Posted on 05/17/2012 5:40:57 PM PDT by Gamecock
A good place to start in your study of what Biblical redemption is would be the Mosaic Law.
Jesus didn't say any of the quote above when Nicodemus asked Him to explain "born again." Paul is talking about the care and devotion a husband and wife should have for each other like Christ has for His Church in Ephesians 5:26.
The quote won't cover trying to find some "water" to prove the Protestant meaning of "Born Again" which is:
Accepting Jesus into your heart as your personal Lord and Savior, one time.
There's no "water" involved in that new meaning. "Born Again" is water baptism.
Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify it, cleansing it by the laver of water in the word of life:
Easy. Is Jesus Christ your Lord or not? Do you believe in him through faith, or not? Have you been baptized by the Holy Ghost which happens when assent of faith is given, or not? One of the biggest mistakes some people make is when they presume to interpret what the "faith" is. It is faith in Jesus Christ as our Savior, believing in Him and receiving Him as our redeemer as Scripture makes abundantly clear. To make the "faith" be about minor or man-made ideals and doctrines is NOT the faith St. Paul was talking about.
Every time the issue of "Protestant" denominations is pitched in an attempt to denigrate the concept of Sola Scriptura, it backfires in the face of the one who brings it up. I have a good source that identifies dozens if not hundreds of Catholic "denominations" and if anyone wants to claim there are 20 to 30 thousand Protestant ones, it can easily be shown upwards of 8000 are Catholic. That is why I refute the bogus canard when it raises its dishonest head.
If Roman Catholics presume that their church is the epitome of "unity in the faith", they need only look to the Eastern Orthodox religion - whom it is claimed HAVE unity with the RCC - and it becomes quite clear that unity of the faith only goes down so deep. It CANNOT be about agreement over EVERY doctrine or dogma, else even within the Catholic Church umbrella, there is NOT total unity. So, what IS God's way? The Gospel is salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. If anyone is on board with that, then we have unity of the Spirit. Jesus' prayer has been and is still being answered.
As soon as you establish your infallible bona fides I will be willing to listen to opinions contrary to the teachings of the Church. Until then if I want comedy or creative fiction I will turn on the TV for tonight's sitcoms.
Peace be with you.
“You can’t “fall short” if Christ already gave you salvation and you trusted in that.”
~ ~ ~
Salvation and redemption are two DIFFERENT words. Jesus
redeemed you on the Cross, He didn’t justify you by His
death on the Cross.
Okay, but do you deny there's "more ink" devoted to "Body and Blood" with regard to consumption, than with the "Second Birth?"
No, but neither is the amount of ink important - As I have informed you previously, the phrase 'born again' is really just a way of saying 'saved'. There is no significance beyond that - There is no ritual or rite attached thereto (other than normal baptism and such), unlike the rather convoluted sacramental rite devoted by y'all to 'body and blood'...
I will grant you that some concepts that y'all disagree with are tangentially attached - A 'born again' Christian is likely also to believe in OSAS, may tend to be non-denom. or may be *gasp* Baptist, etc - But as I said, these are not directly attributable to the 'born again' phrase, because many Protestant branches use the term as well.
I am still bewildered at your insistence upon this point, and do not understand the significance of it in your mind.
We are to eat what God give us:
“Moreover he said unto me, Son of man, eat that thou findest; eat this roll, and go speak unto the house of Israel. So I opened my mouth, and he caused me to eat that roll. And he said unto me, Son of man, cause thy belly to eat, and fill thy bowels with this roll that I give thee. Then did I eat it; and it was in my mouth as honey for sweetness. “ (Ezekiel 3:1-3)
“But thou, son of man, hear what I say unto thee; Be not thou rebellious like that rebellious house: open thy mouth, and eat that I give thee. “ (Ezekiel 2:8)
I’ve heard it said that, “If you’re not sure you are going to heaven when you die, you can be sure you’re not.”
boatbums: “Do you believe in him through faith, or not?”
To explain...One Lord, one faith, one Baptism.
~ ~ ~
Ephesians 4:5 doesn’t say “how you believe in Him”, it
proclaims there is “one faith.” Christ established one
Church. Protestantism rejected that one Church and
came up with new teachings, not of God.
One flock (one fold in some Bibles) and one shepherd simply means that there is only one Church which Jesus Christ founded.
John 10:14-16
“I am the good shepherd; I know my own and my own know me, as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, and one shepherd.”
AND
John 17:21-23
“I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me.”
John 17:21-23
How many times does Our Lord say One? Meaning oneness of
belief.
You can bring up the Orthodox who also split from Roman Catholicism but not into as many fractures as Protestantism. Protestantism is divided by the thousands!!
Why?
A Protestant gets to decide everything personally. The
meaning of Scripture, the requirements for Salvation, you
all are your own pope.
Careful, your “benignity” is showing.
>>"Born Again" is water baptism. <<
Again, baptism is only a symbol of what has already happened.
Stumped on that one were ya?
Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
One offering was Jesus death on the cross.
Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
We are redeemed not sanctified by Jesus’ death on the Cross.
You still do not understand.
Our justification is not the same as our Redemption. Jesus redeemed mankind but we must live a holy life, with the help of God’s grace, you will persevere to the end following God’s ways to gain salvation.
You have got to be kidding. God’s way to “gain” salvation? Have you never read scripture? Christ paid in full for our salvation and it was perfect and complete. Nothing we do will “gain” our salvation. Claiming we need to do something to “gain” salvation is to claim that Christ’s sacrifice on the cross was incomplete.
Not even close. I just tire of having to explain Catholic theology at the grade school level on an adult forum, but here it goes just like I explain it to kids.
If you fell into quick sand and I pulled you out I would be saving your life. If I prevented you from falling into that same quick sand I would be saving you nonetheless.
Similarly, most if us hope to be saved from our sins by Jesus after we have committed them. Mary was preserved and saved from sin before she committed them. That is certainly no less miraculous than any other Salvation. I know it goes against the Protestant grain to believe that there are some treated differently by God than others, that it is "unfair" and counter to their democratic (lower case D) mindset. In this respect Catholics display a characteristic humility.
Peace be with you.
“The word is the water. Baptism is a symbol of having already been washed of our sins by the blood of Jesus.
>>”Born Again” is water baptism. <<
Again, baptism is only a symbol of what has already happened.”
~ ~ ~
The “Word” is written and oral, both. It’s not water.
Our sins are not washed away by Our Lord’s death on the Cross.
“Baptism” is not a symbol. Water is used in Baptism.
That’s why “Born again” in the Protestant sense is not
what Jesus explains in John 3. The first Christians follow
Our Lord’s meaning...they all believed “Born Again” is
water Baptism.
Then all would be saved. Unfortunately, not all are.
Let’s do this one more time.
Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
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