Posted on 04/06/2013 9:21:17 AM PDT by knarf
Dave will be greatly missed
He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.--Revelation 22:20Come quickly. Please
“But whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in this world or the next.” — Jesus
“But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.” 1 Corinthians 3:15
Not really. Couple thousand spectators. Had a bunch of volunteers who helped with crowd movement and taking an offering to pay for the venue. I can’t remember what we did for sound and lighting but that wasn’t my area. We rented a high school auditoreum
AMEN!
I’ll bet it was a nice experience.
Beware to those that deny Christ and His "it is finished" sacrifice which makes Christians "white as snow"
“Come now, and let us reason together,” Says the Lord, “Though your sins are like scarlet, They shall be as white as snow--Isaiah 1:18Are you attempting to tie your "through fire" scripture quote with purgatory?
“But whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in this world or the next.” —Jesus
This statement demonstrates, without doubt, the possibility of the forgiveness of some sins in the next world.
The passage from Corinthians fleshes out this process a bit more.
You wrote:
“I Corrected your statement.”
No you didn’t.
“That’s why I quoted DIRECTLY from Catholic dogma.”
The problem is not what you quoted, but what you claim it means. I got it right. You didn’t.
“Sorry, Jesus died for our sins, and cleansed us from them.”
And Purgatory doesn’t negate that. What powers Purgatory is Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross. There is no other origin of grace. That’s the whole point.
“He died on the cross with ALL of our sins upon Him, making purgatory unnecessary and in fact denies the sacrifice that Jesus made on the cross.”
False. Purgatory can only exist BECAUSE of Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. It doesn’t deny but actually wholeheartedly affirms it.
“Here is the quote FROM CATHOLIC teachings, I will “bold” the parts you seemed not to see:”
I did see the parts in bold the first time. The problem is not my eyesight but your interpretation. I got it right. You didn’t. That won’t change.
If we actually look at the document you’re quoting from we’ll see that you’re honesty is the same as Hunt’s.
Here’s the first sentence:
“The latter council described purgatory as a place where the souls of the dead make expiation “in the next life through fire and torments or purifying punishments.””
The claim made that “The latter council described purgatory as a place where the souls of the dead make expiation...” is false. The Council did not describe Purgator that way. The quote is actually lifted from a document on indulgences written two years after the Second Vatican Council ended. Hunt never cared about being accurate or precise. He was a bigot. That’s why on page 474 of his anti-Catholic book, A Woman Rides the Beast, (yes, I’ve read it and own a copy) he says (just look for footnote 1) that the quote is from Vatican II even though it is not. Again, facts don’t actually matter to bigots.
Here’s the actual passage from the original document:
2. The truth has been divinely revealed that sins are followed by punishments. God’s holiness and justice inflict them. Sins must be expiated. This may be done on this earth through the sorrows, miseries and trials of this life and, above all, through death. (3) Otherwise the expiation must be made in the next life through fire and torments or purifying punishments. (4) This is why the faithful have always been convinced that the paths of evil are strewn with many stumbling blocks. They bring to those who follow them adversities, bitterness and harm. (5).
Now back to the quote you posted:
“According to Vatican II, “in purgatory the souls of those ‘who died in the charity of God and truly repentant, but who had not made satisfaction with adequate penance for their sins and omissions’ are cleansed after death with punishments designed to purge away their debt.””
Well, again, there’s the problem of the quote not actually being from Vatican II. Vatican II ended in 1965. The quote is - apparently according to other sources - from 1967. Then again, Hunt always did this quoting within a quot thing and was so dishonest in his efforts that it is difficult to source what he claims anyway. See Flannery, Vol. 1 page 64 if you don’t believe me.
“The Catechism of the Catholic Church describes purgatory as place of “cleansing fire.”[1031]
Here Hunt get the Catechism number right, but leaves out the full quote because it says:
“1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:
“As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.”
“Look it up.”
Did. Saw once again that Hunt is. . . er, WAS dishonest. Now he’s just dead.
“If you disagree with it, good.”
I disagree with Hunt’s dishonesty - his taking things out of context and his dishonest interpretation.
“Jesus already did that.”
No. What Jesus did was win forgiveness for us. Jesus did not purge your sinfulness on the Cross. He won forgiveness for us. We must still go to Him to have that forgiveness applied to us. This is why Protestants believe in “altar calls” to come to Jesus and ask for forgiveness. Have you never read Colossians 2:13-15 and 1 Cor. 15:1-4 or Hebrews 5:9 ? Jesus died for the forgiveness of our sins, but we must respond to His call to have that forgiveness applied to us and even maintained.
“Should I repeat it or can you read what Jesus did on the cross that I wrote above?”
Oh, I can read just fine. And that’s why I know the truth. You apparently don’t know the truth.
“LOL, Christians don’t go to purgatory upon death, they go right to be with Jesus.”
No. Most who go to Heaven will go through Purgatory first - because they’ll need to (Rev.21:27).
“(Dave Hunt did a great job exposing the fallacy of purgatory)”
No, his excellence seems to be in making a mockery of himself, showing himself to be a sciolist.
“I can give you the scriptures to confirm if you don’t know them.”
I know them - and I know the truth. It is clear you either don’t know them or don’t understand them.
Sir, I am not going to get into a long, drawn-out debate with you or anyone else about this doctrine. I will say this much: I read Scripture, I do keep searching and, based on my studies and meditations, this doctrine does NOT line up with Scripture, period. I understand what you’re trying to tell but I’ve heard all the arguments for this doctrine and, based on my CONTINUED studies in the Scriptures, they are not persuasive.
But, I appreciate your concern though. Thank you.
Did my post suggest otherwise? I believe I was very clear: I learned A LOT from Dave Hunt and I have no ill will towards the man. How does one have ill will towards one of their first teachers of the faith? I greatly respected Dave Hunt and read many of his books. I simply disagreed with his teachings on Once Saved Always Saved and, as I pointed out to someone else on this topic, I am not going to be drawn into a debate about that.
I don't know what translation you are using, but here are three quotes referencing what you are speaking of:
"Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." [Mt. 12:32]No one who commits this grievous sin will enter heaven.
"But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit can never have forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin." [Mk. 3:29]
"And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven." [Lk. 12:10]
And it WILL not be purged it the un-Biblical purgatory of Catholicism.
I did no interpretations, nor did I quote from Dave Hunt at all.
I quoted from Catholic doctrine.
If you don’t accept it, fine it’s from your tradition.
I have no idea what Hunt quoted, like I said I quoted from official Catholic doctrine, with reference.
I took nothing out of context, and you keep beating up on Hunt, and then me for using his material. I didn’t. I used Catholic material.
I won’t waste my time on the rest of your jibber jabber (thanks Penny) as it would be just spinning wheels.
I get it you hate Hunt, and seem to like mentioning that he is dead.
Nice.
The point is that Jesus took our sins on the cross with Him, and He took ALL the punishment for them.
Purgatory denies that, not affirms His sacrifice.
Contrary to your beliefs, purgatory can NOT exist precisely BECAUSE of Christ’s sacrifice.
It’s nice to know that Jesus taking our sins settled it once and for all.
It seems you will continue to believe in the teachings of the belief system you are committed to, and maybe because of that God will allow you some punishment so you can feel better about what you believe.
I doubt it though, He loves you too much to have you endure what he already endured for you.
—— No one who commits this grievous sin will enter heaven-——
Read my posts again.
I’m not arguing that point.
The purpose of the quote was to show Jesus speaking of the possibility of the forgiveness of some sins in “the world to come.”
World, age etc: 1000 year rein.
You wrote:
“I did no interpretations, nor did I quote from Dave Hunt at all.”
So you quoted someone else without attribution? Typical.
“I quoted from Catholic doctrine.”
No, it looks like you quoted James McCarthy: http://www.btwol.com/06_Articles/List_of_articles/Purgatory.htm verbatim!!!
“If you don’t accept it, fine it’s from your tradition.”
No, McCarthy is one of yours, not ours.
“I have no idea what Hunt quoted, like I said I quoted from official Catholic doctrine, with reference.”
Again, you quoted McCarthy VERBATIM.
“I took nothing out of context, and you keep beating up on Hunt, and then me for using his material. I didn’t. I used Catholic material.”
No, you used McCarthy. The quote is EXACTLY the same - VERBATIM. So, he took the original texts out of context and you didn’t know it because you’re never read them.
“I won’t waste my time on the rest of your jibber jabber (thanks Penny) as it would be just spinning wheels.”
Like claiming you quoted Catholic sources when really you just quoted McCarthy. Here again is the link: http://www.btwol.com/06_Articles/List_of_articles/Purgatory.htm
It’s amazing how intellectually dishonest anti-Catholics are.
“I get it you hate Hunt, and seem to like mentioning that he is dead.”
I don’t hate him. I do hate his sinfully dishonest ways. I mentioned he was dead, That’s what the thread IS about isn’t it?
“Nice. The point is that Jesus took our sins on the cross with Him, and He took ALL the punishment for them.”
If that were true as you are casting it then there would be no suffering in this life. Have you ever suffered? Ever gotten sick? Clearly Christ took our ULTIMATE penalty of sin. But if there was no other punishment then you would never get sick, old or die.
“Purgatory denies that, not affirms His sacrifice.”
No. It is the exact opposite. Purgatory can only exist because of His sacrifice.
“Contrary to your beliefs, purgatory can NOT exist precisely BECAUSE of Christ’s sacrifice.”
No, if that were true then no cleansing at all could exist but clearly it does.
“It’s nice to know that Jesus taking our sins settled it once and for all.”
It settled the issue of redemption, but not everyone will be saved. The view you are putting forward logically demands that all men will be saved no matter what they do or believe - even if they deny Christ - and yet at the same time you would strenuously deny that exact point. That is the illogic of Protestantism.
“It seems you will continue to believe in the teachings of the belief system you are committed to, and maybe because of that God will allow you some punishment so you can feel better about what you believe.”
No, what will happen is that I will continue to believe in teh gospel as taught by God, His word and the Church (notice how you ran away from dealing with the verses I posted to you?).
“I doubt it though, He loves you too much to have you endure what he already endured for you.”
I don’t have to endure what He endured. I must only endure what I must. Sometimes that includes enduring the ignorance of fools too.
I have no doubt that Dave has met his Lord, and heard, "Well done, my good and faithful servant."
Oh, you mean he didn't believe the first eleven chapters of Genesis are mythology. Thanks for clearing that up.
You know, I'm not Protestant and certainly would have little in common with Dave Hunt (who would of necessity believed that I am headed for hell), but the typical shameful behavior of Catholic FReepers is once again on display for all to see.
Between the Catholic liberals and Catholic FReepers, who would want to be part of such a religion?
ZC,
I bet you can relate any thing and any discussion to the first 11 chapters of Genesis. And that’s fine. Hunt is still dead. And you are still wrong about many things.
Here, read it from the horses mouth.
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/romancat.html
Just because someone you don't like quotes it, doesn't make it untrue.
Catholics argue like Mormons, denying their own teachings.
If you want, when you die you can go directly into the arms of Jesus.
I don’t have to endure what He endured. I must only endure what I must.
Christians don't have to endure anything at death.
New sins can be INSTANTLY forgiven by going to Jesus in prayer and repentance. If you wish to hold on to sins (endure) until you can confess formally to a man in holy garments, that is your choice.
If you wish to go through purgatory, maybe that is possible if you want it bad enough.
My best to you.
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