Let me first say that due to the excesses and often problematic nature of discerning true vs. false (so-called) “sign gifts,” then part of me is more desirous to hold to the cessationist position. However, objective analysis on my part of the arguments pro and con would not allow me that position, and which conclusion I came to while still a part of a fundamental Baptist church in which the pressure was on to condemn all Pentecostals along with cults. And yet i hold many cessationists in high regard as often being the better preachers overall.
While as you can see, I do not sanction the untouchable status or extremes certain faith healers presume and teach, but neither can I give God a sabbatical rest from doing as he ever did (especially in Acts) in confirming his word with the supernatural attestation of miraculous signs and wonders, through His instruments, as promised. (Mk. 16:17,18)
The problem is such sign gifts can be fabricated or imitated by the devil who seeks to operate in the same level that God does. Thus the first three miracles of Moses were duplicated by magicians. Faced with such some choose to take the safe but somewhat sterile route, that of the disallowing all miracles, or at least those done through man. On the other extreme of those who open the door so wide that both souls of God as well as demons could work such in the church.
However, faced with evil, God through Moses overcame them with good in showing greater power, and and gave the law. God will never be outdone by the devil, and and provides good laws for the use of things.
And it is a gospel promise that "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. " (John 14:12)
While "greater" here can mean in quantity, usually afforded by having more than 3 1/2 years in which to do miracles and other works, and perhaps "he" (which actual word is not in the Greek), is in the general sense, the point is that the church of the living and true God is manifested to be such not simply in character but also by supernatural attestation, for God has confirmed his word through the ages with supernatural manifestations, without which we would not even have the Scriptures (people did not listen to Moses because he had the right credentials from college). And therefore, the early church "went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen. " (Mark 16:20) .
While this supernatural attestation is indeed primarily through the preaching of "the Gospel of the grace of God" (Acts 20:24b) which convicts souls of sin and righteousness and judgment, and which effects manifest regeneration by faith in the risen Christ to save them by his sinless shed blood, the gospel promises in the record of Acts extend beyond that.
While the most overt supernatural attestation can be seen being given to new revelation, as in the case of Moses and the Lord Jesus and Peter and Paul and the other apostles, yet the working of miracles was not restricted to the apostles (the deacons Philip and Stephen also did miracles), nor simply to instituting the new covenant, but in both Testaments the Lord confirmed His word with supernatural attestation, and by which truth is established, and not simply by proclamation. "For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power. " (1 Corinthians 4:20) There is nothing that foretells that God would cease from doing as he ever did, and if we claim to be the New Testament church of the living God then we dare not put the book of Acts in a Museum.
Your argument that has God giving gifts in order to confirm His gospel but removing them as unnecessary because the Gospel is confirmed by the “sign and wonder” of the authority of God's word changing hearts, would also render the former class of supernatural attestation as unnecessary in the first century, as the gospel most certainly changed hearts then in manifest ways. But God giveth more grace.
The larger argument is that the New Testament, having being completed, then the attestation of signs and wonders was no longer needed or warranted. However, while we believe the New Testament is complete, yet apart from evidence the lost now are no more likely to be convinced of this or of the Divine inspiration of any of the Bible than the lost were that the words of Paul, etc. were inspired by God in his day.
Nor is it reasonable that the supernatural attestation which my be given in providing warrant for faith should be more restricted in scope or instrumentality than what the very Book we call them to believe testifies to.
In short, the supernatural attestation of both the changed life as well as other supernatural signs which are correspondent to the promises of Almighty God can be no less efficacious or needful today to the lost believer who is a seeker of truth, Especially in the light (or rather the darkness) of the pervasive plethora of persuasive perverted competing persuasions.
[It is true that those who will not hear Moses would not be persuaded even though one should rise from the dead. But this certainly does not mean that one must even know that there is an Old Testament out to be saved, as helpful as that would be, as seen in cases of Scripturally illiterate Gentiles in Acts, and in the light of Romans chapter 2, but it is needful that that they hear the truth given them, whatever essence of the law they had, and the words of the gospel, and such can be provided warrant to believe that gospel by supernatural Divine attestation.]
It it true that the cessationist rejection of gifts being given to men to work miracles does not disallow that God sovereignly can do miracles, yet not only does cessationism tend to foster little expectant faith that God would even sovereignly supernaturally heal etc., but this is a restriction that is more of a tradition of men than sound exegesis. The Holy Spirit says nothing in passages such as first Corinthians 12 which makes a distinction between other gifts and "sign gifts" as regards that the latter gifts are there only for limited time.
And thus the cessationist argument almost rests entirely upon first Corinthians 13 and the meaning of "that which is perfect." It is argued that the Greek word for “perfect” there is in the neuter and therefore cannot refer to Christ. However, I do not see it referring to Christ per se but to the perfect revelation of Christ. And as said, the characteristics which are to accompany the coming of that which is perfect do not fully correspond to what is realized with the completion of the New Testament Canon, but Scripturally this most easily is seen to refer to what will be realized with the coming of Christ.
It is also argued that that in the book of Acts we see less accounts of miracles in the latter chapters. However, this is due to the change in the narrative, from accounts of Paul's missionary activity as in chapter 19, in which "God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul," (Acts 19:11) to his latter captivity, which offered few occasions to do miracles. Yet, consistent with other , when such an occasion presented itself even in the last chapter of Acts Paul then we see exercising his gift to do miracles. (Acts 28:3-9)
As for the argument that little mention of miracle working is testified to by so-called “church fathers,” besides it being held that that we known only a small portion of what they all wrote, (and there is disagreement as to who they all were), yet a lack of the truly miraculous would be consistent with the slow spiritual declension of the church. Yet if the testimony of CFs is given weight in disallowing sign gifts in the post apostolic age, then it must be consistent, which it is not. It is said that,
“even Augustine of Hippo (a.D. 354- 430), who had originally adopted the view that miracles had ceased with the apostolic age, changed his opinion during the last two or three years of his life... A renowned twentieth-century specialist in Augustine, Peter Brown, stated that Augustine attempted to bring together various incidents of miracles "until they formed a single corpus, as compact and compelling as the miracles that had assisted the growth of the Early Church." http://www.grmi.org/Richard_Riss/evidences/37mir.html
Of course, not all miraculous claims are true or of God, for as said, the devil is an imitator, and having defended the perpetuity of all gifts as a doctrine, i will now say that I personally consider that perhaps most claims of the operation of these sign gifts today are falsely attributed or abused.
As regards the former I speak mainly as concerns claims to prophecy, almost all of which I have heard were false when predictive, or without substantiation as having been spoken before the claimed fulfillment, while the rest mostly sound contrived, taking the Lord's name in vain, tickling ears with promises of great blessings, revival and favor to a church that in reality desperately needs to hear more of James 4, in repentance and cleansing. Or unjustly condemning others in order to elevate themselves. However, I do believe God can give someone a word from him, though such does not have the level of authority of Scripture and it is subject to it.
I also think that even some cessationist have gifts such as the word of wisdom or discerning of spirits, even though they are not be aware that it is a a sign gift.
Claims of healings also often have a poor record of verification, yet I'm certain that God does heal through persons so gifted as well as sovereignly, and I myself have been the beneficiary of healing through the former. As for tongues, while I cannot say that most are false, rarely are they exercised after the biblical manner in an assembly.
Yet the fact that something is often fabricated or abused does not mean the genuine does not exist, or that the practice must necessarily be placed in suspension, as the Scriptural response to abuse seen in 1Cor. 14 was to institute regulations so that it may be efficacious.
Cessationists also challenge those who believe in the perpetuity of gifts with the question as to why they do not go to hospitals and heal all the sick that are therein. That seems like a valid question if the those who believe in the perpetuity of gifts believe that is God's will to always heal souls, in which itself is not as a true doctrine.
Some cessationists also argue that the church that had the most spiritual gifts was also most carnal, which is a very dangerous argument for it infers that spiritual gifts fosters carnality. But what it does show is as said before that charisms do to not equal character.
In summation, doctrinally i do not find that cessationist arguments (and i have not dealt with them all here) to be warranted, either in precept or in principle, and pray that God will do more, especially in the present skepticism and militant attacks on the faith, for in the face of such the early church prayed, "And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word, By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus. " (Acts 4:29-30)
However, i myself am sadly hardly much of an example of a Pentecostal, yet i must oppose the abuse and excess and (worst of all) fabrications that so often characterizes such, to which leaders mainly will get an account. But while this effects a negative testimony of the gifts and the faith, and is Pentecostalism's own worst enemy, yet it is also true that, as regards excesses, it is the pot that boils over that gets the attention, and not the one that is not even simmering. That being the institutionalized church, which is easy to slip into unless we seek to live a life of faith in such a way that if the Holy Spirit was removed and God did not manifestly act then all would collapse or die. Otherwise it must resort to other means, from the sword of men to Bingo to other worldly ways and gimmicks and hype.
A Christian from a persecuted country is said to have wryly remarked after visiting America, “the one thing that amazed me about American Christians is the great things they can do without God.”
Thank you for considering the long explanation my understanding of this issue. May walk in the light that God gives us and our consecration keep pace with His revelation.
WONDERFULLY EXCELLENT POST.
THX THX.
GREATLY AGREE.
PRAISE GOD.
AMEN!
I think it is also inescapable to accept that the church in those centuries after the Apostles all died and the Bible was completed did cease exhibiting those supernatural manifestations. I do not believe it can or should be attributed to an apostate church or to a "slow spiritual declension". God always has his "remnant" and, if those gifts were in use then, I can imagine it would have been mentioned in at least some of the writings. Please understand me, I have NEVER said nor thought that God has slowed down or ceased in working in miraculous ways for His children and I have many examples of such in my own life as well as acquaintances and other's testimonies. I KNOW God still works! What I do doubt is a specific person(s) being given the same miraculous gifts that were given back then. Whatever healings I have or have not experienced were because of following the Biblical example of the church leaders' prayers as well as other Christians. And it was never the person's power that was credited for the healing, it was always God that received the glory.
What saddens me greatly is how many people have such hopes for God to work THROUGH a self-professed "healer" and, when they are not healed, the Healer takes no responsibility for his failure but lays it all upon the sick's lack of faith. Seldom is God's perfect will and plan ever voiced as the reason why healing didn't take place and the sick leave with no such guidance from the Healer's people. So much greed is rampant in this type of ministry, with lavish lifestyles and sleazy "programs" designed to gather as much fleece from the flock as can be had. Rarely do we see or hear of a humble, meek and God-glorifying minister visiting the sick away from cameras and followers.
Again, I do appreciate your respectful comments and the time and effort it take you to compose them. I dearly wish others had the same attitude of understanding that, though others may not hold the same views on these matters, it in no way means they are not Spirit-filled, lovers of Christ and living lives that bring glory and honor to God.
First off daniel let me thank you for that outstanding post! Cool,calm,candid.Thankyou for showing us how it's done!< prod >
"Some cessationists also argue that the church that had the most spiritual gifts was also most carnal, which is a very dangerous argument for it infers that spiritual gifts fosters carnality."
Many of the posts here are exhortations to check everything by the scriptures and rightly so.However you would think that after a decade or so of posting back and forth that we would all pretty much know where each other is coming from.For the vast part these folks posts speak for themselves.Most of this group here are pretty much sceptical of everything till it's been through the lens.I don't doubt any of these folks standing with God,yourself included and I also don't doubt that little,if anything that didn't pass the smell test would slither past any of you.It would be promptly stomped on and mocked whilst thanking God for His Word and the sound mind He has given us.It is God who cleans out our worldly baggage and makes us more and more an examiner of all we hear.
It's a wonderfull thing to be able to be still and know that God is God!
However we are still in these "bodies of death" inhabited by a "wicked and deceitfull" heart.As we are being transformed by the renewing of our minds we each seem to reach a point where we 'tip' so to speak.As if we now know the reality of God and much of what that entails.A lot becomes very clear then and much cloud and haze is blown away very quickly.It's trully wonderfull and I KNOW that all of you know exactly what I mean...this wonderfull 'point of no return' so to speak.I say "as if we know" because if we had that mustard seed sized faith the sun would probably be blotted out with flying mountains and the beaches would by covered with herds of swine.Still...it aint over yet!
There's one part of me that reads all these lectures and goes...wull duh! and another part that wants to be thankfull that my bro/sisters here on FR care enough about me to post them.So I mostly grit my teeth and thank God 8-)
However I think I'd be hard pressed to go through pretty much every post on this thread (and especially the one that was locked) and not find something,however small, that didn't have flesh written all over it.Yours and mine included.We are still here and it is still here.In the grand scheme of things it's a shame that we seem to quickly turn our sceptisism on each other.I've no doubt that a lot of validity wafts in and out of the conversation but I also suspect that the real enemy of our souls is sometimes busting a gut laughing.
In reality we are all "lame dead dogs" supping at the King's table totally on someone elses account.(2 Samuel 9:8)Just sayin...
Oh yeah..."for it infers that spiritual gifts fosters carnality"...I wouldn't say that but it does sometimes appear that carnality really wants to tag along with the gifts...and then oh what a mess!
Grace...lots of grace and peace to you all.