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Why do Catholics leave, and what can be done about it?
cna ^ | April 19, 2012 | Father Robert Barron

Posted on 04/19/2012 11:58:25 AM PDT by NYer

I saw an advance copy of a survey by William J. Byron and Charles Zech, which will appear in the April 30th edition of “America” magazine. 

It was conducted at the request of David O’Connell, the bishop of Trenton, and its focus was very simple:  it endeavored to discover why Catholics have left the church.  No one denies that a rather substantive number of Catholics have taken their leave during the past 20 years, and Byron and Zech wanted to find out why.  They did so in the most direct way possible and asked those who had quit.

The answers they got were, in many ways, predictable.  Lots of people cited the church’s teachings on divorce and re-marriage, gay marriage, contraception, and the ordination of women.  These matters, of course, have been exhaustively discussed in the years following Vatican II, and I’d be willing to bet that anyone, even those vaguely connected to the Church, could rehearse the arguments on both sides of those issues.  But there just isn’t a lot that the church can do about them.  No bishop or pastor could make a policy adjustment and announce that divorced and re-married people can receive communion or that a gay couple can come to the altar to be married or a woman present herself for ordination.

What struck me about the survey, however, was that many of the issues that led people to leave the church are indeed matters that can be addressed.  Many of the respondents commented that they left because of “bad customer relations.”  One woman said that she felt “undervalued by the church” and found “no mentors.”  Many more said that their pastors were “arrogant, distant, aloof, and insensitive,” and still others said that their experiences over the phone with parish staffers were distinctly negative.  Now I fully understand that parish priests and lay ministers are on the front lines and hence are the ones who often have to say “no” when a parishioner asks for something that just can’t be granted.  Sometimes the recipient of that “no” can all too facilely accuse the one who says it as arrogant or indifferent.  Nevertheless, the survey can and should be a wake-up call to church leaders—both clerical and non-clerical—that simple kindness, compassion, and attention go a rather long way.  I distinctly remember the advice that my first pastor—a wonderful and pastorally skillful priest—gave to the parish secretary:  “for many people, you are the first contact they have with the Catholic Church; you exercise, therefore, an indispensable ministry.”  One respondent to the survey observed that whenever he asked a priest about a controversial issue, he “got rules, and not an invitation to sit down and talk.”  Unfair?  Perhaps.  But every priest, even when ultimately he has to say “no,” can do so in the context of a relationship predicated upon love and respect.

A second major concern that can and should be addressed is that of bad preaching.  Again and again, people said that they left the church because homilies were “boring, irrelevant, poorly prepared,” or “delivered in an impenetrable accent.”  Again, speaking as someone who is called upon to give sermons all the time, I realize how terribly difficult it is to preach, how it involves skill in public speaking, attention to the culture, expertise in biblical interpretation, and sensitivity to the needs and interests of an incredibly diverse audience.  That said, homilists can make a great leap forward by being attentive to one fact:  sermons become boring in the measure that they don’t propose something like answers to real questions.   All of the biblical exegesis and oratorical skill in the world will be met with a massive “so what?” if the preacher has not endeavored to correlate the “answers” he provides with the “questions” that beguile the hearts of the people to whom he speaks.  Practically every Gospel involves an encounter between Jesus and a person—Peter, Mary Magdalene, Nicodemus, Zacchaeus, etc.—who is questioning, wondering, suffering, or seeking.  An interesting homily identifies that longing and demonstrates, concretely, how Jesus fulfills it.  When the homily both reminds people how thirsty they are and provides water to quench the thirst, people will listen.

A third eminently correctable problem is one that I will admit I had never thought about before reading this survey.  Many of the respondents commented that, after they left the church, no one from the parish contacted them or reached out to them in any way.  Now again, I can anticipate and fully understand the objections from pastoral people:  many Catholic parishes are huge—upwards of three or four thousand families—and staffs are small.  Yet, just as major corporations, serving millions of people, attend carefully to lost customers, so Catholic parishes should prioritize an outreach to those who have drifted (or stormed) away.  A phone call, a note, an e-mail, a pastoral visit—anything that would say, “We’ve noticed you’re not coming to Mass anymore.  Can we help?  Can you tell us what, if anything, we’ve done wrong?  We’d love to see you back with us.”

The problem of Catholics leaving the church is, obviously, serious and complex, and anyone who would suggest an easy solution is naïve.  However, having listened to a representative sample of those who have left, parishes, priests, and church administrators might take some relatively simple and direct steps that would go a long way toward ameliorating the situation.
 


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Ministry/Outreach; Religion & Culture
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To: Natural Law

Oh that makes me happy!


51 posted on 04/19/2012 1:47:24 PM PDT by netmilsmom (I am Breitbart)
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To: mdmathis6
Thank you for your kind words, but when I go back, I go back as a total Papist, lol! It's the most beautiful, the most intellectual of the Christian faiths. It is very much an aesthetic with me, as well as a faith.
52 posted on 04/19/2012 1:56:10 PM PDT by miss marmelstein
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To: Natural Law; RnMomof7; netmilsmom; USS Alaska

“Whenever any of our words or actions causes anyone to recoil in anger, hatred or fear from the Word of God we take on a shared responsibility for their sin because, as Christians, we know better. I pray that you remember this when declaring your own Salvation.”

Simply speaking the truth of Jesus causes many to react out of anger for their darkness does not like the light. So while your words are wise as far as they go; sometimes the person speaking the truth, no matter how softly and gently he speaks them or as boldly forthright as in the case of Paul, that person is going to be accused of being angry, out of touch, worthy to be a censured and killed enemy. So we must be cautious as Christians in the censuring of one another in the speaking of truth...the world itself will always be offended by us; but Christians must remain in control at least in the offending of one another! Remember scripture:John 13:34“A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35“By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”
Forget about Protestant and Catholic “ideas’ about what “church” is...the days are darkening and Christians in all churches everywhere...Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, Jewish Messianic are about to have imposed on them what Christ’s idea of what his church should be...persecution may make of all of us very strange bedfellows. Some of the posters on this thread are right...we are all of us going to be very surprised as to what Christ really considers his TRUE church to be! Our minds would be blown away if we could really understand what Christ intends for us; our imaginations could never conceive what is coming!


53 posted on 04/19/2012 2:20:47 PM PDT by mdmathis6 (Christ came not to make man into God but to restore fellowship of the Godhead with man.)
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To: Natural Law; RnMomof7; netmilsmom; USS Alaska

“Whenever any of our words or actions causes anyone to recoil in anger, hatred or fear from the Word of God we take on a shared responsibility for their sin because, as Christians, we know better. I pray that you remember this when declaring your own Salvation.”

Simply speaking the truth of Jesus causes many to react out of anger for their darkness does not like the light. So while your words are wise as far as they go; sometimes the person speaking the truth, no matter how softly and gently he speaks them or as boldly forthright as in the case of Paul, that person is going to be accused of being angry, out of touch, worthy to be a censured and killed enemy. So we must be cautious as Christians in the censuring of one another in the speaking of truth...the world itself will always be offended by us; but Christians must remain in control at least in the offending of one another! Remember scripture:John 13:34“A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35“By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”
Forget about Protestant and Catholic “ideas’ about what “church” is...the days are darkening and Christians in all churches everywhere...Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, Jewish Messianic are about to have imposed on them what Christ’s idea of what his church should be...persecution may make of all of us very strange bedfellows. Some of the posters on this thread are right...we are all of us going to be very surprised as to what Christ really considers his TRUE church to be! Our minds would be blown away if we could really understand what Christ intends for us; our imaginations could never conceive what is coming!


54 posted on 04/19/2012 2:20:55 PM PDT by mdmathis6 (Christ came not to make man into God but to restore fellowship of the Godhead with man.)
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To: miss marmelstein

Christ says he’ll leave “90 and 9 to search for his one lost sheep”...you’ll be in his fold, no matter what temporary ‘pen’ you end up in!


55 posted on 04/19/2012 2:23:55 PM PDT by mdmathis6 (Christ came not to make man into God but to restore fellowship of the Godhead with man.)
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To: NYer

I hear you but I have read almost 70% of Catholics no longer believe in the Real Presence.


56 posted on 04/19/2012 2:24:03 PM PDT by MomwithHope (Buy and read Ameritopia by Mark Levin!)
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To: ArrogantBustard

“Some people know the Scriptures better than Jesus does.”

That’s the best, funniest line I’ve read in a long time.

(Back to cleaning computer screen)


57 posted on 04/19/2012 2:25:13 PM PDT by OpusatFR
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To: NYer; Salvation; Tax-chick; Chode

“Many of the respondents commented that, after they left the church, no one from the parish contacted them or reached out to them in any way. “

That is understandable. Makes a person feel unwanted. Was one of 100 reasons I left the Baptist church. Not saying this to bash Baptist FReepers, just merely pointing out it can happen in any church.

“Do unto others......”


58 posted on 04/19/2012 2:25:49 PM PDT by Morgana (I only come here to see what happens next. It normally does.)
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To: RnMomof7

Obama is attacking the Catholic Church in America, no other church. You should stop to think about that. Satan knows the right address. He knows there is only one church he needs needs to worry about. He doesn’t need to worry about the people that left that church. He’s got them already.


59 posted on 04/19/2012 2:29:42 PM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: MomwithHope
I hear you but I have read almost 70% of Catholics no longer believe in the Real Presence.

So their opinion affected your belief rather than the words of our Savior?

60 posted on 04/19/2012 2:29:49 PM PDT by NYer (He who hides in his heart the remembrance of wrongs is like a man who feeds a snake on his chest. St)
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To: RnMomof7

You won’t know if you’re saved until your particular judgment, which is what both Scripture and the Church teach. The fact that you still haven’t learned that is proof that you left because of what St. Jerome called “ignorance”.


61 posted on 04/19/2012 2:31:05 PM PDT by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: OpusatFR
Is it funny, or tragic?

I hope it's not sacrilegious ... I don't intend it to be.

62 posted on 04/19/2012 2:31:28 PM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: metmom

You won’t know if you’re saved until your particular judgment which is exactly what both Scripture and the Church teach.


63 posted on 04/19/2012 2:35:13 PM PDT by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: RnMomof7
.. things like the mass, prayer to saints..a deified Mary,a non biblical priesthood and mass..those are marks of a man made church..not the church of Jesus Christ..so we leave.

Amen Sister!

My wife was RC and her father was EO. They both became Evangelical Christians. In my wife's case it was just opening Scripture that triggered her desire to join a Bible based church and for my FIL it was coming to services with us and really hearing The Gospel.

I think it's clear that the RCC is not capable of real reform and they will always have a problem with members leaving. I'm thankful that some, such as yourself, find Bible based churches.

64 posted on 04/19/2012 2:36:16 PM PDT by wmfights
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To: netmilsmom
Correction: I think that some people are going to be REALLY surprised about who they meet if they walk through those pearly gates.

The "once saved always saved" crowd will be in for a rude awakening.

65 posted on 04/19/2012 2:38:01 PM PDT by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: metmom; RnMomof7; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; caww; ...
I had no preconceived notions of what to expect out of Scripture.

What a great way to approach Bible study.

66 posted on 04/19/2012 2:43:37 PM PDT by wmfights
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To: RnMomof7
How many times have you actually sat down and read Scripture, from cover to cover? I ask because it is quite apparent from the questions that you've posed that the answer is never. Also, when did you pull the plug and leave, pre or post July 1968?

"Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation. For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost." 2 Peter 1:20-21

"And account the longsuffering of our Lord, salvation; as also our most dear brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, hath written to you: As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction." 2 Peter 3:15-16

67 posted on 04/19/2012 2:53:46 PM PDT by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: Morgana
why should we... they gonna change their mind or something???
68 posted on 04/19/2012 2:54:05 PM PDT by Chode (American Hedonist - *DTOM* -ww- NO Pity for the LAZY)
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To: miss marmelstein
It's the most beautiful, the most intellectual of the Christian faiths.

And all of the pagan practices are appealing to the senses. Candles, incense, holy water, gregorian chants, statues everywhere, stained glass windows. Very convincing, until you open the bible and read it and discover there are bookloads of things that Catholic Church does that the bible warns against.
69 posted on 04/19/2012 2:54:43 PM PDT by crosshairs (As long as there is evil, "Coexist" is impossible.)
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To: metmom; RnMomof7; wmfights; CynicalBear; boatbums; caww
"I had no preconceivd notions of what to expect out of Scripture."

Great post mm, and I agree, wmfights. That IS a great way to approach Bible study. Instead of letting God's Word flow naturally, and comparing Scripture with Scripture, too many people take their preconceived notions of what they were taught It says. They bring "church baggage" with them, and want it to say what THEY want it to say. When it does not, and seems to contradict itself, they simply throw those Scriptures out, instead of COMPARING the Scriptures to find the answer. The Bible does NOT contradict itself. But preconceived notions do.

There is a natural flow and a clear way to find our way through God's Word. We first need to find out WHERE we ARE in God's timeline. And WHO we are, and WHO we ARE NOT.

70 posted on 04/19/2012 2:56:39 PM PDT by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing are for an eternity..)
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To: wmfights
I think it's clear that the RCC is not capable of real reform and they will always have a problem with members leaving.

As long as Catholics have large families and babies are baptized as Catholic, they may be able to keep up with the pace of those leaving after they see the light.
71 posted on 04/19/2012 2:58:26 PM PDT by crosshairs (As long as there is evil, "Coexist" is impossible.)
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To: mdmathis6
"Simply speaking the truth of Jesus causes many to react out of anger for their darkness does not like the light."

This is not a doctrinal issue between separated followers of Jesus. Loving one another, "in our thoughts and in our words, in what we do and fail to do" in kindness, respect and beatitude, as yhe Word Incarnate commands defines us as Christians. It must accompany loving God because it is He who commands it. Those are the two Greatest Commandments. If you simply love God, as was preached in the Old Law you fail the mission given by Jesus.

"Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter." - Matthew 7:21

It is not our words that change anyone's heart, it is the Grace of God through the Holy Spirit that changes people. All we can do is to help prepare the way. Conversion never happens through force, coercion, insult or ridicule. It takes the Fruit of the Holy Spirit. Those, on whose lips and in whose actions we do not see evidence of the Fruit of the Holy Spirit are not acting in concert with the Holy Spirit.

"You have heard that it was said, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." - Matthew 5:43-48

72 posted on 04/19/2012 2:58:32 PM PDT by Natural Law (If you love the Catholic Church raise your hands, if not raise your standards.)
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To: RnMomof7

You’ve deluded yourself into thinking you already know where you’ll spend eternity. Scripture says quite differently.


73 posted on 04/19/2012 2:59:57 PM PDT by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: SnakeDoctor

It matters to Him.


74 posted on 04/19/2012 3:02:50 PM PDT by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: mdmathis6

>>So we must be cautious as Christians in the censuring of one another in the speaking of truth...<<

Here is the absolute truth, it’s freakin rude to have someone say, “I’ll pray for you.” and not say “Thank you.” This is simple Barney stuff taught to preschoolers. (”Please don’t forget to say ‘please’, thank you for saying ‘Thank you’ etc.) And you can go off on your interpretation of scripture to your hearts content (because the Word of God is absolute but one’s interpretation of it is up for debate) however it has NOTHING to do with a person who has such a closed heart that she can’t graciously accept a prayer given in kindness.


75 posted on 04/19/2012 3:02:50 PM PDT by netmilsmom (I am Breitbart)
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To: crosshairs

Oh, begone! Take your silly Robert Mitchum “Night of the Hunter” act to someone else.


76 posted on 04/19/2012 3:03:56 PM PDT by miss marmelstein
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To: mdmathis6

Thank you! That’s so sweet - I wish I could think I was one of His lost sheep.

As Rhett Butler said, there are many “good phrases in that Book, aren’t there?”


77 posted on 04/19/2012 3:11:07 PM PDT by miss marmelstein
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To: A.A. Cunningham; RnMomof7
I'm curious as to how many times you have sat down and read Scripture, from cover to cover, A.A. Cunningham. I ask because of the Scriptures you posted: 2Peter 1:20-21, and 2 Peter 3:15-16. It seems from your posting that the answer is never. Do you have any idea what those verses are talking about? Turn in your Bible to Dan. 12:8-10, then 1 Pet. 1:10-12. It's called comparing Scripture with Scripture.

"And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, what shall be the end of these things? And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end." Dan. 12:8-10.

"Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: SEARCHING WHAT, OR WHAT MANNER OF TIME the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow." 1 Pet. 1:10-11.

In other words, Old testament writers frequently did not understand the prophesies made known through them.

Simple, huh?

I'm pretty sure RnMom isn't claiming to be a prophet...RnMom is doing what we are called to do: STUDY THE WORD. Search the Scriptures daily to see if these things are so. Rightly divide the Word of Truth.

You appear to be using Scripture to say the believer has no right or duty to read and study God's Word. 2 Tim. 2:15 is maybe a good place to begin to understand how we become approved workmen for God. Hint: It's NOT by waiting for the magisterium to hand down doctrines to live by. Not by a long shot.

78 posted on 04/19/2012 3:22:33 PM PDT by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing are for an eternity..)
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To: crosshairs
Here is what you are looking for:

.

CatholicsComeHome - Real People, Real Stories

.

79 posted on 04/19/2012 3:25:13 PM PDT by Jeff Chandler (This place is nuts.)
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To: miss marmelstein; RnMomof7
Were you really EVER a Catholic? Fallen away Catholics - or lapsed Catholics - have a great deal of angst and pathos regarding their lost faith. You seem to have only hostility.

That accusation is hurled at EVERYONE who leaves the church for doctrinal reasons.

I guess you're not familiar with RnMom's Catholic history which she has posted on FR before.

In short, YES, she was a real Catholic. I have no doubt she knew more Catholic doctrine when she left the church than any 10 lay Catholics you randomly pull off the street.

80 posted on 04/19/2012 3:30:17 PM PDT by metmom ( For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: NYer
Another admonition made back then was to NEVER enter a non-Catholic Church.

So the truth comes out. Sheesh, when I relate on FR that I was taught that as a child, I'm accused of making it up (aka lying).

81 posted on 04/19/2012 3:32:00 PM PDT by metmom ( For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: mdmathis6; RnMomof7
Simply speaking the truth of Jesus causes many to react out of anger for their darkness does not like the light. So true.

Jesus spoke the truth and being Jesus, he always did it in love. How could He not. And yet, look at some of the ways He expressed that. The woes and the clearing of the Temple.

In the end, they crucified Him, simply because He spoke the truth. The enemy does not like being exposed and will always react to the truth.

Before someone goes around accusing others of being *unloving* and that's why they're being taken wrongly, they need to make sure they're not simply blame shifting because they're being offended by the truth.

82 posted on 04/19/2012 3:44:10 PM PDT by metmom ( For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: A.A. Cunningham; RnMomof7
You won’t know if you’re saved until your particular judgment, which is what both Scripture and the Church teach.

1 John 5:13 13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

So who's wrong here? You? Or the Apostle John and the Holy Spirit?

The fact that you still haven’t learned that is proof that you left because of what St. Jerome called “ignorance”.

Who cares what Jerome had to say on the matter? Who's he anyway?

83 posted on 04/19/2012 3:48:11 PM PDT by metmom ( For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: jp3; RnMomof7

>> “Didn’t Jesus hold a “mass” the night before he was crucified? “ <<

.
Most certainly not!

Jesus demonstrated to his own, how to celebrate the REMEMBRANCE of his death at Passover, not how to hold a pagan seance with a false priest presiding over a lie.
.


84 posted on 04/19/2012 3:52:52 PM PDT by editor-surveyor
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To: RnMomof7

Thanks for the ping.

Good that they are looking candidly at themselves.


85 posted on 04/19/2012 3:54:36 PM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: NYer; RnMomof7

>> “Specifically?” <<

.
She stated: “prayer to saints..a deified Mary,a non biblical priesthood and mass.”

What more answer could need? Those four things are a total denial of Christ.
.


86 posted on 04/19/2012 3:58:16 PM PDT by editor-surveyor
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To: NYer

Wife & I recently moved to Jacksonville, FL. We had been attending a WONDERFUL Maronite parish in SC that was very small with an incredibly active priest. I retrospect I wish we had carted the people & the church building down here with us.

We get to Jax & discover there are no small parishes. They are all very large. There is a Maronite rite parish close by but they speak 90% arabic & 10% english. There’s a Latin rite parish less than a mile from the house but the Pastor of the parish read with dripping disdain the Bishop’s letter about the HHS mandate. “How can I be bothered with such nonsense” was his tone as he read the letter.

We attended a Latin Mass on Sunday evenings at a Syriac Rite parish for a time. Finally we discovered a parish that brooks no BS on any level on any issue and we are grateful the Lord has led us there. Thankful we were able to make the journey!


87 posted on 04/19/2012 4:01:13 PM PDT by TheStickman
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Comment #88 Removed by Moderator

To: A.A. Cunningham

Says who?

SnakeDoc


89 posted on 04/19/2012 4:05:16 PM PDT by SnakeDoctor ("I've shot people I like more for less." -- Raylan Givens)
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To: editor-surveyor

Mary is NOT a god in the Catholic faith.


90 posted on 04/19/2012 4:06:49 PM PDT by miss marmelstein
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To: miss marmelstein

>>Uh, no...I don’t stalk her on Catholic threads so how the hell would I know anything about her? Fine, she’s another angry ex-Catholic.<<

I admire you greatly.

Personally I don’t really care at all what religion anyone is. And with that, a person can make up any story to fit an agenda. If I told you that my Uncle is a Bishop, it could be true or it could be false. If I told you that I have five kids, it could be true or it could be false. How would anyone prove it?

So some of the stories on FR (especially those that are used to belittle others) I take with a grain of salt. I’m just perfectly okay with what I do, no matter how sour or bitter anyone else is.

I remember Dear Judith Anne flipping out with the twisting of Catholic teachings. I would tell her, let it go, some people are shallow and need to slam us to make themselves feel better. Now I know she is up there praying for those that brought her to tears. SOMEONE can’t muster up a thank you to a poster who offers a prayer. Yet, these are the same people that when a loved one is sick or something disastrous happens, asks for prayers and we are on the front line.

I remember seeing one and wanting so badly to say, “Will you take Catholic prayers?”, but I try not to be nasty.

God Bless.


91 posted on 04/19/2012 4:27:31 PM PDT by netmilsmom (I am Breitbart)
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To: netmilsmom

The only thing that really makes me angry is when people denigrate the beauty and art of the Church as some sort of paganism. (Ya know how we worship statues, lol!) The Church gave the world Leonardo and Michaelangelo and I, for one, am damned grateful!

Take care and keep cool.


92 posted on 04/19/2012 4:36:21 PM PDT by miss marmelstein
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To: MomwithHope

Where exactly did you read this?


93 posted on 04/19/2012 5:00:24 PM PDT by TheStickman
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To: RnMomof7
People aren't stupid, generally. When practice and belief contradict the Bible, Christ's flock go looking for the meat of truth which supports the Scriptures.

God willing, He leads them to it. Thank you, Jesus Christ.

94 posted on 04/19/2012 5:06:28 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: ArrogantBustard; Cronos
Nah, we don’t want folks who reject Christ’s divinity. Goodbye to them and good riddance..

Not so, my FRiend. We want them to abandon their unbelief ... we pray that God grant them the grace of repentance and conversion ... we want them to join us in the light of God's Truth.

As much as I dislike disagreeing with friend Cronos, I will, and side with you AB.

Matthew 5: 10 Blessed are they that suffer persecution for justice' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11 Blessed are ye when they shall revile you, and persecute you, and speak all that is evil against you, untruly, for my sake: 12 Be glad and rejoice, for your reward is very great in heaven. For so they persecuted the prophets that were before you.

We bring the Gospel of Jesus to those who at the moment prefer the gospel of the god in the mirror. We are not thanked overly much for it.

95 posted on 04/19/2012 5:06:45 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: RnMomof7
My church looks more like the NT church than Rome does..

http://maps.google.com/maps?um=1&hl=en&safe=off&q=rome&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&biw=1424&bih=767&wrapid=tlif133488047947711&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=il

Rome is a city, not a church.

96 posted on 04/19/2012 5:10:54 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: NYer; MomwithHope
No one has yet posted what I believe is at the root of anyone leaving - no longer believing in the Real Presence.

Jesus said it was so, what's not to believe?

For the anti Catholic, it is not about Jesus. It is about Paul. Remember we went through a series of lectures that Jesus was irrelevant - it is Paul to whom we must turn. The Gospels were to the Jews only. Jude was to the Jews. Peter was to the Jews. John was to the Jews. James (the epistle of straw) was definitely to the Jews only. The lecture continued to the effect that since the Jews rejected Jesus, anything that was said to them was completely separate from what the Gentiles were to believe.

I challenged several of the antiCatholics to count the times and amount of time that Paul went to the Jews, as opposed to their claims, based upon Scripture. There were two who confirmed my statements. They habitually debate honestly. The rest huffed and puffed and disappeared.

Their premise is wrong and therefore their conclusions are also wrong.

97 posted on 04/19/2012 5:18:51 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: A.A. Cunningham
You won’t know if you’re saved until your particular judgment which is exactly what both Scripture and the Church teach.

It's not what Scripture teaches at all. You're wrong there. Show me one verse that tells us we won't know until we're standing before God.

1 John 5:9-13 9 If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater, for this is the testimony of God that he has borne concerning his Son. 10 Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. 11 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 1:9-14 9 And so, from the day we heard, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, 10 so as to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God. 11 May you be strengthened with all power, according to his glorious might, for all endurance and patience with joy, 12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in light. 13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

John 3:14-18 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. 16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

John 10:27-29 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

Ephesians 2:1-10 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

What Catholics fail to realize is that when someone is born again through faith in Christ, they ARE saved, present tense. The transaction has taken place in the spiritual realm.

So we can say, like Paul, .....

Galatians 2:20-21 20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

Now that I am alive in Him, I am seated in the heavenly places with Him.

My salvation is something I already have possession of.

98 posted on 04/19/2012 5:22:09 PM PDT by metmom ( For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: miss marmelstein
Thank you for your kind words, but when I go back, I go back as a total Papist, lol! It's the most beautiful, the most intellectual of the Christian faiths. It is very much an aesthetic with me, as well as a faith.

I have been blessed with orthodox and wonderful bishops in the past and have been saddled with a bishop sent in about 5 years ago that I have publicly put down in a Catholic television coverage and continued to do so in public and in diocesan meetings.

My parish priest and deacon pounded my back and shook my hand and continue to do so to this day. The deacon's wife introduced me to her mother as 'the Conservative of the parish'.

Do you have an orthodox bishop and parish priest that you can turn to? Most of the young Latins are way more orthodox than the ones from the hippie generation.

99 posted on 04/19/2012 5:23:48 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: metmom
"The woes and the clearing of the Temple."

I have often seen that example used to justify very unChristian behavior, but none of us are Jesus. He never told us to drive out the money changers and overturn their booths, he told us to love and forgive one another. Unless we are able to perfectly judge the living and the dead, heal the sick, raise the dead, forgive sins and take up our cross and be crucified we cannot claim for ourselves the privilege of His actions nor the vanity of His name.

"Before someone goes around accusing others of being *unloving* and that's why they're being taken wrongly, they need to make sure they're not simply blame shifting because they're being offended by the truth."

I haven't seen anyone called unloving, only actions and words being absent the Fruit of the Holy Spirit. I'm not blame shifting because I am not offended. However, I know from my own experience that if anyone has true charity in their hearts there will not be harsh tones, condescension, insults, and innuendo on their lips nor contempt, indifference and arrogance in their deeds.

" You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?" - Matthew 7:16

100 posted on 04/19/2012 5:25:06 PM PDT by Natural Law (If you love the Catholic Church raise your hands, if not raise your standards.)
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