Posted on 04/30/2012 7:51:06 PM PDT by wmfights
LOL!!!I'd love to know why you continually set yourself up to be shot out of the water.
I know I'm wasting my time, but let's see you do a point-by-point, Scripturally-supported, factual refutation of the original article that that response is attached to. Oh, and you'll have to, for the moment, act like you don't believe that the book of Revelation was fulfilled in 70AD.
I can't wait to see this.
Excuse me? Did you even read what I wrote?
Oh, and you'll have to, for the moment, act like you don't believe that the book of Revelation was fulfilled in 70AD.
My position does not require that, and I don't hold to it.
If you're having trouble with making the necessary distinctions, ask, and someone will help.
You have to understand that, when it involves me, you will be called out on your misrepresentations and lame attempts to "prove" you are right by posting a response I made without addressing the subject matter or context that the response was made to.
I didn't expect you to be able to refute the article for many reasons, first of which is the fact that you would be required to deal with Scripture that you have had to discard and deny to make your "doctrines" work.
Anyone who may be interested can go to the original post and read the article and come away not only with an understanding of how people will be saved during the Tribulation and the requirements God has for one holding on to their salvation during the Tribulation, but also with a clear understanding that your posts are simply not to be taken seriously.
For example, both Jeremiah's and Ezekiel's prophecies of the restoration of Israel and Judah foretold what would take place after the Jews returned from Babylon. The land would be filled, the temple rebuilt, etc. and these things did, in fact, occur.
But the N.T. makes the point that there was a larger and even more significant fulfillment of these prophecies involving not an earthly kingdom but the heavenly one.
It was on heavenly thrones that the apostles and others chosen would rule and act as kings and priests over the whole earth, not a small portion in the Middle East.(Rev. 20:4-7)
Another example of the authors misunderstanding of the Scriptures is the statement:
“Believing Gentiles cannot be incorporated into Israel because Paul says they are now part of a new structure—the new man.”
But Paul says exactly the opposite! In Romans 11:17-24 Paul uses the olive tree as an illustration. He says the natural olive tree, Israel, had branches lopped off due to lack of faith and that the Romans though of wild stock had been grafted in to become part of that tree.
If God was willing to lop off the natural branches for their lack of faith how much more so the Romans for lack of faith.
And should those natural branches, Israelites, show faith they could be grafted back in again.
Jesus said the kingdom would be taken from the Jewish nation and given to a nation, spiritual Israel with its king/priests in heaven, producing its fruits.
The author of this article simply cannot bring forward a coherent understanding of whom God views as “Israel” or what His kingdom is.
Bookmark for later when I can pick myself up off the floor and respond with clarity and Scripture. I cannot believe some of the replies I’m reading here...
For example, both Jeremiah's and Ezekiel's prophecies of the restoration of Israel and Judah foretold what would take place after the Jews returned from Babylon. The land would be filled, the temple rebuilt, etc. and these things did, in fact, occur.
But the N.T. makes the point that there was a larger and even more significant fullfillment of these prophecies involving not an earthly kingdom but the heavenly one.
It was on heavenly thrones that the apostles and others chosen would rule and act as kings and priests over the whole earth, not a small portion in the Middle East.(Rev. 20:4-7)
Another example of the authors misunderstanding of the Scriptures is the statement:
“Believing Gentiles cannot be incorporated into Israel because Paul says they are now part of a new structure—the new man.”
But Paul says exactly the opposite! In Romans 11:17-24 Paul uses the olive tree as an illustration. He says the natural olive tree, Israel, had branches lopped off due to lack of faith and that the Romans though of wild stock had been grafted in to become part of that tree.
If God was willing to lop off the natural branches for their lack of faith how much more so the Romans for lack of faith.
And should those natural branches, Israelites, show faith they could be grafted back in again.
Jesus said the kingdom would be taken from the Jewish nation and given to a nation, spiritual Israel with its king/priests in heaven, producing its fruits.
The author of this article simply cannot bring forward a coherent understanding of whom God views as “Israel” or what His kingdom is.
It does? Well, let's just take a look at who Israel is in God's sight.
These facts about how God defines Israel tells us without a doubt that the Church has not replaced Israel. In addition, we have these Scriptures that tell us that the New Covenant was made with Israel, and the Church was added in by nothing but the mercy of God:
"Thus says the LORD Who gives the sun for light by day And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar; The LORD of hosts is His name: 36 “If this fixed order departs From before Me,” declares the LORD, “Then the offspring of Israel also will cease From being a nation before Me forever.”
Thus says the LORD, “If the heavens above can be measured And the foundations of the earth searched out below, Then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel For all that they have done,” declares the LORD.
“Behold, days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when the city will be rebuilt for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The measuring line will go out farther straight ahead to the hill Gareb; then it will turn to Goah. 40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the LORD; it will not be plucked up or overthrown anymore forever.” (Jeremiah 31:31-40)
24 “My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd; and they will walk in My ordinances and keep My statutes and observe them. 25 They will live on the land that I gave to Jacob My servant, in which your fathers lived; and they will live on it, they, and their sons and their sons’ sons, forever; and David My servant will be their prince forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will [b]place them and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in their midst forever. 27 My dwelling place also will be with them; and I will be their God, and they will be My people. 28 And the nations will know that I am the LORD who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forever.”’” (Ezekiel 37:21-28)
6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. 8 For finding fault with them, He says, "BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH; 9 NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD. 10 "FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS. AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. 11 "AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN, AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, `KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM. 12 "FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES, AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE." 13 When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear." (Hebrews 8:1-13)
So we know, straight from the lips of God and without any doubt whatsoever, that Israel is a different entity than the Church, that God has different purposes for Israel, that He indeed does have future plans for Israel, that the New Covenant was intended for Israel first, and that God will absolutely redeem His people and they will come to Him for salvation.
Now we know who Israel is in God's sight. He has told us who Israel is in His sight with no room for misunderstanding and no room for deliberately lying about who Israel is in His sight.
For example, both Jeremiah's and Ezekiel's prophecies of the restoration of Israel and Judah foretold what would take place after the Jews returned from Babylon. The land would be filled, the temple rebuilt, etc. and these things did, in fact, occur.
God give Ezekiel an illustration of the future using two sticks. Ezekiel took two sticks, one representing Judah, and one representing the northern kingdom of Israel. God tells Ezekiel, ”join the sticks” together in his hand; these sticks represent the future union of the divided tribes under the name Israel. There will no longer two tribes but one nation, called “Israel”. The Israelites were taken captive by Assyria in 722 B.C., while Judah was taken captive in 605, 597 and 586 B.C. by Babylon. Now both tribes were in the same land, since Babylon defeated Assyria. In the future, the nation would be known as Israel. And, in 70AD, the Jews began the diaspora, in fulfillment of prophecy, for over 2000 years, and in the late 19th century, God began to bring His people back to the land He gave them, just as He said He was going to.
When they resettle the land of Israel, they would resettle it as one people. Only twice since the Babylonian captivity, did a Jewish nation exist, once during the Maccabean period (164-63 B.C.) and once in our day (1948- Current). Only in our day, did the Jewish kingdom have the name Israel, thus beginning to fulfill the words of Ezekiel written 2600-years ago.
It wasn't until 1948 that the prophecy of Ezekiel was fulfilled. The nation of Israel was reestablished, it was named Israel, and God continues to bring His people back from among the nations to the land that He gave them, and He continues to keep His promises that He made to them.
Since the second temple, built after the Babylonian captivity, was destroyed by the Romans, and God tells us that there will be a temple in place during the Tribulation in which the Antichrist will stand and declare Himself to be God, and there is not currently a temple in Israel, then we know that that prophecy has not been fulfilled but will be sometime in the future.
But the N.T. makes the point that there was a larger and even more significant fullfillment of these prophecies involving not an earthly kingdom but the heavenly one.
It was on heavenly thrones that the apostles and others chosen would rule and act as kings and priests over the whole earth, not a small portion in the Middle East.(Rev. 20:4-7)
This is a description of what John was shown in Heaven which will be in existence during the Tribulation. The verse then goes on to say that the Church will serve with Christ during his Millennial Kingdom on earth. We also know from Luke 1:32-33 that His 1000 year kingdom will be a literal, earthly kingdom, where Christ's throne will be in Jerusalem, and we know from Matthew 19:28 that the twelve Jewish apostles will rule the twelve tribes of Israel during the Millennial Kingdom.
All of this will take place in Jerusalem, which is in the Middle East.
Jesus said the kingdom would be taken from the Jewish nation and given to a nation, spiritual Israel with its king/priests in heaven, producing its fruits.
The fact that the kingdom was taken away from the Jews and given to another nation, aka the Church, is a temporary condition, as the Church age will end at the Rapture. As we know from the Scriptures listed above, Israel will be purified and redeemed and saved and will go back to being what God originally intended them to be. He will write His law on their hearts, they will not have to be taught His law, and, unlike Gentiles during the Millennial Kingdom, there will not be one unsaved Jew.
The author of this article simply cannot bring forward a coherent understanding of whom God views as “Israel” or what His kingdom is
On the contrary, it is those who have to approach the Bible already deceived and enslaved to the demonic doctrine of replacement theology who have to twist Scripture to make it fit their false doctrines, and when that doesn't work, allegorize and spirualize the Scriptures, in direct disobedience to God, to try to make the Bible fit their false doctrines.
There is not one verse in the Bible that supports replacement theology, and replacement theologists have no problem denying the four-fifths of the Bible that detail God's future plans for His chosen, covenant people in order to attempt to force Scripture into validating the demonic teaching of replacement theology that they love.
It is replacement theologists who lie about Israel and what God's intentions toward His covenant nation are who don't have a coherent understanding about Israel.
All of this will take place in Jerusalem, which is in the Middle East.”
Believing Christ's Kingdom of the Heavens to be an earthly kingdom was the mistake many made even amongst believers.
But the rulers, the king/priests were to rule from heaven, it was after all a Heavenly Kingdom Christ preached not a restoration of an earthly line of kings.
That being the case then the prophecies must be understood in that context.
When God says:
“He who sits in the heavens shall laugh; the Lord shall hold them in derision. Then He shall speak to them in His wrath, and distress them in His deep displeasure: “Yet I have set My King on My holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: The Lord has said to Me, ‘You are My Son, today I have begotten You, ask of Me, and I will give you the nations for Your inheritance, and the ends of the earth for Your possession. You shall break them with a rod of iron; You shall dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.’ ” (Psalm 2:4-9)
Are you, at this time, denying those Scriptures? Are you, at this time, stating that God is lying, that there will be no literal, physical kingdom of Jesus Christ?
“I believe that many who have been brought into the Church are, unbeknown to themselves, actually children of the promise of Abraham, his and Jacob’s biological descendants. God has been recover(ing) them, only in a different way, into His Church.”
Wonderfully correct.
Wrong assumption, Christ’s throne is heavenly. (Rev.3:21) As are the thrones of those king/priests who would rule over the earth. (Rev. 5:10)
The resurrected Jesus acts as a high priest and sits at he right hand of God. (Heb. 8:1, 10:12)
As Paul said in Gal. 3:26, “The Jerusalem above is free and she is our mother”. Thus he could say their citizenship was in heaven. (Phil. 3:20) Paul was going to be one of those heavenly kings to rule over the earth in a heavenly kingdom.
God states another fact when He says
Thus says the Lord: ‘I will return to Zion, and dwell in the midst of Jerusalem. Jerusalem shall be called the City of Truth, the Mountain of the Lord of hosts, the Holy Mountain.’ (Zechariah 8:3)
and
“Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion! For behold, I am coming and I will dwell in your midst,” says the Lord.
Many nations shall be joined to the Lord in that day, and they shall become My people. And I will dwell in your midst. Then you will know that the Lord of hosts has sent Me to you. And the Lord will take possession of Judah as His inheritance in the Holy Land, and will again choose Jerusalem.” (Zechariah 2:10-12)
Those aren't assumptions either, they are facts, and they will happen.
Christ’s throne is heavenly. (Rev.3:21)
Until He returns to earth with His previously raptured Bride at the end of the Tribulation:
And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will [d]rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the [e]wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16 And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.” (Revelation 19:11-16)
So we know from God that Jesus will return to earth, at the end of the Tribulation, with His Bride, and will begin His Millennial Kingdom. No assumptions there, just simple facts.
As are the thrones of those king/priests who would rule over the earth. (Rev. 5:10)
Yep, the Scripture does say that Jesus will have a literal, earthly kingdom and His Bride will rule that kingdom with Him.
The resurrected Jesus acts as a high priest and sits at he right hand of God. (Heb. 8:1, 10:12)
Jesus is at the right hand of God until He returns for His Kingdom:
The LORD says to my Lord: “Sit at My right hand Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”
2The LORD will stretch forth Your strong scepter from Zion, saying, rule in the midst of Your enemies.” (Psalm 110, 1-2)
So we know that Jesus will sit at the right hand of God until His enemies are defeated at Armageddon and He returns to earth for His Millennial Kingdom.
Paul was going to be one of those heavenly kings to rule over the earth in a heavenly kingdom.
That's odd. When I look at Galatians 3:26, I see "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.".
Philippians 3:20 tells those who know Christ as Savior that our home is in Heaven as opposed to this earth. Since the Bible does not contradict itself, Philippians 3:20 does not negate the scores of Biblical passages that talk about Jesus Christ's literal, earthly one-thousand-year kingdom on earth.
That's not supersessionism. That's Christianity.
Or why be a Christian?
This was a point Paul argued to the Hebrews. The Mount Zion that Christ was to rule from was the the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. (Heb. 12:22)
You quoted Rev. 19, surely you noticed that Christ and fellow judges wage war from heaven.
“14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses”
Your arguments that Christ would return to the city of Jerusalem (and what? leave the king/priests behind?) simply isn't supported in the Scriptures.
BRAVA! BRAVA! HEAR! HEAR! Brilliantly stated! Encore!
Actually, I think it happens BEFORE that. Perhaps the Battle of Gog/Magog... The Temple is rebuilt in Holiness... the whole of Jerusalem is sanctified - The bells on the horses and the jugs for the water have the name of YHWH upon them... All of this, according to the Prophets, happens when the Temple is rebuilt... And the Temple IS THERE for Yeshua to enter into through the Eastern Gate after His foot touches down on the mount of olives!
And if that is so, That allows a great portion of Judah to participate in the rapture - How can YHWH allow a part of Yeshua's Bride to ride the lightning? It seems it will be the Left Behind of both Christian and Jew (by then ONE THING) that will be the Tribulation Saints...
I know that is weird, but it works... and it puts the Rapture mid-trib... living through the time of Jacob's Trouble, enduring the Antichrist, but not the wrath of YHWH. All the saints are with Yeshua when He comes to deliver that, and establish the throne of David!
God's kingdom at present is spiritual through those who know Him as Savior. But this conndition will end soon and Scripture is more than clear that there will be a literal, physical return of Christ to earth and He will set up a literal, physical one-thousand year kingdom on this earth.
And it doesn't matter how many times those who cling to man-made, false doctrines scream and wail and moan and cry about it and deny the Word of God. There will be a literal, physical, one-thousand year kingdom of Jesus Christ on this earth. He said He will have that kingdom on this earth, and it will happen.
Whether you like it or not. You have been given the Scriptures which proves that this will happen and the fact that you choose to discard and reject those Scriptures could not be more meaningless.
You quoted Rev. 19, surely you noticed that Christ and fellow judges wage war from heaven.
The book of Revelation is the accounting of a vision that the apostle John was given by Jesus Christ. Revelation 19 tells us about Christ's return to earth, with His Bride (And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.) at which time, when He gets to earth, He conducts war. This is the time when He puts an end to the Armageddon campaign, conducts the judgments of those unsaved who survived the Tribulation, and sets up His kingdom.
Revelation 19 says nothing about war being waged from Heaven.
Your arguments that Christ would return to the city of Jerusalem (and what? leave the king/priests behind?) simply isn't supported in the Scriptures.
You were given the Scriptures that state that Jesus Christ will rule a literal, physical, earthly kingdom from Jerusalem. If you don't understand those Scriptures, that's a spiritual problem; if you reject and deny those Scriptures, that's also a spiritual problem. The fact that you either don't understand what the passages I provided you say or you deliberately deny them is no one's problem but yours.
Here's some more Scripture you probably won't like:
From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose. What I have said, that I will bring about; what I have planned, that I will do. (Isaiah 46:11)
So, when God says in Scripture that He is going to do something, He will do it, despite the most desperate wishes of those who don't like what He plans to do and despite their most desperate attempts to deny those Scriptures out of existence. There will be a Millennial Kingdom on this earth and Jesus will rule that kingdom from Jerusalem and there isn't a person alive who can stop that from happening.
And as for the kings/priests? Here is their future:
You’ve raised many questions in my mind so I’ll seek your views on them.
So do you believe Christ will take up human form again so he can literally ride a white horse in battle?
We know that when He was resurrected, and remained with the disciples for a time, He could be touched, He ate, He was considered by those around Him to be human.
We know that He ascended into Heaven in that exact form.
Is there any Scripture that tells us that He somehow changed when He got to Heaven? I don't know of any.
So we can probably safely know that He will return in the same "form" He left.
God gives us the account of what was said when Christ ascended:
The first account I composed, Theophilus, about all that Jesus began to do and teach, 2until the day when He was taken up to heaven, after He had by the Holy Spirit given orders to the apostles whom He had chosen. 3To these He also presented Himself alive after His suffering, by many convincing proofs, appearing to them over a period of forty days and speaking of the things concerning the kingdom of God. 4Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, “Which,” He said, “you heard of from Me; 5for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” (Acts 1:1-5)
And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them. 11They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.” (Acts 1:9-11)
So based on what God's inerrant Scripture says, and without adding anything to it or taking anything away from it, I think we can know that Jesus won't have to "take up human form". I think we can know that He will be the same when He returns as He was when He ascended.
If someone approaches a subject with a closed mind all they process is the information that supports their predetermined view.
We agree. ;-)
God's family of believing Jews grew into all those who believe the Messiah came and conquered death and is God Himself.
In the church age we call our brothers and sisters Christians.
However, why partially blind Israel and is this blinding permanent? We both read our Bibles regularly and have read Romans 11 closely.
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