Posted on 09/09/2012 8:00:06 PM PDT by NorthernCrunchyCon
This work was originally published in Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Vol. 27, No. 3, Fall 1994, pp. 117-194. The paper received considerable notice, and in 1995 the Mormon History Association recognized Joseph Smith and Kabbalah: The Occult Connection with its annual award for the best article in Mormon studies. [snip]
The one thing about which we might all agree concerning Joseph Smith is that he was not the usual sort of person. He did not approach life itself--or his religious commitment--in a usual way. Yet the character of our historical investigation of Joseph Smith and his times has been primarily traditional, unimaginative, and lacking in any effort to find or create an epistemological methodology revolutionary enough to deal with the paradox of our movement. The irony of our position is that many of our methods and interpretations have become so traditional that they can only reinforce the fears of yesterday rather than nurture the seeds of tomorrow's dreams.1
More than two decades have passed since those words were penned, years marked by a veritable explosion in Mormon studies, and yet Edward's challenge "to find or create an epistemological methodology revolutionary enough to deal with the paradox" of Joseph Smith remains a summons largely unanswered. Revolutions are painful processes, in measure both destructive and creative. The imaginative revisioning of Joseph Smith's "unusual approach" to life and religion, demands a careful--though perhaps still difficult and destructive--hewing away of an hundred years of encrusting vilifications and thick layerings of iconographic pigments, masks ultimately false to his lively cast. Smith eschewed orthodoxy, and so eventually must his historians. To that end, there is considerable value in turning full attention to the revolutionary view of Joseph Smith provided by Harold Bloom in his critique of The American Religion.
(Excerpt) Read more at gnosis.org ...
Now, remember Alex that UCANSEE2 knows more about everything than everyone else.
The real question does he know God or just stuff?
Where is "being nice" mentioned in the above?
Reread the quoted context, the very first sentence that you provided. Many stories in the Bible are 'parables', and the reader is left to apply that CONTEXT to their life , and their theology. That was the purpose of including those stories into the Bible. Or do you think that historians included 'office discussions' into the Bible just to bore everyone? If you cannot see the concept being illustrated by the story, I can't help you.
To paraphrase what you told svcw, you have a powerful computer in front of you, with spellchecker and 10,000 online Bibles and dictionaries, and yet you cannot find a valid reference to 'being nice' as a condition of entry into Heaven.
Maybe the problem is that we each have a different definition of what 'being nice' means.
Or perhaps SVCW could just put out there the definition of EXACTLY what it takes to get into heaven. You say 'being nice' isn't it? Granted it's not ALL that is required, but if it's not on the list, show me an example in the Bible that states or implies (as in a parable) so.
Therefore, in order for me to put any further credence into your religious statements, I would require that you do a thorough study of Christianity in contrast to various other religions and mythologies.
Fair enough. You don't have to listen to me at all. I am no theological scholar, but I have done my fair share of studies. I studied the Bible, (USING A COMPUTER), for two years, starting from page ONE and reading through to the end, with parallel windows of five of the different 'versions' of the Bible. The LATIN, and GREEK versions were also supplied as a link reference used when needed. Also contained were multiple 'translations' of various words that changed meaning dependent upon the insertion of vowels. Now.... The Book of Mormon... I don't know that much about. I probably have a smattering of education on various theologies, comparable to (most likely) you and SVCW. So... that is settled.
The BIG issue here is that I remarked on SVCW's spelling and grammar. Well... SVCW could say "I'm typing on my cell phone" or "I'm in a hurry, and don't care" or "English is my second language". Any of those are understandable excuses.
However, the only thing that represents YOU on a written discussion forum is YOUR WORDS. If you expect ME to accept someone as a WELL READ BIBLE EXPERT (and expert on the Book of MORMON), then when their grammar and spelling indicate ignorance, or laziness, I doubt what they write. I have run into some posters who intentionally misspell their words, and I asked one of them why. I got a reasonable answer, so I learned to 'read' through it.
I was hoping SVCW would come 'back' and just tell me why the weird spelling (not the intended one, but the previous ones).
All of this pointless arguing is my fault. I should be more direct.
SVCW, why are you so down on MORMONS (or the MORMON religion)?
Not only that, but many religions (or branches thereof) are selling themselves (and their congregation) to politicians.
This is nothing new. Happened before the Bible was written, while it was being written, after it was written, and happens today.
This ‘free will’ thing has always been a problem.
Hmmmmm... I don't know if they had any connection whatsoever, but the 'other' was Charles and Myrtle Fillmore who established Unity Village in Jackson County. They stated that they believed that the area might have been the original Eden and that Christ would return there. They said they 'felt' an intense 'religious' presence when they first moved to the area (actually, in Independence, Missouri... at first).
I apologize for use of the word 'theology' , as that in not an exact connotation. I.E. Many don't consider UNITY a religion, but as more of a 'school of thought'.
I am not down on mormons, I am down on mormonISM.
Really it is not that complicate.
I get UCA that you really really really want to be the smartest guy in the room, but you know what - you are not.
mormonism is not Christianity, no matter how many words you use, no matter how flowery your words are - mormonism is blasphemy against the Word of God Almighty.
For your reasons and your reasons alone, have decided it appears, to make the argument that “well if we are just ever so nice”.
Nice does not get you to the eternal dwelling of God Almighty, it is just the way it is, if you don’t like it take it up with God.
(you forgot to put ALEX into your TO: box, but your spelling is better)
Thank you. I resemble that remark, but only in a fuzzy and forgiving way. Probably like an extremely high-functioning retard.
The real question does he know God or just stuff?
The answer to that is probably the most uninteresting thing in the world anyone except me.
I apologize for attacking you on your spelling and grammar. I was trying to get an explanation for it, and for what gave you the basis for absolute statements about the Mormons. Were you one? Are you one? Do you reject them as a religion? Why?
I was trying to provoke some positive communication and learning and I did it wrong.
My true blue intention was to find out WHY you thought 'this or that' was DEAD WRONG.
I still am curious.
NOT mormons - mormonISM
If you actually asked a question, it would be waaaaaaaaaaaay easier to answer it.
Currently all you are doing is making statements and then answer these statements (which really makes no sense).
You know what it's really ok, you do what you need to do (whatever that is) and I will do what I need to do as well - expose mormonISM.
Ta da, and good luck, with your "ever so nice" quest.
Either way, if “religion” is in the url on Free Republic, it’s the Religion Forum.
I am not down on mormons, I am down on mormonISM. Really it is not that complicate.
Are you down on their teachings, or their origins, or their current practice?
I get UCA that you really really really want to be the smartest guy in the room, but you know what - you are not.
Well... I am in this room. On FR, that's another matter. Why do you think I was asking you questions about Mormons, or your beliefs?
mormonism is not Christianity, no matter how many words you use, no matter how flowery your words are -
I don't remember stating that, so there is no need to debate it.
mormonism is blasphemy against the Word of God Almighty.
If one is a Christian, then that is true.
For your reasons and your reasons alone, have decided it appears, to make the argument that “well if we are just ever so nice”.
: ) Everything that I type onto FR is done for my reasons, and my reasons alone, and based on my choice. The same is true of you, is it not? If you are going to continue with those kind of insults, I might just consider buying you dinner.
Nice does not get you to the eternal dwelling of God Almighty,
AH.... we finally get to the point. Which has been the reason for my curiosity I do want to know what you think, and why, because your belief is different than mine. I already know what I think, so only by asking someone who thinks different can I possibly learn anything new.
So... what does get you to the eternal dwelling of God Almighty?
And why isn't 'being nice' on the list? (please supply your definition of being nice).
it is just the way it is,
Didn't Dan Rather used to say that?
if you don’t like it take it up with God.
Now isn't that silly? God doesn't have a FR account, so I'd never get a response. That leaves me with you. You have been answering some questions, and I respect your answers.
I just wondered what exactly you thought got one into heaven.
No more than apes become humans.
“For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.” Romans 3:23
“God demonstrates His own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” Romans 5:8
“He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of His mercy.” Titus 3:5
“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast.” Ephesians 2:8-9
“For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Jesus Christ our Lord.” Romans 6:23
“If you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.” Romans 10:9-10
“For God so loved the world that He gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish, but have eternal life.” John 3:16
Commitment involves:
I acknowledge I am a sinner in need of a Savior - this is to repent or turn away from sin
I believe in my heart that God raised Jesus from the dead - this is to trust that Jesus paid the full penalty for my sins
I confess Jesus as my Lord and my God - this is to surrender control of my life to Jesus
I receive Jesus as my Savior forever - this is to accept that God has done for me and in me what He promised.
A simple prayer:
“Lord Jesus, I know that I am a sinner and I do not deserve eternal life. But, I believe You died and rose from the grave to make me a new creation and to prepare me to dwell in your presence forever. Jesus, come into my life, take control of my life, forgive my sins and save me. I am now placing my trust in You alone for my salvation and I accept your free gift of eternal life.”
Which was my reason for supporting a Mormon as the choice for a Presidential Candidate (but only after I watched him during the RNC while he was not speaking).
I just don't know how the people who are Mormons got from this 'history' that was so hokey and contrived to such healthy and religiously devoted people. Maybe it's the discipline.
If their 'god' and 'prophet' is so wrong, why do most people think that Mormons are such fine and decent people? Is it more important how they started, or how they end up?
Thank you.
Thank you. That is one of the nicest, and well-composed responses to that question I have ever read here on FR.
I would suggest that most people have had the same kind of epiphany with various religions. AND it's not the religion, per se, but the people running it, and the direction they take it.
But, once again, it's a very old story. Revelations, the Seven Churches.
You do understand that the words in ITALICS are YOUR WORDS from YOUR COMMENT, that are listed so that you know what I am responding to.... don't you?
So...did you work under Jim ?
What if the concept is right but the label is wrong?
Maybe 'a god' is the wrong 'interpretation'. Maybe 'heaven' is when each human spirit(soul) is sent to become the 'seed of life' for a planet ? If God is the Universe, then each 'soul' (all human souls having been removed from Earth) as a living planet would be 'in heaven'. I would find that much more preferable than to the idea of sitting around with the angels and doing nothing .... forever. God created us and gave us the ability to create. I'd hate to see that go to waste for infinity.
this is the most basic problem with “evolution”.
I think one of the problems is that no two people seem to agree on what evolution even means.
Humans OTOH, like all of us, including me, are sinners, deceived by the Wicked One.
I can agree if we accept that:
Animals can't sin.
Nature can't sin.
That leaves just us. Obviously , the Wicked One is 'within' us. It is nowhere else that we can find. We are deceived, only by ourselves.
They do understand some Bible prophecy but run afoul with BI.
Sorry, I don't get the last abbreviation (BI).
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