The "Inconvenient Tale" of the Original King James Bible

Handsonapologetics ^ | Gary Michuta

[MarkBsnr]

I don’t debate with people who post lies about me.

[MarkBsnr]

What I did say is that salvation is an individual thing. Putting ones trust in Jesus alone rather than an institution or individual is the only sure way. Understanding the “meat” of scripture is not paramount to ones salvation. I have also said that putting ones trust in any individual or institution is risky at best. When a person is led to understanding the “meat” of scripture it is indeed their responsibility to “search the scriptures daily to see if these things be true” with all that entails. How deeply one delves into that understanding is an individual calling.

Does that 'trust' involve any innate or revealed knowledge?

[count-your-change]

Your example answers my question and thanks. Paul certainly set an example but it was he himself that said to pay attention to those taking the lead and as we saw how their course turned out we were to imitate their faith. (Heb. 13:7) Presumably that would include Peter and the others as they died in faith.

I know of but one “gospel of the Kingdom” and the twelve preached it, Paul preached it, just one, not Peter’s and then Paul’s.

[smvoice]

lol! I really appreciate your unwavering appeal to source authority. It shows you are not willing to accept something just because someone says it's so. You search diligently for the answers to your questions, and will stop at nothing until you are satisfied that all the information you require has been given.

BTW: Could you please give me the dating of Peter's exodus to Rome? It IS the authority from which your Church operates from the Vatican, no? And it does seem critical to your theology.

Thanks for your reply. I know it will be enlightening.

[MarkBsnr]

I know of but one “gospel of the Kingdom” and the twelve preached it, Paul preached it, just one, not Peter’s and then Paul’s.

There is Jesus the Creator, and then there are His created. We believe that the pinnacle of the revelation to man from God was the Incarnation of Christ on earth. I cannot believe that somebody's (wrong) interpretation of Paul somehow improves on the Incarnate Christ.

[smvoice]

Let me give you a little lesson on The Twelve Apostles and Paul. Since you stated "It is Paul who personifies Christ and their interpretation of Paul is the fulfillment of Jesus, not actually Jesus in the Gospels, Himself." shows a severe lack of Scriptural understanding on your part. To continually mischaracterize posts is either ignorance on your part or purposeful deceit. So we'll do a little comparison of the ministries of the twelve and Paul. We'll start with Peter and the 11. Let it sink in, then we'll move on to Paul, and then we'll compare them.

1. The twelve were chosen by Christ ON EARTH (Luke 6:13).

2. At the time Paul was raised up the twelve had known only CHRIST ON EARTH. They had NOT EVEN SEEN HIM ENTER HEAVEN AT HIS ASCENSION, for, "A CLOUD RECEIVED HIM OUT OF THEIR SIGHT" (Acts 1:9).

3. They represented the NATION ISRAEL- ONE FOR EACH TRIBE. Clearly stated here: "Verily I say unto you, that ye which have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, YE ALSO SHALL SIT UPON TWELVE TRIBES, JUDGING THE TWELVE TRIBES OF ISRAEL." Mat. 19:28).

4. These twelve were FIRST SENT FORTH to proclaim the kingdom of heaven AT HAND (Mat. 10:7, with Dan. 2:44) and then, later, to OFFER it to Israel with a view to carrying the message to all the world (Acts 1:6-8, 3:19-26).

5. They were given power to work miracles (Mat. 10:8, Mark 16:17,18).

6. Their ministry was based upon the COVENANTS AND PROPHECY (Isa. 60:1-3, Luke 1:70-75, Acts 3:22-26).

7. THEREFORE, they were sent to the Jew FIRST and looked for the salvation of the Gentiles THROUGH REGENERATED ISRAEL (Mat. 10:5,6; Luke 24:47; Acts 3:25,26).

8. They ministered in Palestine ONLY (Acts 10:39, 21:17-20). Until at least the setting aside of Israel, in Acts 28.

9. In their message and ministry they ANTICIPATED Israel's ACCEPTANCE of Christ as King and His RETURN TO REIGN. THIS IS WHAT THEY LABORED, HOPED AND PRAYED FOR. (Acts 1:11, 3:19-21).

10. In the "great commission" to the twelve, water baptism was REQUIRED for salvation and miraculous signs were the EVIDENCES of salvation (Mark 16:15-18, Acts 2:28).

Questions? If you choose not to look the Scriptures up for yourself and examine them, comparing Scripture with Scripture, then I pray there is someone lurking who will take the time.

You are making a mockery of something that is clearly stated in God's Word, if only you would take the time to STUDY IT.

[CynicalBear]

Revealed knowledge is when I dig into the real meaning of the Greek word “menounge”. It’s then that I find out that Jesus really said “nay rather” when someone was trying to give veneration to Mary. Revealed knowledge is when I find out that the Catholic Church only began to claim the Apocryphal books were inspired after they needed them to confirm doctrine not found in what they formerly declared scripture.

Nice try tho Mark.

[CynicalBear]

>> Thanks for your reply. I know it will be enlightening.<<

I will really look forward to getting that as it’s a piece I’m missing on some research I’m doing. Hopefully it will come soon.

[CynicalBear]

That was powerful smvoice. Wow! I truly pray that many who read that will study it and take from it what is there. Great job!

[MarkBsnr]

Let me give you a little lesson on The Twelve Apostles and Paul.

Oh goody.

Since you stated "It is Paul who personifies Christ and their interpretation of Paul is the fulfillment of Jesus, not actually Jesus in the Gospels, Himself." shows a severe lack of Scriptural understanding on your part.

It is what I believe that you are posting, and by the way, you are reinforcing it with your post here.

To continually mischaracterize posts is either ignorance on your part or purposeful deceit.

The evidence is pretty overwhelming as to what you are posting.

So we'll do a little comparison of the ministries of the twelve and Paul. We'll start with Peter and the 11. Let it sink in, then we'll move on to Paul, and then we'll compare them.

And this will advance your thesis that Peter and the Twelve (and the Gospels) are for the Jews only and that it is to Paul that we Christians must turn for direction? Let us see. Pray proceed.

1. The twelve were chosen by Christ ON EARTH (Luke 6:13).

God is somehow different in His choices whilst on earth? Hmmm. A changeable God. What other wisdom do you proffer?

2. At the time Paul was raised up the twelve had known only CHRIST ON EARTH. They had NOT EVEN SEEN HIM ENTER HEAVEN AT HIS ASCENSION, for, "A CLOUD RECEIVED HIM OUT OF THEIR SIGHT" (Acts 1:9).

Did Paul? Acts 9: 1 Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord’s disciples. He went to the high priest 2 and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem. 3 As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4 He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?” 5 “Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked. “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied. 6 “Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”

It says that Paul was blinded. Paul never saw Jesus at all. Paul never saw Jesus until after his death. You are correct. There is a definite handicap. The Twelve had three years of the sight of Jesus. I must begin to apologize for having doubted you that Paul is of a different Apostolic calling and with different amounts of confirmation of Jesus. Paul only saw a light and then was blinded. And he still believed. Strong man.

3. They represented the NATION ISRAEL- ONE FOR EACH TRIBE. Clearly stated here: "Verily I say unto you, that ye which have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, YE ALSO SHALL SIT UPON TWELVE TRIBES, JUDGING THE TWELVE TRIBES OF ISRAEL." Mat. 19:28).

Neat. Now, who is the Twelve here? Does that include Judas? Or Matthias? Do they get to judge anything else? Oh dear, is Paul left out? Not even a flower arranging competition? That's unsettling.

4. These twelve were FIRST SENT FORTH to proclaim the kingdom of heaven AT HAND (Mat. 10:7, with Dan. 2:44) and then, later, to OFFER it to Israel with a view to carrying the message to all the world (Acts 1:6-8, 3:19-26).

So the instruction to make disciples of all nations as a primary commission in Matthew 28, Mark 16, and Acts 1 is a mistake? The instruction of Christ has nothing to do with Israel at this except as another nation. Now who is ignoring Scripture?

5. They were given power to work miracles (Mat. 10:8, Mark 16:17,18).

Handy in power outages and when the cable goes down.

6. Their ministry was based upon the COVENANTS AND PROPHECY (Isa. 60:1-3, Luke 1:70-75, Acts 3:22-26).

Matthew 5: 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

They were based upon the promises of Jesus.

8. They ministered in Palestine ONLY (Acts 10:39, 21:17-20). Until at least the setting aside of Israel, in Acts 28.

Acts 21 only mentions James, and not any of the 12. Why not? After all, when Paul went to Jerusalem before, he went to Peter and James. Now here, only James. Perhaps Peter had departed for foreign climes already.

9. In their message and ministry they ANTICIPATED Israel's ACCEPTANCE of Christ as King and His RETURN TO REIGN. THIS IS WHAT THEY LABORED, HOPED AND PRAYED FOR. (Acts 1:11, 3:19-21).

And they got what they got. We know that Thomas evangelized India. Why do you not take that into account? Does it spoil a nice piece of fish?

10. In the "great commission" to the twelve, water baptism was REQUIRED for salvation and miraculous signs were the EVIDENCES of salvation (Mark 16:15-18, Acts 2:28).

And you have a problem with that? The great benefactors of the gospel of prosperity use that all the time. Aren't you a fan?

Questions? If you choose not to look the Scriptures up for yourself and examine them, comparing Scripture with Scripture, then I pray there is someone lurking who will take the time.

Hear ye, hear ye, step right up. Look at the amazing March 26 2012 version of Christianity. Better get a really good photograph of it, because tomorrow it'll be wearing a whole new coat.

I hope that you understand why I am taking this tone. I have heard this a thousand times here and elsewhere. Today it's earnestly we believe this and tomorrow it's earnestly we believe that and every day it changes and every day it comes no closer to the truth. The Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ does not change with the seasons. It does not change with the political climate. It does not change with whether you are fired from your job or whether you are promoted.

Jesus is the same. The Faith is the same. 2000 years of Faith versus what, 100 years of innovation.

You are making a mockery of something that is clearly stated in God's Word, if only you would take the time to STUDY IT.

I take God's Word - Jesus - very seriously. You guys cannot even get that straight. Jesus is the Word. The Bible is God's word. I cannot communicate properly with those who will not use language to mean what it actually means. If you use Christian terminology, at least please use it correctly.

[D-fendr]

Thanks for your reply.

I really appreciate your unwavering appeal to source authority.

Are you saying you have no one or source you consider authoritative? I'm really not seeing your answer to the simple questions. I don't think it's that difficult. Are you saying you are your own authority on all these matters?

Is that it or is it just difficult for you to say?

[MarkBsnr]

Revealed knowledge is when I dig into the real meaning of the Greek word “menounge”. It’s then that I find out that Jesus really said “nay rather” when someone was trying to give veneration to Mary. Revealed knowledge is when I find out that the Catholic Church only began to claim the Apocryphal books were inspired after they needed them to confirm doctrine not found in what they formerly declared scripture.

Context is all, here. Christ's pronouncement while on the Cross shows what He wanted to be known about Mary.

Let's see. When were the Deuterocanonicals canonized? In the late 300s, I believe. Did they need to be canonized then to promote some heinous plot?

[smvoice]

How difficult is it for you to date when Peter went to Rome? I would think that’s a pretty simple question, since it’s been thrown around for what, 2000 years now? I’m not seeing your cooperation on these posts..but thanks for your reply. I’ll take that as an “I have no idea when Peter went to Rome. Tradition says he did, and that’s good enough for me.” Fair enough?

[D-fendr]

Excellent example and summary. I believe that’s known as Hyper-Dispensationalism.

[MarkBsnr]

That was powerful smvoice.

Macbeth Act 5, scene 5, 23–28

Passionate, surely. Accurate in its claims, no.

[MarkBsnr]

Excellent example and summary. I believe that’s known as Hyper-Dispensationalism.

I have not done extensive study, but I find Hyper Dispensationalism lying somewhere between gazing at the god in the mirror and

[D-fendr]

I think the Church fathers would be the best source on Peter’s travels and Rome. If you wish to know what it known, that’s where I’d suggest you look.

The chronology is not critical to my theology. However, I believe the chronology of Paul’s letters is critical to yours. Not mine.

This is why I asked for your source for dating/chronology of his letters. I really still have no clue why that seems to be so difficult for you.

Neither the general question nor the specific ones have been answered. Why is it so difficult?

[CynicalBear]

Such an in depth, well studied, theological response………………………..NOT.

[smvoice]

Your smarmy answers does nothing to the discussion, Mark. I am giving you, from SCRIPTURE, a comparison of Peter and the 11's commission from Paul's commission. I started with Peter and the 11 so you wouldn't get the bends from jumping into the depths of Paul's ministry. If they are the same, then Scripture would make that perfectly clear. Paul would be the 13th Apostle. And would be sitting on a throne, judging the twelve tribes of Israel when Christ return to set up His Kingdom here on earth. But we know that is not true, according to God's Word.

Here's an interesting point that I'm sure you've never considered, because it's not in red letters. But it is an introduction to Paul's ministry and commission from the risen Lord.

"The Lord Himself said to Paul: They (Israel) WILL NOT RECEIVE THY TESTIMONY CONCERNING ME." (Acts 22:18). Wait a minute...that might just BE IN RED in your Bible, since CHRIST SAID IT. Paul's message, UNLIKE THAT OF THE TWELVE, was based upon Israel's REJECTION OF CHRIST. The twelve anticipated Israel's ACCEPTANCE of Christ as King and His return to reign, as I stated above. Did you know that, unlike Peter and the 11, Paul NEVER proclaimed the kingdom at hand, or offered it for Israel's acceptance? He confirmed that FACT that Jesus was Israel's Messiah, thus he went to the Jews first, until Israel was set aside, Acts 28.

I have about 10 points regarding Paul's ministry and commission. And how they compare to the twelve's ministry and commission.

"Oh goody", you say. "Thank God" I say.

And BTW: You are, once again, missing the point of Christ's earthly ministry and His ministry on this earth during His absence here. But really, I can expect no real dialogue with you on this. That's why God leads people to this site. Those who are searching and hungry for the truth of God's word. Not the religious institutions that tell them what to think, but The Word of God, that tells them what HE THINKS. His revealed word to mankind. His plan. His timeline. His way.

[smvoice]

AH, so THAT date doesn't matter? The most important date of RCC, and it doesn't matter? And you're telling me to look it up? lol! How are any of the Books of the Bible dated, D-fendr? Just HOW are the dates approximated?

It's not that it's "difficult". It's that it is so hypocritical to insist one person do something, while refusing to do the same thing yourself. Can you not identify a pre-prison Epistle with the Prison Epistles? Can you not read the salutations, and content of the Epistles and understand times and seasons, who, what, where, when, and why?

But I really appreciate your reply. You have NO IDEA how much I appreciate it..