority as a man and command it to leave in the name of Jesus. We see that in action throughout his ministry in Acts (documenting his travels) and his letters - especially the latter ones.
As far as the apostle/disciple argument, I think others have covered it pretty well. Think what you will about Paul, but the selection of Matthias was purely a human endeavor. The disciples were operating out of presumption without any direction from the Holy Spirit - that would come later at Pentecost. They were told to wait for the HS and the power and wisdom that would come, but instead they went in their own direction. Remember, the Bible does record lies spoken, murders, sins and poor judgement so we can learn from the mistakes of others - that is what Paul is talking about in 2 Tim 3:16 - All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness.
Casting lots is a game of chance or luck - do a word search sometime on the source of those two words to see that it is not a Godly act for Born Again Believers. There is no evidence to suggest any special calling on Matthias’ life. Certainly we are all called in some way as Believers and I don’t want to imply that God did not in fact use him in a special way.
But Jesus did, through extraordinary means, select Paul to be a special messenger. That alone should make the concept worthy of prayerful meditation. Paul’s impact on the Church cannot be dismissed as being anything less than highly Blessed by God.
We are all told to preach to the world and make disciples of all the nations. We all have gifts, anointings, graces, callings on our life and fit neatly together to benefit all in the Body of Christ. I see no reason to spend much time on debating who is most important. Jesus should be the most important person in all discussions. Any attempts to elevate a human is dangerous and should be avoided because humans will never live up to our expectations. We are all children of God and spiritual brothers and sisters.
This has gone long, so I’ll end with Paul’s own testimony from Galatians. Dismiss it if you will, but these are not the words that anyone would write without supreme confidence in their calling.
Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead (Gal 1.1)
I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ. (Gal 1:11-12)
But when God, who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went immediately into Arabia and later returned to Damascus. (Gal 1:15-17)
Yes. My curiosity and sometimes futile inquiries into what's meant in Scripture (mostly NT) has lead me by God's grace to sort of give up and ask the Holy Spirit (not man) to show me. I think as with other things, God waits until we're worn out with our own efforts and then he lovingly and graciously meets the need. His answers are like a still, small voice and wonderful - sometimes coming though man - but the key is, in my heart, at that point, I'm looking to the Lord, not man.
The eleven apostles had been given authority to act officially in Christ's absence. (Mat.16:19, 18:18,19).
Psa. 109:8 states that another should be appointed to Judas' place.
The twelfth apostle HAD to be chosen before the kingdom could be offered at Pentecost (Matt. 19:28)Also note how Peter stands up with the eleven in Acts 2:14.
The actions of the 11 apostles in choosing the 12th was bathed in prayer. They did not proceed until after MANY DAYS OF UNITED PRAYER. (Luke 24:49,cf.Acts 1:12-15), and when two candidates were found they AGAIN prayed and left the final choice to GOD. (Acts 1:24-26).
Paul could not have been selected for many reasons, mainly because in order to be one of the 12, to qualify for a disciple one had to have followed Christ from the beginning, all during His earthly ministry, beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that He was taken up (Acts 1:21,22,cf. Matt.19:28). There probably were not many more than the two, Matthias and Joseph Barsabas, who filled that bill.
As I'm sure you already know Paul was not even saved at that time. He was busy "persecuting the church of God and laying it waste." (Gal. 1:13.
Finally, the proof that they acted in the will of God in the matter of choosing Matthias is found in the fact that the Scripture clearlly states that Matthias "was numbered with the eleven apostles" (Acts 1:26) and that, "They were ALL filled with the Holy Ghost" (Acts 2:4).
If the disciples had been out of the will of God in so important a matter as choosing the twelfth one that will one day sit upon a throne judging the twelve tribes of Israel, just as Peter and the others, they would NOT have been filled with the Holy Spirit.
Matthias would NOT have been filled with the Holy Spirit if he had not been divinely chosen for that particular position. A man out of the will of God is never filled with the Holy Spirit.
Paul numbers Matthias with the eleven when he says that the resurrected Christ was "seen...of the twelve" (1 Cor. 15:5).
Did not say he was not an Apostle, just not THE Apostle. I think you missed my point.
En-bya. (not a problem)
I would have to respectfully disagree on a few things you wrote. The first being the selection of Matthias as the twelfth Disciple as being a human endeavour.
Yes it was human. Neither Jesus or the Holy Spirit directed them to cast lots or even select a replacement. This does not mean they are evil or sinful people. They were doing the best with what understanding they had at that moment. We see time and again that the apostles continually misunderstood Jesus, doubted him and questioned him. As natural men, spiritual things were very foreign. That is why Thomas wanted to go "die" with Lazarus and John wanted to call down fire on a village and many more examples I could produce from the Gospels. They knew the prophecy from Psalm and acted without the direction of Jesus or the Holy Spirit. Do you really believe that Jesus would leave such an important decision to casting lots? Jesus who walked in perfect harmony and obedience even to death, would leave finding a replacement for Judas to a game of chance? Ponder that for a few moments.
Their spiritual nature would be changed at Pentecost and they could better receive and understand spiritual things. (John 7:37-39, John 14:15-20, John 15:26-27 and Acts 1:4-5)
When the Spirit of Truth comes, he will guide you into all truth - Read all of John 16 carefully. This is Jesus telling them to wait until the Spirit of Truth comes so they will know what to do.
The eleven apostles had been given authority to act officially in Christ's absence. (Mat.16:19, 18:18,19).
I see no relevance to the current discussion. Both the keys to the kingdom and instructions regarding binding and loosing are to all Believers.
Psa. 109:8 states that another should be appointed to Judas' place.
Prophecy in Psalms does not specify who or how the position would be filled, only that it would be filled.
The twelfth apostle HAD to be chosen before the kingdom could be offered at Pentecost (Matt. 19:28)
This may be your best evidence. Although, they did NOT sit on thrones at any point in their earthly life, nor did they judge the twelve tribes during that time. After his resurrection, Jesus would sit down at the right hand of God. The twelve selected may very well sit down at a later time and not violate the spirit of this verse.
Also note how Peter stands up with the eleven in Acts 2:14.
Acts is a historical book, not doctrinal. As far as Peter was concerned Matthias' addition made 12. But was that really God's will?
The actions of the 11 apostles in choosing the 12th was bathed in prayer. They did not proceed until after MANY DAYS OF UNITED PRAYER. (Luke 24:49,cf.Acts 1:12-15), and when two candidates were found they AGAIN prayed and left the final choice to GOD. (Acts 1:24-26).
NO, they did NOT leave the choice to God. They threw dice, a game of chance that leaves the decision to luck which at its root is lucifer's domain. This is not the actions of Born Again people being led by the Holy Spirit.
Lots of people pray including some religions who pray 5 times a day. But prayer is not enough. Prayer should be two-way communication in a case like this. You need a clear, definitive answer from God and that did not come - otherwise they would not have cast lots. Note how nowhere in this passage is there a reference to a clear answer to their prayers on this subject. And they "nominated" the two people who were the finalists. There is no indication that God was providing any specific direction in this matter.
Paul could not have been selected for many reasons, mainly because in order to be one of the 12, to qualify for a disciple one had to have followed Christ from the beginning, all during His earthly ministry, beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that He was taken up (Acts 1:21,22,cf. Matt.19:28). There probably were not many more than the two, Matthias and Joseph Barsabas, who filled that bill.
Those standards/requirements were set by men, not God. There quite possibly have been hundreds of disciples that followed Jesus from the beginning. In Luke 10, he sends out 70 to minister in his name and 500 were at the ascension. This does not disqualify Paul.
As I'm sure you already know Paul was not even saved at that time. He was busy "persecuting the church of God and laying it waste." (Gal. 1:13.
Nobody was Born again or "saved" until the arrival of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. This is the MOST important point to consider in all of this. All men from the fall of Adam until Pentecost, with the exception of Jesus, were spiritually dead. With the Holy Spirit's arrival, they could finally experience the New Birth and be filled with The Holy Spirit. You have to be recreated before you can be filled. They were servants and friends up until Pentecost, now we are children of God and joint heirs with Christ.
Peter himself confirms that they "believed" at Pentecost in Acts 11:17.
Think about the lives of the apostles - Peter was a loose cannon. Getting an inspiration that Jesus was the Son of God and in the next breath, getting rebuked by Jesus for letting Satan convince him to try and talk Jesus out of his mission on the cross. He is denying Jesus three times, cutting off the ear of Malchus, hiding in fear after the cross and leaving to go fishing during the risen Jesus' last moments on earth. These are the actions of a natural man.
Contrast that with his actions after Pentecost where he is preaching boldly, healing the sick and maturing quickly, operating in the gifts of the Holy Spirit. The same is true for all the followers of Jesus after Pentecost.
Note also that even after being Born Again Peter struggled at times when he placed more importance on carnal issues than spiritual - the reluctance to minister to Cornelius (vision of unclean food) and the hypocrisy displayed when he pulled away from Gentile Believers when Jewish Believers visited. That is why we are commanded to renew our minds with the Word and stay in close fellowship with the Holy Spirit so that we are being guided by Him, not our natural desires or man made traditions as was the case with many of the Jewish Believers who wanted to force their traditions on the Gentiles against God's will.
Being Born Again is a spiritual process that changes a person from the inside and allows them to have the Holy Spirit inside to guide them. Its even better than having a physical Jesus limited to only one location. The Holy Spirit can be anywhere there is a Believer.
Finally, the proof that they acted in the will of God in the matter of choosing Matthias is found in the fact that the Scripture clearlly states that Matthias "was numbered with the eleven apostles" (Acts 1:26) and that, "They were ALL filled with the Holy Ghost" (Acts 2:4).
Let's roll with that - Acts 1:13 only lists the 11, sans Matthias. They had just witnessed the ascension with about 500 people. Jesus gave no command to replace Judas, nor did he designate an heir apparent. In fact, nothing was even said by Jesus on the subject and he called all 12 original apostles personally, but not Matthias. But he did personally call Paul.
If the disciples had been out of the will of God in so important a matter as choosing the twelfth one that will one day sit upon a throne judging the twelve tribes of Israel, just as Peter and the others, they would NOT have been filled with the Holy Spirit. Matthias would NOT have been filled with the Holy Spirit if he had not been divinely chosen for that particular position. A man out of the will of God is never filled with the Holy Spirit.
They were living under the law and spiritually dead. They would enter the perfect will of God when they were Born Again at Pentecost.
Paul numbers Matthias with the eleven when he says that the resurrected Christ was "seen...of the twelve" (1 Cor. 15:5).
There were not 12 during Jesus' appearances after the cross because they had not cast lots to pick the 12th as of yet. Paul also says that Jesus was seen by over 500 followers in that same passage.
As I said earlier, this is not a life or death subject, but I did enjoy the opportunity to review the topic and study your responses and scripture evidence.
What put me on the Paul side was a study of the New Birth and then a review of the Gospels. Luke and Mark were companions of Paul and surely Matthew and John had met and were familiar with Paul's teaching the revelation of the New Birth. But the Holy Spirit constrained them from writing much if anything about the subject in the Gospels and Acts. The Gospels were to be focused on Jesus the incarnation and Son of God. Acts was a history of the early Church. Paul's writings (and others as well) would lay out the spiritual side of redemption.
I marvel at God's wisdom on this subject. The Gospels were written so that you would believe that Jesus was the Son of God - per John. The letters were to Believers so they could better understand all that Jesus accomplished for them and what they are NOW in Christ.
When you understand that spiritual death reigned until Pentecost, it makes everything in the Old Testament through Acts a little easier to understand. It also makes it easier to appreciate why its sometimes so difficult to reach unbelievers - they are spiritually dead. They have virtually no concept of sin or a need for a Savior.
I'm getting off track. But what put me into the Paul camp was that Jesus called all the original 12. The only other persons that seemingly had a personal call by Jesus to be his apostle were the rich young man who refused the call (Matthew 19) and Paul in Acts. It certainly seems a more compelling case than people casting lots for a replacement.
That very human act of casting lots in Acts 1 always seemed so against the will of God that it bothered me. It reminds me of so many times in my life and in Christian circles where people have put out fleeces or prayed a "if it be thy will" type of prayer instead of relying on the Holy Spirit to provide clear instructions on what to do. Invariably, when you are led by feelings, chance, luck and/or circumstances (satan's domain) you will flounder. We are to be guided by the Holy Spirit through our own spirit and avoid the traps prepared by the evil one.
Thanks for considering my points.
Firstly, the Book of Acts is a transitional book. From law to grace, from a kingdom of believers to a body of believers, from a nation to individuals from all nations.
The Holy Spirit is a very interesting topic here. Read Acts 1:8 carefully. The disciples were to begin their ministry in Jerusalem. Then they were to WAIT, before witnessing, for the POWER of the Holy Spirit to be outpoured on them. Notice is says "RECEIVE POWER" in Acts 1:8, for they had ALREADY RECEIVED the HOLY SPIRIT in John 20:22. The POWER of the Spirit came upon them on the day of Pentecost and Peter and the others amazed their Jewish brethren from other nation, as they heard them speak in their own language. (Acts 2:7,8).
So they ALREADY possessed the Holy Spirit when they came together to fill the vacancy left by Judas. And why was this important? Because of the promise Christ gave them in Matt. 19:28. They KNEW they would be sitting on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Christ had ascended to heaven, and they knew He was going to return to set up His kingdom. (Although obviously, they did not know WHEN).
This is the critical importance of Acts 2:16-21. When Peter standing with the eleven and proclaimed "THIS is THAT which was spoken of by the prophet Joel:" (Joel 2:28), they were certain that Christ was about to return. God had promised he would restore Israel and Joel had prophesied how they would know when this restoration would begin. As far as they knew to this point, all signs were pointing to the eminent return of Christ.
The point is, would Christ have returned had there not been the election of Matthias to sit on the twelfth throne? There would NOT have been 11 Disciples judging the 12 tribes of Israel. One Disciple for each tribe. The choice to fill Judas' place was critical for the day of Pentecost. The day of Pentecost marked the beginning of the harvest for Israel.
The filling of that 12th position was critical for prophecy to be fulfilled. And what was bound in earth was bound in heaven.
Anyway, interesting topic, if you wish to continue. God Bless!
Nowhere does God select Matthias, but Paul is an Apostle chosen by God and given the spiritual gift as an Apostle.
Matthias was chosen by the other 11 Apostles who were too impatient to wait for God to select Paul.
..so you believe God wanted Paul to sit on one of the twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel, when Christ returns to set up His kingdom? (Matt. 19:28).
I thought while they were replacing Judas, Paul was tending to the belongings of those martyring Stephen; he didn’t seem to be looking for a new line of work at the time.
The problem rests in who is replacing the gift of Apostleship. That power only rests with God Himself, not any other group or individual human.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.