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11 Reasons the Authority of Christianity Is Centered on St. Peter and Rome
stpeterslist ^ | December 19, 2012

Posted on 01/06/2013 3:56:49 PM PST by NYer

Bl. John Henry Newman said it best: “To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant.” History paints an overwhelming picture of St. Peter’s apostolic ministry in Rome and this is confirmed by a multitude of different sources within the Early Church. Catholic Encyclopedia states, “In opposition to this distinct and unanimous testimony of early Christendom, some few Protestant historians have attempted in recent times to set aside the residence and death of Peter at Rome as legendary. These attempts have resulted in complete failure.” Protestantism as a whole seeks to divorce Christianity from history by rending Gospel message out of its historical context as captured by our Early Church Fathers. One such target of these heresies is to devalue St. Peter and to twist the authority of Rome into a historical mishap within Christianity. To wit, the belief has as its end the ultimate end of all Catholic and Protestant dialogue – who has authority in Christianity?

 

Why is it important to defend the tradition of St. Peter and Rome?
The importance of establishing St. Peter’s ministry in Rome may be boiled down to authority and more specifically the historic existence and continuance of the Office of Vicar held by St. Peter. To understand why St. Peter was important and what authority was given to him by Christ SPL has composed two lists – 10 Biblical Reasons Christ Founded the Papacy and 13 Reasons St. Peter Was the Prince of the Apostles.

The rest of the list is cited from the Catholic Encyclopedia on St. Peter and represents only a small fraction of the evidence set therein.

 

The Apostolic Primacy of St. Peter and Rome

It is an indisputably established historical fact that St. Peter laboured in Rome during the last portion of his life, and there ended his earthly course by martyrdom. As to the duration of his Apostolic activity in the Roman capital, the continuity or otherwise of his residence there, the details and success of his labours, and the chronology of his arrival and death, all these questions are uncertain, and can be solved only on hypotheses more or less well-founded. The essential fact is that Peter died at Rome: this constitutes the historical foundation of the claim of the Bishops of Rome to the Apostolic Primacy of Peter.

St. Peter’s residence and death in Rome are established beyond contention as historical facts by a series of distinct testimonies extending from the end of the first to the end of the second centuries, and issuing from several lands.

 

1. The Gospel of St. John

That the manner, and therefore the place of his death, must have been known in widely extended Christian circles at the end of the first century is clear from the remark introduced into the Gospel of St. John concerning Christ’s prophecy that Peter was bound to Him and would be led whither he would not — “And this he said, signifying by what death he should glorify God” (John 21:18-19, see above). Such a remark presupposes in the readers of the Fourth Gospel a knowledge of the death of Peter.

 

2. Salutations, from Babylon

St. Peter’s First Epistle was written almost undoubtedly from Rome, since the salutation at the end reads: “The church that is in Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you: and so doth my son Mark” (5:13). Babylon must here be identified with the Roman capital; since Babylon on the Euphrates, which lay in ruins, or New Babylon (Seleucia) on the Tigris, or the Egyptian Babylon near Memphis, or Jerusalem cannot be meant, the reference must be to Rome, the only city which is called Babylon elsewhere in ancient Christian literature (Revelation 17:5; 18:10; “Oracula Sibyl.”, V, verses 143 and 159, ed. Geffcken, Leipzig, 1902, 111).

 

3. Gospel of St. Mark

From Bishop Papias of Hierapolis and Clement of Alexandria, who both appeal to the testimony of the old presbyters (i.e., the disciples of the Apostles), we learn that Mark wrote his Gospel in Rome at the request of the Roman Christians, who desired a written memorial of the doctrine preached to them by St. Peter and his disciples (Eusebius, Church History II.15, 3.40, 6.14); this is confirmed by Irenaeus (Against Heresies 3.1). In connection with this information concerning the Gospel of St. Mark, Eusebius, relying perhaps on an earlier source, says that Peter described Rome figuratively as Babylon in his First Epistle.

 

4. Testimony of Pope St. Clement I

Another testimony concerning the martyrdom of Peter and Paul is supplied by Clement of Rome in his Epistle to the Corinthians (written about A.D. 95-97), wherein he says (chapter 5):

“Through zeal and cunning the greatest and most righteous supports [of the Church] have suffered persecution and been warred to death. Let us place before our eyes the good Apostles — St. Peter, who in consequence of unjust zeal, suffered not one or two, but numerous miseries, and, having thus given testimony (martyresas), has entered the merited place of glory”.

He then mentions Paul and a number of elect, who were assembled with the others and suffered martyrdom “among us” (en hemin, i.e., among the Romans, the meaning that the expression also bears in chapter 4). He is speaking undoubtedly, as the whole passage proves, of the Neronian persecution, and thus refers the martyrdom of Peter and Paul to that epoch.

 

5. Testimony of St. Ignatius of Antioch

In his letter written at the beginning of the second century (before 117), while being brought to Rome for martyrdom, the venerable Bishop Ignatius of Antioch endeavours by every means to restrain the Roman Christians from striving for his pardon, remarking: “I issue you no commands, like Peter and Paul: they were Apostles, while I am but a captive” (Epistle to the Romans 4). The meaning of this remark must be that the two Apostles laboured personally in Rome, and with Apostolic authority preached the Gospel there.

 

6. Taught in the Same Place in Italy

Bishop Dionysius of Corinth, in his letter to the Roman Church in the time of Pope Soter (165-74), says:

“You have therefore by your urgent exhortation bound close together the sowing of Peter and Paul at Rome and Corinth. For both planted the seed of the Gospel also in Corinth, and together instructed us, just as they likewise taught in the same place in Italy and at the same time suffered martyrdom” (in Eusebius, Church History II.25).

 

 

7. Rome: Founded by Sts. Peter and Paul

Irenaeus of Lyons, a native of Asia Minor and a disciple of Polycarp of Smyrna (a disciple of St. John), passed a considerable time in Rome shortly after the middle of the second century, and then proceeded to Lyons, where he became bishop in 177; he described the Roman Church as the most prominent and chief preserver of the Apostolic tradition, as “the greatest and most ancient church, known by all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious Apostles, Peter and Paul” (Against Heresies 3.3; cf. 3.1). He thus makes use of the universally known and recognized fact of the Apostolic activity of Peter and Paul in Rome, to find therein a proof from tradition against the heretics.

 

8. St. Peter Announced the Word of God in Rome

In his “Hypotyposes” (Eusebius, Church History IV.14), Clement of Alexandria, teacher in the catechetical school of that city from about 190, says on the strength of the tradition of the presbyters: “After Peter had announced the Word of God in Rome and preached the Gospel in the spirit of God, the multitude of hearers requested Mark, who had long accompanied Peter on all his journeys, to write down what the Apostles had preached to them” (see above).

 

9. Rome: Where Authority is Ever Within Reach

Like Irenaeus, Tertullian appeals, in his writings against heretics, to the proof afforded by the Apostolic labours of Peter and Paul in Rome of the truth of ecclesiastical tradition. In De Præscriptione 36, he says:

“If thou art near Italy, thou hast Rome where authority is ever within reach. How fortunate is this Church for which the Apostles have poured out their whole teaching with their blood, where Peter has emulated the Passion of the Lord, where Paul was crowned with the death of John.”

In Scorpiace 15, he also speaks of Peter’s crucifixion. “The budding faith Nero first made bloody in Rome. There Peter was girded by another, since he was bound to the cross”. As an illustration that it was immaterial with what water baptism is administered, he states in his book (On Baptism 5) that there is “no difference between that with which John baptized in the Jordan and that with which Peter baptized in the Tiber”; and against Marcion he appeals to the testimony of the Roman Christians, “to whom Peter and Paul have bequeathed the Gospel sealed with their blood” (Against Marcion 4.5).

 

10. Come to the Vatican and See for Yourself

The Roman, Caius, who lived in Rome in the time of Pope Zephyrinus (198-217), wrote in his “Dialogue with Proclus” (in Eusebius, Church History II.25) directed against the Montanists: “But I can show the trophies of the Apostles. If you care to go to the Vatican or to the road to Ostia, thou shalt find the trophies of those who have founded this Church”.

By the trophies (tropaia) Eusebius understands the graves of the Apostles, but his view is opposed by modern investigators who believe that the place of execution is meant. For our purpose it is immaterial which opinion is correct, as the testimony retains its full value in either case. At any rate the place of execution and burial of both were close together; St. Peter, who was executed on the Vatican, received also his burial there. Eusebius also refers to “the inscription of the names of Peter and Paul, which have been preserved to the present day on the burial-places there” (i.e. at Rome).

 

11. Ancient Epigraphic Memorial

There thus existed in Rome an ancient epigraphic memorial commemorating the death of the Apostles. The obscure notice in the Muratorian Fragment (“Lucas optime theofile conprindit quia sub praesentia eius singula gerebantur sicuti et semote passionem petri evidenter declarat”, ed. Preuschen, Tübingen, 1910, p. 29) also presupposes an ancient definite tradition concerning Peter’s death in Rome.

The apocryphal Acts of St. Peter and the Acts of Sts. Peter and Paul likewise belong to the series of testimonies of the death of the two Apostles in Rome.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History
KEYWORDS: churchhistory
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To: metmom
You’re priceless.....

Clueless is the correct word

2,201 posted on 01/18/2013 10:14:20 PM PST by terycarl
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To: Elsie; Syncro; metmom; boatbums; caww; presently no screen name; smvoice; HarleyD; ...


First some said they would not read links that reprove Rome, and now it is posts. Well, Rome once generally forbid laity from engaging in public debates on questions of dogmatic or moral theology:

“We furthermore forbid any lay person to engage in dispute, either private or public, concerning the Catholic Faith. Whosoever shall act contrary to this decree, let him be bound in the fetters of excommunication. — Pope Alexander IV (1254-1261) in “Sextus Decretalium”, and still in force at the time when the the (my source) Catholic Encyclopedia was written, which adds, “This law, like all penal laws, must be very narrowly construed. The terms Catholic Faith and dispute have a technical signification. The former term refers to questions purely theological; the latter to disputations more or less formal, and engrossing the attention of the public. But when there is a question of dogmatic or moral theology, every intelligent layman will concede the propriety of leaving the exposition and defence of it to the clergy.” [who themselves needed due authorization]. - www.newadvent.org/cathen/05034a.htm

Quinisext Ecumenical Council, Canon 64: That a layman must not publicly make a speech or teach, thus investing himself with the dignity of a teacher, but, instead, must submit to the ordinance handed down by the Lord, and to open his ear wide to them who have received the grace of teaching ability, and to be taught by them the divine facts thoroughly.

"Do not converse with heretics even for the sake of defending the faith, for fear lest their words instil their poison in your mind". Bl. Isaias Boner of Krakow (Polish, Augustinian priest, theologian, professor of Scripture, d. 1471)

For back in the "good ol days" Rome could deal with theological nonconformists (lapsed Catholics at least) by bodily compulsion,

St. Thomas Aquinas (13th century). "On the other hand, there are unbelievers who at some time have accepted the faith, and professed it, such as heretics and all apostates: such should be submitted even to bodily compulsion, that they may fulfil what they have promised, and hold what they, at one time, received". — Living Tradition, Organ of the Roman Theological Forum, http://www.rtforum.org/lt/lt119.html

Innocent’s Bull Ad Extirpanda prescribes that captured heretics, being "murderers of souls as well as robbers of God’s sacraments and of the Christian faith, . . . are to be coerced – as are thieves and bandits – into confessing their errors and accusing others, although one must stop short of danger to life or limb." — Bull Ad Extirpanda (Bullarium Romanorum Pontificum, vol. 3 [Turin: Franco, Fory & Dalmazzo, 1858], Lex 25, p. 556a.)

The bull conceded to the State a portion of the property to be confiscated from convicted heretics. The State in return assumed the burden of carrying out the penalty.

We excommunicate and anathematize every heresy that raises against the holy, orthodox and Catholic faith ... Those condemned, being handed over to the secular rulers of their bailiffs, let them be abandoned, to be punished with due justice, clerics being first degraded from their orders. As to the property of the condemned, if they are laymen, let it be confiscated; if clerics, let it be applied to the churches from which they received revenues...

Secular authorities, whatever office they may hold, shall be admonished and induced and if necessary compelled by ecclesiastical censure, that as they wish to be esteemed and numbered among the faithful, so for the defense of the faith they ought publicly to take an oath that they will strive in good faith and to the best of their ability to exterminate in the territories subject to their jurisdiction all heretics pointed out by the Church; so that whenever anyone shall have assumed authority, whether spiritual or temporal, let him be bound to confirm this decree by oath.

But if a temporal ruler, after having been requested and admonished by the Church, should neglect to cleanse his territory of this heretical foulness, let him be excommunicated by the metropolitan and the other bishops of the province. If he refuses to make satisfaction within a year, let the matter be made known to the supreme pontiff, that he may declare the ruler's vassals absolved from their allegiance and may offer the territory to be ruled by lay Catholics, who on the extermination of the heretics may possess it without hindrance and preserve it in the purity of faith; the right, however, of the chief ruler is to be respected as long as he offers no obstacle in this matter and permits freedom of action.

The same law is to be observed in regard to those who have no chief rulers (that is, are independent). Catholics who have girded themselves with the cross for the extermination of the heretics, shall enjoy the indulgences and privileges granted to those who go in defense of the Holy Land. (Canons of the Ecumenical Fourth Lateran Council, 1215, http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/lateran4.asp)

Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, 1302: Certainly the one who denies that the temporal sword is in the power of Peter has not listened well to the word of the Lord commanding: 'Put up thy sword into thy scabbard' [Mt 26:52].

Pope Pius IX, The Syllabus (of Errors): “[It is error to believe that] The Church ought to be separated from the State, and the State from the Church.” Pope Pius IX, The Syllabus Issued in 1864, Section VI, Errors About Civil Society, Considered Both in Itself and in its Relation to the Church, #55. http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/P9SYLL.HTM

[It is error to believe that] Hence it has been wisely decided by law, in some Catholic countries, that persons coming to reside therein shall enjoy the public exercise of their own peculiar worship.” Section X, Errors Having Reference to Modern Liberalism, #78;

2,202 posted on 01/18/2013 10:19:52 PM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: terycarl
Reading the mind of another Freeper is a form of "making it personal."

Discuss the issues all you want, but do NOT make it personal.

2,203 posted on 01/18/2013 10:19:52 PM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: presently no screen name
God's Word is His Will. He used Moses, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and PAUL. So I say thanks to the Jews as they did HIS will as they heard and obey Him. That's what made them useable

100% correct...God used all these people to advance His agenda, and to bring the word to the modern world, He chose the Catholic Church....

2,204 posted on 01/18/2013 10:20:12 PM PST by terycarl
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To: SteelTrap
Recently I found out “my” Bible is different that “your” Bible.

Was your Bible handed out at Pentecost?

If not, who determined what books belonged in your collection of books, that you call the Bible?

Was this authority fallible or infallible?

2,205 posted on 01/18/2013 10:22:36 PM PST by St_Thomas_Aquinas
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To: Religion Moderator
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal

sorry, didn't mean to........wonder when I did??

2,206 posted on 01/18/2013 10:23:40 PM PST by terycarl
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To: CynicalBear
>>none has ever erred in a matter of faith and morals<< Who told you that?

history

2,207 posted on 01/18/2013 10:27:06 PM PST by terycarl
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas

Waiting for a catholic view of a non-antagonistic answer to an honest question.


2,208 posted on 01/18/2013 10:27:18 PM PST by SteelTrap
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas

Are non catholics going to hell? Are protestants evil?


2,209 posted on 01/18/2013 10:30:24 PM PST by SteelTrap
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To: Natural Law
Nothing should be accepted from Popes that engaged in those despicable actions.

Especially concerning morals!

They are corrupt to the bottoms of their hearts.

A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.--Luke 6:45

But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.--Matthew 15:18

You brood of snakes! How could evil men like you speak what is good and right? For whatever is in your heart determines what you say.--Matthew 12:34

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?--Jeremiah 17:9

Those men should have NEVER spoken for God, or been allowed to continue on as "vicars" of Christ.

But *sigh* Catholic Tradition trudged along with dregs of the earth as leaders.

2,210 posted on 01/18/2013 10:30:48 PM PST by Syncro ("So?" - -Andrew Breitbart --The King of All Media RIP Feb 1, 1969 – Mar 1, 2012)
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To: Syncro
I'm sure there is a trick definition of "faith and moral" that makes all of that OK.

you really can't discern between personal behavior and teaching from the chair of Peter????? pathetic....

2,211 posted on 01/18/2013 10:33:23 PM PST by terycarl
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To: terycarl
you mentioned a few bad people in the oldest organization in the history of the world.....you mentioned no errors on the part of the church in matters of faith or morals

Oh yes I did.

2,212 posted on 01/18/2013 10:38:28 PM PST by Syncro ("So?" - -Andrew Breitbart --The King of All Media RIP Feb 1, 1969 – Mar 1, 2012)
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas
"...and if he won't listen to the church, treat him as a pagan or tax collector." --Jesus

Excellent!

The church is the body of believers. The body of Christ. Made up of all born again saved Christians.

It is NOT the Catholic church being noted in that scripture.

2,213 posted on 01/18/2013 10:43:56 PM PST by Syncro ("So?" - -Andrew Breitbart --The King of All Media RIP Feb 1, 1969 – Mar 1, 2012)
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To: terycarl
100% correct...God used all these people to advance His agenda, and to bring the word to the modern world, He chose the Catholic Church....

I thought Christ had something to do with it.
2,214 posted on 01/18/2013 10:51:50 PM PST by bramps (Sarah Palin got more votes in 2008 than Mitt Romney got in 2012)
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To: terycarl

I'm sure there is a trick definition of "faith and moral" that makes all of that OK.

you really can't discern between personal behavior and teaching from the chair of Peter????? pathetic....

 

Well by golly I was right!

What's in a mans heart is what comes out of his mouth.

Popes with such black and corrupt hearts should NEVER be allowed to represent a Church.

As they are accepted as Holy Sees no matter their personal lives, that is what is pathetic!

Christian churches would NEVER let someone that corrupt...murderers, adulters, etc etc...speak for their churches.

Read this, posted a few minutes ago but possibly not read by you:

Nothing should be accepted from Popes that engaged in those despicable actions.

Especially concerning morals!

They are corrupt to the bottoms of their hearts.

A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.--Luke 6:45

But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.--Matthew 15:18

You brood of snakes! How could evil men like you speak what is good and right? For whatever is in your heart determines what you say.--Matthew 12:34

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?--Jeremiah 17:9

Those men should have NEVER spoken for God, or been allowed to continue on as "vicars" of Christ.

But *sigh* Catholic Tradition trudged along with dregs of the earth as leaders.

2,210posted on Friday, January 18, 2013 10:30:48 PMby Syncro

 

2,215 posted on 01/18/2013 10:57:54 PM PST by Syncro ("So?" - -Andrew Breitbart --The King of All Media RIP Feb 1, 1969 – Mar 1, 2012)
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To: metmom; terycarl
God doesn't need the Catholic church. Jesus promised us the Holy Spirit to do that job.

Can we at least clarify something here? When you, Terycarl, use the word "Catholic church" do you mean the Roman Catholic Church as it exists today?

The reason I ask, is that is the impression I am getting from your numerous posts. It appears that you believe the Roman Catholic Church is the same church as the one God began at Pentecost by the giving of the Holy Spirit to all those who received Jesus Christ and believed in and followed him. The word "catholic", however, was NOT a word used by the Apostles nor does it appear anywhere in Scripture. It really was a word that had been in use for some time by many Greek philosophers which simply meant "universal". It gradually was used to mean the universal faith of Christians who belonged to a universal church, of the Body of Christ of ALL believers.

If you want to imply that the Roman Catholic Church of today - or from the fourth century to today - is the SAME one as first began at Pentecost, then you are provably incorrect. I CAN agree, though, that the universal church of all believers in Jesus Christ, that existed at the start, and which God alone is able to separate the wheat from the chaff, can be referred to as "catholic" in its adjective form, but I do not agree that it has always been the same and only church that is called the Roman Catholic Church today. There are too many differences and too much history to pretend they are one and the same.

I suspect, however, that this is really NOT an issue of mere semantics. I know many people that strongly insist that the Roman Catholic Church IS the same church that has existed for two thousand years. Maybe you could clarify this point for me. Thank you.

2,216 posted on 01/18/2013 11:33:32 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: Natural Law; SteelTrap
ST:"If they are apostate and servants of satan?

NL:"By their fruit you will recognize them."- Matthew 7:16

Our point exactly. The fruit of the clergy in the Catholic church has been rotten for centuries.

You just answered the question of who they're working for.

Now, what are the ramifications of the Catholic hierarchy being apostates?

2,217 posted on 01/19/2013 2:34:21 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas
Matthew 18:15-20 15 “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

18 Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 19 Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.”

The church, which Greek word means *assembly*, is simply the local body of believers as it is believers which make up the body. Jesus said where ever 2-3 are gathered together, He is there in the midst, IOW, there is church.

There is absolutely no indication that it needs to go to some governing authority.

The true church is an organism, not an organization. 1 Corinthians 12.

2,218 posted on 01/19/2013 2:42:15 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: terycarl

I’ve got the Word of God on my side.

Catholics have word of mouth.


2,219 posted on 01/19/2013 2:45:04 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: terycarl

Excuses, excuses....

When it’s Protestants with differences, it’s evidence of their wrong interpretation of Scripture, that they’re not the *true* church, whatever, but when it’s Catholics, oh well, what’s a difference of opinion among brothers?

There’s a word for that kind of behavior.

It’s called *hypocrisy*.


2,220 posted on 01/19/2013 2:48:06 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: daniel1212
“We furthermore forbid any lay person to engage in dispute, either private or public, concerning the Catholic Faith. Whosoever shall act contrary to this decree, let him be bound in the fetters of excommunication. — Pope Alexander IV (1254-1261) in “Sextus Decretalium”,

Yup. The RCC knows that if their parishioners debate with non-Catholics, they'll risk hearing the truth.

Can't have that happening. They'll end up leaving the church and cut into the financial base.

2,221 posted on 01/19/2013 2:51:25 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: terycarl; presently no screen name
God used all these people to advance His agenda,

His *agenda*????

Really????

Just when you think you've heard it all....

2,222 posted on 01/19/2013 2:53:19 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas; SteelTrap; boatbums
If not, who determined what books belonged in your collection of books, that you call the Bible?

The Holy Spirit directed men in the writing of the Bible.

What was recognized as Scripture was recognized as such before the RCC came into existence. The most the Catholic church can maybe take credit for is compiling it and giving it its stamp of approval, which is really meaningless. Anyone could have compiled it.

And lots of people give the Bible their stamp of approval. Even cults like Mormonism pay lip service to Scripture so what they say is meaningless.

Nobody but Catholics thinks that the Catholic church's opinion on anything is significant.

Was this authority fallible or infallible?

Well, the Holy Spirit who breathed out the Scripture was infallible. The Catholic church which gave it its stamp of approval has proved itself to be more than fallible on more occasions than Catholics care to admit.

2,223 posted on 01/19/2013 3:00:04 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: SteelTrap
Are non catholics going to hell?

That's what official Catholic teaching says.....

This is from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, copied and pasted from the official Vatican website.

This is what Catholics appeal to and go by over Scripture.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

And some examples of papal pronouncements reiterated repeatedly over the years.

Here's the link and just SOME of the quotes from the popes.

Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_Ecclesiam_nulla_salus

Fourth Lateran Council (1215): "There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved."

Pope Boniface VIII, Bull Unam sanctam (1302): "We are compelled in virtue of our faith to believe and maintain that there is only one holy Catholic Church, and that one is apostolic. This we firmly believe and profess without qualification. Outside this Church there is no salvation and no remission of sins, the Spouse in the Canticle proclaiming: 'One is my dove, my perfect one. One is she of her mother, the chosen of her that bore her' (Canticle of Canticles 6:8); which represents the one mystical body whose head is Christ, of Christ indeed, as God. And in this, 'one Lord, one faith, one baptism' (Ephesians 4:5). Certainly Noah had one ark at the time of the flood, prefiguring one Church which perfect to one cubit having one ruler and guide, namely Noah, outside of which we read all living things were destroyed… We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff."

Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino (1441): "The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the "eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41), unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church."

And there are lots more at the link.

A merciful God does not leave us hanging, wondering if we're saved and if we did enough good works, and with an on again/ off again salvation depending on whether or not we sinned after going to confession.

That's not mercy, that's a taskmaster.

Are protestants evil?

According to some Catholic opinion, Protestantism needs to be eradicated.

2,224 posted on 01/19/2013 3:10:02 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: terycarl; Syncro
you really can't discern between personal behavior and teaching from the chair of Peter????? pathetic....

There is no distinction. God doesn't allow for it even if the Catholic church does.

Jesus certainly didn't put up with it.

Matthew 23:1-12 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, 2 “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat, 3 so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice. 4 They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger. 5 They do all their deeds to be seen by others. For they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long, 6 and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues 7 and greetings in the marketplaces and being called rabbi by others.

8 But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. 10 Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ. 11 The greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Titus 1:5-16 5 This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might put what remained into order, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you— 6 if anyone is above reproach, the husband of one wife, and his children are believers and not open to the charge of debauchery or insubordination.

7 For an overseer, as God's steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain, 8 but hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined. 9 He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.

10 For there are many who are insubordinate, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision party. 11 They must be silenced, since they are upsetting whole families by teaching for shameful gain what they ought not to teach. 12 One of the Cretans, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” 13 This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, 14 not devoting themselves to Jewish myths and the commands of people who turn away from the truth. 15 To the pure, all things are pure, but to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled. 16 They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.

1 Corinthians 5:1-13 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father's wife. 2 And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.

3 For though absent in body, I am present in spirit; and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did such a thing. 4 When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

6 Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? 7 Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8 Let us therefore celebrate the festival, not with the old leaven, the leaven of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? 13 God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”

2,225 posted on 01/19/2013 3:23:12 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: metmom
You’re priceless.....

That's very similar to worthless...

2,226 posted on 01/19/2013 3:27:54 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: terycarl
wow...other than the last statement, which I don't think he made, all are absolutely correct, and if he shut up, you'd never learn the truth.




"Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!"

2,227 posted on 01/19/2013 3:32:17 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Syncro

Interesting. When non-Catholic clergy or ministers get caught in immorality, they are absolutely castigated for it. Think Jim Bakker.

And recently another Catholic was absolutely shredding Martin Luther for being so immoral as to get married.

But when the inexcusably heinous and reprehensible conduct of high level Catholic clergy through the ages is addressed, well, nobody is perfect and we have to separate the man from his office.

Sounds a lot like the excuses liberals used for Bill Clinton, doesn’t it?

A man who does not have the moral integrity to control his own lust and behavior has no business being in any position of authority over others, especially in matters of faith and MORALS.

But I still don’t doubt it will be lost on Catholics. They’ve been too indoctrinated to see it objectively.


2,228 posted on 01/19/2013 3:33:32 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: terycarl
I have heard protestants say, and actually do, that remarriage after divorce was perfectly OK...

I wonder just where them Protestants came up with THAT idea???


Matthew 19:9
“And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

2,229 posted on 01/19/2013 3:35:49 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Religion Moderator
Yes and for a long time. I’ve been an FR Religion Moderator for seven years.

Oh, you poor, poor man(?)!


I think I have read your book though:

2,230 posted on 01/19/2013 3:39:39 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: terycarl
if you duplicate your post, you are wasteing time...

Amazingly; FR history shows that this admonition was NEVER given to cereal boy!

2,231 posted on 01/19/2013 3:40:51 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Natural Law
Please don't presume to tell me what I do and do not understand.

Ok then.

You, however, may continue to tell US what we do or don't.

Carry on.

2,232 posted on 01/19/2013 3:41:55 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: CynicalBear
Who told you that?

Uh...

...the fellow who starts and stops the merry-go-round?

It's a ride for kids where you go round and around and around and around...

...in a circle; doncha know.

2,233 posted on 01/19/2013 3:43:36 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

Don’t forget about *annulment*, aka Catholic church sanctioned divorce.

They’ll even grant it to couples who’ve had a number of children.

They seem to not realize what makes a marriage in God’s eyes.


2,234 posted on 01/19/2013 3:43:49 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: Natural Law
When you perceive that they do it is your interpretation or perception of one or both that is in error.

Why did you leave out the THIRD possibly?

That Sacred Tradition ain't so SACRED after all...


That's EXACTLY like MORMONism claiming the rituals that THEY do in their Temples are sacred.

They cannot be found in ANY of their 'scripture' either.

2,235 posted on 01/19/2013 3:45:56 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: daniel1212; Elsie; Syncro; metmom; boatbums; caww; presently no screen name; smvoice
Well, Rome once generally forbid laity from engaging in public debates on questions of dogmatic or moral theology

It depends on how far back you go. I was read St. John Chrysostom the other day and he welcomed people reading the scripture and engaging in discussions. About 600 years later they didn't want anyone questioning their decisions.

2,236 posted on 01/19/2013 4:12:00 AM PST by HarleyD
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To: Syncro
The church is the body of believers.

If my brother won't listen to the Seventh Day Adventists, should I treat him as a pagan or tax collector?

If my brother won't listen to the Presbyterians, should I treat him as a pagan or tax collector?

If my brother won't listen to the Baptists, should I treat him as a pagan or tax collector?

If my brother won't listen to the Lutherans, should I treat him as a pagan or tax collector?

If my brother won't listen to the Fundamentalists, should I treat him as a pagan or tax collector?

Are any of these "the church" that Christ founded? If not, why should I listen to them?

Not only do these churches contradict each other, they have all contradicted themselves over time. Only the Catholic Church possesses a non-contradictory body of Teaching, and the Authority given by Christ to teach authoritatively.

2,237 posted on 01/19/2013 4:14:05 AM PST by St_Thomas_Aquinas
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To: SteelTrap
If the pope must confess to a jesuit (the black pope) who does the black pope confess to?

The fella on the OTHER side of the merry-go-round.

2,238 posted on 01/19/2013 4:16:18 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: terycarl
don't go there because the number of "troublesome" Protestant ministers, school teachers, scout leaders et al...greatly outnumber the number of Catholic clergy...not even close, all catagories....

And NONE of them 'lead' the biggest church in the world.



Pope Stephen VI (896–897), who had his predecessor Pope Formosus exhumed, tried, de-fingered, briefly reburied, and thrown in the Tiber.[1]

Pope John XII (955–964), who gave land to a mistress, murdered several people, and was killed by a man who caught him in bed with his wife.

Pope Benedict IX (1032–1044, 1045, 1047–1048), who "sold" the Papacy

Pope Boniface VIII (1294–1303), who is lampooned in Dante's Divine Comedy

Pope Urban VI (1378–1389), who complained that he did not hear enough screaming when Cardinals who had conspired against him were tortured.[2]

Pope Alexander VI (1492–1503), a Borgia, who was guilty of nepotism and whose unattended corpse swelled until it could barely fit in a coffin.[3]

Pope Leo X (1513–1521), a spendthrift member of the Medici family who once spent 1/7 of his predecessors' reserves on a single ceremony[4]

Pope Clement VII (1523–1534), also a Medici, whose power-politicking with France, Spain, and Germany got Rome sacked.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bad_Popes

2,239 posted on 01/19/2013 4:18:00 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas
The Church doesn't teach that popes aren't impeccable, but infallible when they invoke their authority in teaching regarding faith and morals.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TM-G0bkl8MQ

2,240 posted on 01/19/2013 4:19:30 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: terycarl
you were raised in a Christian home, by Christian parents who learned Christianity from a pastor or priest or whatever...

There you go again: being wrong.

2,241 posted on 01/19/2013 4:20:56 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: terycarl
I have no idea as to what this post means!!!

Be careful here - as the mod will getcha for making this thread about yerself.

2,242 posted on 01/19/2013 4:22:12 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Natural Law
But like treasure in earthen vessels, the Pope's proclamations on issues of morals and faith are guided by the promised Paraclete.

Oh?

And all along I had the impression he was going by what the EARLIER popes before him had pontificated about.

Silly me.

2,243 posted on 01/19/2013 4:23:35 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: terycarl
from who, if not the Catholic church, would you have learned anything..........there was no one else professing the message.....no one.

You STILL don't get the 7,000 thing; do you...

2,244 posted on 01/19/2013 4:24:21 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Natural Law
Some abuses did take place, but those were contrary to Church teaching.

But, if this is true, how did they become church ACTION?

2,245 posted on 01/19/2013 4:25:13 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: metmom
So why does it rankle Catholics that we are sure of our salvation, again?

It reminds them of the USELESS rituals they continually perform to RETAIN their salvation.

2,246 posted on 01/19/2013 4:26:27 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Natural Law
"By their fruit you will recognize them."-

You are using ONLY scripture to make your point?

2,247 posted on 01/19/2013 4:27:31 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Natural Law
"By their fruit you will recognize them."-

BTW; in context; you'll find Jesus is speaking of FALSE PROPHETS in this passage.

2,248 posted on 01/19/2013 4:28:16 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: terycarl
Clueless is the correct word

I'm standing right here!

2,249 posted on 01/19/2013 4:30:01 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: terycarl
........wonder when I did??

HMMmm...

SOMEone just mentioned 'clueless'...

2,250 posted on 01/19/2013 4:30:53 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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