Posted on 07/16/2012 5:32:19 AM PDT by Colofornian
I don’t want to put myself in the position of attacking anyone else’s particular religious beliefs as long as they aren’t trying to shove them down my throat at the point of a sword like the Muslims are.
AS an Christian outsider looking in, the Mormons appear to have some really uncoventional religious ideas outside the mainstream of traditional theological thinking in the west. However, they also appear to be patriotic, hard-working and very family oriented.
Right now, I’m very suspicious of any theological attacks on Mormonism as Romney is a Mormon, the candidate in waiting for the GOP and despite all his faults - and he has VERY many, is probably a much better choice than the Marxist Muslim Keynsian Kenyan imposter we have now.
Thank you for posting this. I was completely unaware of how "exotic" a belief structure this is. I have no intention of disparaging anyone's religion, but people's beliefs become issues when they seek to rule over others. Wasn't Mitt Romney a local leader (bishop?) in this religion? Was he aware of these tenets of his religion and would it have been his job to defend and spread them?
Shares some common ground with Scientology.
Indeed. And, note here, we're not talking about "mayor" or local city council. But THE leader of the free world. Where discernment and vulnerability/gullibility to deception becomes key character issues in foreign policy, dealing with Islam, etc.
Wasn't Mitt Romney a local leader (bishop?) in this religion? (Yes)
Per a daughter of another Lds bishop, "Mitt…held…offices of…Missionary, Missionary Zone Leader, assistant to…Mission President…,…Bishop and Stake President…You cannot attain the “calling”…to serve as Mormon Bishop or Stake President unless you are a thoroughly entrenched and obedient Mormon…I was…a Mormon Bishop’s daughter."
Source: Tricia Erickson: 'An indoctrinated Mormon should never be elected as President'
Indeed. Of course! If I as a descendent of a Mormon leader can readily find the following quotes, then what about an "insider" like Romney?
| Lds Leader | Chronological 'Prophet' or Fundamental # (or Other Title) | Overlap Areas: Could the President of the U.S. become a 'puppet' to an Lds 'Prophet?' (The Lds Prophets -- in their own words) | |
| John Taylor | Lds 'Prophet' #3 | “The Almighty has established this kingdom with order and laws and every thing pertaining thereto…[so] that when the nations shall be convulsed, we may stand forth as saviours…and finally redeem a ruined world, not only in a religious but in a political point of view.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 9, p. 342, April 13, 1862) | |
| John Taylor | Lds 'Prophet' #3 | The LDS Church -- in 2001 -- thought it well to pull this quote from John Taylor to emphasize it: "The Lord...is desirous to show us how to save ourselves, how to bless ourselves temporally and spiritually, intellectually, morally, physically, POLITICALLY..." (Lds Church owned Deseret News, Nov. 19, 1865, p. 2, as quoted in Teachings of Presidents of the Church: John Taylor (2001, p. 178). Also from p. 178: "The idea of strictly religious feelings with us, and nothing else, is out of the question...Our religion is more comprehensive than that of the world...it embraces all the interests of humanity in every conceivable phrase..." (Original source: The Gospel Kingdom, 1943, p. 168) | |
| Orson Hyde | President of the Lds Quorum of the 12 Apostles for 28 years (1847-1875) | “What the world calls ‘Mormonism’ will rule every nation...God has decreed it, and his own right arm will accomplish it. This will make the heathen rage.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 53) | |
| Heber J. Grant | Lds 'Prophet' #7 | "Elder Marion G. Romney recalled the counsel of President Heber J. Grant: 'My boy, you always keep your eye on the President of the Church, and if he ever tells you to do anything, and it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it.' Then with a twinkle in his eye, he said, 'But you don't need to worry. The Lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray'" (in Conference Report, Oct. 1960, p. 78)." Cited in Official Lds publication Search the Commandments: Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, p. 209 (1984) | |
| Harold B. Lee | Lds 'Prophet' #11 | ...President Harold B. Lee said: 'We must learn to give heed to the words and commandments that the Lord shall give through his prophet, '...as if from mine own mouth...(D&C 21:4-5)...You may not like what comes from the authority of the Church. It may contradict your political views. It may contradict your social views. It may interfere with some of your social life. But if you listen to these things, as if from the mouth of the Lord himself..." Cited in official Lds publication Remember Me: Relief Society Personal Study Guide I, p. 27 (1989) | |
| Spencer Kimball | Lds 'Prophet' #12 | "President Spencer W. Kimball said: '...We deal with many things which are thought to be not so spiritual; but all things are spiritual with the Lord, and he expects us to listen, and to obey..." (In Conference Report, Apr. 1977, p. 8; or Ensign, May 1977, p. 7) Cited in official Lds publication Come, Follow Me: Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide 1983, p.12 (1983) | |
| What about Marion G. Romney, cousin to Mitt's father? | Who was he in Lds hierarchy? (Title: 'President' - Top 3 of church as 2nd counselor to both #11 & #12 Lds 'prophets') | "Elder Neal A. Maxwell has said: 'Following the living prophets is something that must be done in all seasons and circumstances. We must be like President Marion G. Romney, who humbly said, '..I have never hesitated to follow the counsel of the Authorities of the Church even though it crossed my social, professional, and political life' (Conference Report, April 1941, p. 123). There are, or will be moments when prophetic declarations collide with our pride or our seeming personal interests...Do I believe in the living prophet even when he speaks on matters affecting me and my specialty directly? Or do I stop sustaining the prophet when his words fall in my territory? if the latter, the prophet is without honor in our country! (Things As They Really Are, p. 73). Cited in official Lds publication, Search the Commandments: Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, pp. 275-276 (1984) | |
| Ezra Taft Benson | Lds 'Prophet' #13 | Benson speech given 2/26/80 @BYU. Summary: “…remember, if there is ever a conflict between earthly knowledge and the words of the prophet, you stand with the prophet…” (See excerpts re: 3 of 14 'fundamentals' below) Source: Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet | |
| Benson (cont'd) | Fundamental #5 | 5. The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time. (My Q: Ya hear that Mitt Romney?) | |
| Benson (cont'd) | Fundamental #9 | 9. The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual. (My Q: Still listening, Mitt?) | |
| Benson (cont'd) | Fundamental #10 | 10. The prophet may advise on civic matters. (My Q: What say ye Mitt?) | |
| B.H. Roberts | LDS Historian and Seventy. Note: Roberts was an elected Democratic Congressman from Utah in 1898 -- but was NEVER seated by Congress because of grass roots uproar vs. Roberts, who took a THIRD simultaneous wife in the early 1890s. Grass roots America collected 7 MILLION signatures on 28 banners and presented them to Congress...in pre-mass media 1800s! | “[T]he kingdom of God... is to be a POLITICAL INSTITUTION THAT SHALL HOLD SWAY OVER ALL THE EARTH; TO WHICH ALL OTHER GOVERNMENTS WILL BE SUBORDINATE AND BY WHICH THEY WILL BE DOMINATED.” The Rise and Fall of Nauvoo, 1900, p. 180 | |
| Mitt Romney as POTUS??? | Aside from above prophetic impositions, why would Mitt not only honor what these 'prophets' have spoken, but what a future Lds 'prophet' may tell him to do? | The Law of Consecration Oath Mitt Romney has sworn in the Mormon temple (done before marriage/sealing in temple): "You and each of you covenant and promise before God, angels, and these witnesses at this altar, that you do accept the law of consecration as contained in this, the book of Doctrine and Covenants [he displays the book], in that you do consecrate yourselves, your time, talents, and EVERYTHING with which the Lord has blessed you, or WITH which he MAY bless you, to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, for the building up of the kingdom of God on the earth and for the establishment of Zion." Source: What is an LDS Church/Mormon temple marriage/sealing? [Q: Please define 'Zion': The LDS PR Web site (lds.org) defines its primary meaning: "membership in the [LDS] church."] |
As post #12 shows, the Mormon god who reveals "revelations" to the Mormon "prophet" who could treat the Lds POTUS as a "puppet" doesn't eschew Marxism, either. In fact, the last column in the chart in post #12 cites a faithful Mormon author who concedes that Mormon United Orderism (Communism) influenced Soviet communism.
As for Obama's Muslim ties, I highlighted those in April by linking 11 FREEPER threads posted 'tween 2008-2012. Still, what proof is there beyond his catering to Muslims that Obama is one -- other than the "I said so & a few other FREEPERs said so" arguments we get in here all the time?
Indeed, but when you have a nation of voters who are themselves eclectic heretics, you tend -- even on a Web site devoted to God (like this one) -- to get a "who cares?" shrug.
But to reinforce your point:
Similarities between Mormonism and Scientology
* Origins
o Based on entirely unevidenced stories
o Doctrines created and evolved over time, sometimes changing
* Founders
o Known for their extreme desire for wealth
o Known for telling stories and lies
o Convicted and imprisoned for illegal activities
o Died during their trouble with the law
* Legal troubles
o Involved in many illegal activities, in many cases as part of official organization doctrine and practices
o Support destruction of outsiders, especially apostates (blood atonement, shunning, "fair game")
o Legal troubles led to changes in doctrine (at least on the surface, note polygamy and "fair game")
* Teachings
o Pre- and post-mortal existence
o Eternal progression (godhood, clear thetan)
o Only way to know truth is to experience it yourself
o Christianity, Bible only partly true
o Focus on thriving and happiness in present life rather than the afterlife or eternal life
o "Salvation" by works
o Give "milk" instead of "meat"
o Official endorsement of lying about or avoiding discussion of controversial doctrines, especially origin of man and key figures (Heavenly Father, Xenu, spirit children, thetans, etc)
o Levels can be achieved (Operating Thetan levels, temple Mormons, eternal progression, different kingdoms)
o Resistance is dismissed as proof/evidence of validity
* Behavior
o Persecution complex
o Label and treat opposition as evil enemies ("Antis", "Suppressive Persons")
Other Similarities:
1. Pre-existence of humanity:
LDS: All humans pre-existed in the spirit world before being born on earth.
Scientology: People were thetans in past lives + belief in reincarnation.
2. Unlimited potential for humans:
LDS: Heavenly Father (God) is an exalted man and LDS men may become gods with omnipotence and omniscience.
Scientology: People may become thetans again, regaining their freedom from matter, energy, space, and time (MEST).
3. “Salvation” only through their Church:
LDS: Exaltation and godhood only through the LDS Church.
Scientology: Recovering one’s thetanhood only possible through Church of Scientology.
This thread drew over 400 replies:
Similarities between Mormonism and Scientology
L. Ron Hubbard could have easily substituted Kolob for Venus in his religion.
According to Scientology, when a person dies — or, in Scientology terms, when a thetan abandons its physical body — they go to a "landing station" on the planet Venus, where the thetan is re-implanted and told lies about its past life and its next life. The Venusians take the thetan, "capsule" it, and send it back to Earth to be dumped into the ocean off the coast of California. Source: Thetan (Wikipedia)
Seems to me that, per the Mormon myth narrative, when when an earthling is becoming "encapsuled" they leave from a "launching station" on the planet Kolob, where the Mormon spirit is implanted inside a human body, and once born with a Mormon family, the Mormon is told lies about its past life and its next life. The Mormon gods take the Mormon, "capsule" it in that body, and send it to Earth to be dumped at age 8 into the Mormon baptismal founts off of many international coasts. LDS (Mormonism) and Scientology: A Brief Theological Comparison Under one of the differences, I actually see more of a connection...one mentions Mormonism's "exaltation to godhood"...Scientologists a "return to Thetanhood" as its "final goal."
If there is a resemblance between the two founders, presumably it is because Hubbard looked at Joseph Smith and the LDS and decided it would provide him with a very useful model for a successful religion. He gave it an SF twist, because that was what he was good at, and it probably amused him.
Well, Hubbard did have to "twist" any sci-fi that Mormon leaders hadn't already done before him -- just a lot less detail.
For example:
* Lds "prophet" Brigham Young: Who can tell us of the inhabitants of this little planet that shines of an evening, called the moon? ...when you inquire about the inhabitants of that sphere you find that the most learned are as ignorant in regard to them as the most ignorant of their fellows. So it is with regard to the inhabitants of the sun. Do you think it is inhabited? I rather think it is. Do you think there is any life there? No question of it; it was not made in vain.
Source: Journal of Discourses, Vol. 13, p. 271...1870 -- so keep in mind, Young had already been leading the Lds church for about 25 years or so when he made this comment.
Brigham Young's first counselor was "apostle" Heber C. Kimball: "Where did the earth come from? From its parents earths...The earth is alive. If it was not, it could not produce." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 36, 1857)
BTW, where did Brigham Young get his "source" re: the habitation of the moon?
Oliver B. Huntington: Nearly all the great discoveries of men in the last half century have, in one way or another, either directly or indirectly, contributed to prove Joseph Smith to be a prophet. As far back as 1837, I know that he said the moon was inhabited by men and women the same as this earth, and that they lived to a greater age than we do--that they live generally near the age of 1000 years. He described the men as averaging nearly six feet in height, and dressing quite uniformly in something near the Quaker style. In my Patriarchal blessing, given by the father of Joseph the Prophet in Kirtland, 1837, I was told that I should preach the gospel before I was 21 years of age; that I should preach the gospel to the inhabitants upon the islands of the sea, and--to the inhabitants of the moon, even the planet you can not behold with your eyes. The first two promises have been fulfilled, and the latter may be verified. From the verification of the two promises we may reasonably expect the third to be fulfilled also. (Source: Young Woman's Journal, Vol. 3, pp. 263-264, 1892)
The last thing I expected was FREEPERs either to cover up -- or become apologists for -- Romney's socialist healthcare imposition upon Mass citizens!
What freeper would do that?
Way cool, basing your entire view of mormonism on a couple of nice guys next door who were mormons.
How enlightened of you.
ALL: Only when Romney himself became his own political religion -- and began converting former conservatives into Mittbots -- did we begin to see this hyper religio-political vocab enter the pix...
Where even the Mittbots enter the posting picture and use the same language Christians use ("trust Christ")...only now fixated upon their political messiah, Mitt Romney...the man who is here to politically save them and their country!
"Trust Romney" is Mindbender 3:16.
(Yeah, I need to replug in my last tagline)
the inquisition was over 500 years ago. get your head out of the sand and vote for Romney! W’ere voting for a commander-in-chief, not a Pope.
Well, I've had this discussion many a time on various FR threads...where the Q is raised: Are we voting for a 'pastor-in-chief' or commander-in-chief?
There's a few operating Bible-based "principles" that undergird this Q...And it's essentially this:
Principle: This question addresses not only the role and identity of the POTUS, but the perceived 'self' identity of the candidate. If a given candidate thinks he's a 'god' or 'would-be' god, he exposes himself as deceived on one of the most basic elemental identity issues you can think of.
If a candidate doesn't even know who he is fundamentally, how do we know similar distortions won't effect his judgment? Besides, if he inwardly lauds himself as 'divine,' why would we want to reinforce such an idolater who steals glory from the One True God?
Then there's an associated principle to consider here: Is a POTUS a 'minister' of sorts?
Apparently, you might say 'no.'
I say 'yes,' and here's why:
Even non-religious people tend to at times honor the Bible. The Biblical record shows that true successful leadership in public office is done by those who fear the TRUE Lord -- not by some low-level Mormon god who is part of a great number of Mormon gods...
And these Biblical leaders did not -- or were not to -- worship false gods/idols. The Old Testament is replete w/ such examples. The Israelites had secular kings, not "pastors in chief." But that didn't mean that these kings' ministrations were any less a "ministry." Romans 13 makes it clear that public office is also a "ministry." Those who contend against this are openly militating against this Scripture.
It doesn't mean that public officeholders administrate in a parochial way; it just means that public office is a "ministry of service" like the soup kitchen down the street.
History (biblical & otherwise) shows that the more pagan or counterfeit god that a leader adheres to, the more trouble that leader's "exhaust" settles on the people-at-large. Kings & presidents need all the grace, mercy, & guidance possible, since God gets more credit for preserving & directing leaders than we care to give Him credit for. Therefore, one who worships a false god & has no true relationship w/the living God is stifling access to God's resources; & a nation may suffer for that.
Therefore, we must weigh a candidate's level of vulnerability to deception - for that transcends 'religious' considerations: If a candidate is gullible in the most important area of his life -- his faith – this serves as an excellent indicator of potential other gullibilities.
I can’t be overly critical of you here. I have serious problems with romney and those backing him. But i think he is by far the lesser of the two evils.
Obsession.
Meaning if you had any courage, you'd reveal what you believe, and the rest of the Freepers who thought you a heretic would beset you, all in the name of "Education. Shining a light on a dark corner."
But I wonder, after Romney wins, what will someone like you do, besides tear your hair out, render your garments, and bleat like a stuck sheep?
Maybe you should learn something about mormonISM before your defend it.
Why not start a thread in the Religion Forum and ask your questions making sure they revolve around obamahysteria.
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