Pope: Mary is always in a hurry to help us (first pastoral visit to a diocese in Rome)

Vatican Radio ^ | May 26, 2013

[NYer]

(Vatican Radio) Early on Sunday the feast of the Holy Trinity Pope Francis made his first Pastoral visit to a Diocese in Rome. The Parish of Saint Elisabeth and Zechariah gave the Pope a rapturous welcome as he arrived by helicopter to celebrate Mass and administer the Sacrament of Holy Communion to 16 children.
The Pope addressing the children and the congregation present underlined the importance of praying to the Madonna. Mary, the Holy Father said is always in a hurry to help us, teaching us to understand God. She was there, the Pope added, to help her cousin Elizabeth when she was expecting her baby and she is always there when we need her.
The Holy Father also focused on the theme of the Holy Trinity during his Homily telling the parishioners present that The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one. The Father, the Pope explained is the principle figure, he created everything, he created us. Jesus, meanwhile, said Pope Francis is the saviour. He came down to earth to give his life for us. Lastly, observing the importance of the Holy Spirit, the Pope said, he loves us.
The Christian life the Pope continued means talking to this Trinity. The Holy Francis also said it is the he son who walks with us. The Holy Father described how Jesus gives us the strength to carry on our journey even in difficult times; he is never far our side.
After greeting the many parishioners following Mass, the Pope returned to the Vatican by helicopter for the recitation of the Sunday Angelus.

[Greetings_Puny_Humans]

“Too many posters do not think, ponder or ruminate before they spout. The discussion as to the limitations and abilities of spiritual creatures was allegedly “proved” by a single verse from Daniel, but it required that we suspend all other knowledge of angels and other spiritual creatures to accept it. It ignores that there are nine types of angels and that each individual angel is a unique species. “

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There is no knowledge of spiritual creatures being omnipresent or omniscient anywhere in the scripture. No matter how many different “species” you imagine, like you’re some kind of Angel Biologist, you can’t demonstrate how any created being can actually share in God’s omnipresence and be in more than one place at one time. Gabriel is one of the angels who ‘stands before the Throne of God.” Presumably, if you are playing the Angel Biologist, you can imagine him as being a mighty and well honored angel. Yet, God did not give him the ability to be omnipresent or omniscient. He is still a created being, no matter how many wings he has, or how many eyes, or what Angel “species” he is; quite the silly concept, by the way. So you ignore the direct biblical evidence to still somehow justify your ridiculous fables, and you even add to them while you’re at it.

[Natural Law]

"...in more than one language..."

It seems like all of your objections are countered by actually considering the Gifts of the Holy Spirit:

•The Word of Knowledge
•The Word of Wisdom
•The Gift of Prophecy
•The Gift of Faith
•The Gifts of Healings
•The Working of Miracles
•The Discerning of Spirits
•The Gift of Tongues
•The Interpretation of Tongues

Let's hear your proof-text that the gifts of the Holy Spirit do not and cannot apply to Mary the Mother of God.

Peace be with you

[Greetings_Puny_Humans]

“Let’s hear your proof-text that the gifts of the Holy Spirit do not and cannot apply to Mary the Mother of God.”

---

* The Gift of Omnipresence and Omniscience
* The Gift of being a lesser deity
* The Gift of earning the right to receive prayer
* The gift of earning the right to dispense with grace like it’s an inanimate magical power

Oops, I don’t see them in your list. Furthermore, the gifts of the spirit are given to living believers as well (and I don’t see any of them in more than one place at one time). Any other ridiculous points you want me to address?

[FourtySeven]

Furthermore, human beings who are alive aren’t in heaven. They’re on Earth

This is also an important point to remember in my "explaination" maybe I should have made its importance clear.

People in heaven most certainly are alive and, as has been shown ad nauseum on this board, from Scripture and other sources, those in heaven are very much arguably "more alive" than we are since they are fully in Christ, much more so than we are (as we only see "darkly". Again this fact has been shown countless times conclusively so I'm not going to to repeat its construction here)

Suffice it to say, given they are more alive than us, it doesn't require omnipotence/ omnipresence/ omni-anything for them to hear our prayers, as its our prayers that "cross over" to their ears not the reverse.

The notion that those in heaven are more alive than us, and that they are outside of time is not unique to Cathoicism. It's not merely "invented" to "make sense of some RCC fantasy". These are concepts many theologians have deduced and reasoned for a variety of reasons not just for the apologetic.

[Heart-Rest]

This is where I was trying to help you in my previous post. Instead of writing long, rambling tedious, tiresome posts (which require similar long responses to answer all the points), it is much better to spend that same amount of time thinking and praying for greater understanding of the meaning of the quotes you will be using in your post, and what specific words and terms actually, really, truthfully mean, not what you would like them to mean.

I did read your "post 114", and saw there a long list of unsourced quotes. (It is considered common courtesy that when you provide a quote, you provide the source of that quote so that others may check them out themselves and read them in context.)

The reason that context and sources are important is to help avoid distortions and misleading misinterpretations. A good example of this I recently encountered somewhere was this. "The Bible says 'He went and hanged himself' -- 'go and do likewise'." Without knowing that they are totally unrelated statements, one from Matthew 27:5 and the other from Luke 10:37, one could easily get the wrong impression by how those two sources are dishonestly quoted.

Well, let's just assume for purposes of this discussion that all of your posts are accurate and not misleading due to being removed from their contexts. One obvious problem still remaining is the way you interpret these quotes without applying simple logic to them.

If God was to make you a mansion, and God decided to install a faucet to bring the water from an external source into your mansion for your use, God makes that faucet a "source" of your water. It is not the water itself, but, rather, a source of your water. The external source of the water is also a source of your water. Without that faucet that God chose to use to bring the water in for you to access it, the water would remain outside your mansion, and you would not be able to access it in the way God chose to have you access it.

In the same way, your Mother is a source of you. God chose your Mother to bring you into this world. (Do you agree with that so far?)

God also chose in His Perfect Sovereign Will to use Mary as the Mother to bring His Son in His human nature into this world, did He not? God could have created that human nature of His Son out of the dust of the earth (like Adam), or God could have just spoken to endow Him with His human nature, or used an infinite variety of other methods to bring His Son into His human nature in this world. However, God chose to use Mary as the "conduit" or "gateway" to bring His Son's human nature into this world. Do you agree with that so far?

Do you agree that the little baby that Mary bore was the most precious baby ever born, and that that birth was the most profound, holy, unique, special birth that ever took place?

Mary was the human source that brought us the human nature of Jesus. Jesus, in His Mercy, is our Redeemer and Savior. In that sense, God chose that Mary would participate in bringing us Jesus, who brings us the opportunity for our salvation. Mary did not choose that on her own, the Church did not choose that -- God chose that. That is all those "source" and "gateway" kinds of quotes you are using are actually saying, sometimes in a flowery, poetic, old-fashioned manner. You are reading other inaccurate/untrue things into those quotes that are simply not there. (Remember that all untruths, whether uttered wittingly or unwittingly, come from Satan, the father of all lies, according to Jesus. John 8:44)

Let's look seriously at some more of the many errors you are erroneously asserting.

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" I said: “How in the world do you know what God does or does not do? "

Your response:

"Isa_43:10 ... before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me."

"God declares that no other God can be formed after Him. The attributes that are required to hear every prayer in the world, understand them, and understand the heart of the person praying, are all qualities of God. No spirit is capable of being in more than one place at one time, or holding such a vast amount of knowledge which changes and grows every day."

That Bible text says nothing whatsoever about whether saints can hear prayers or not. Your specious claim that "No spirit can do this or that" is, with all due respect, a crock of doo-doo. A spirit can do anything and everything that God wills it to do. You have absolutely no say in the matter. (Furthermore, what you say about that text in your comments following it is (truthfully) not found in that Bible text either. Please be honest about that.)

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You've said a number of times that you've seen this person or that person kneeling down before a statue, and that they are obviously worshiping the statue or the person the statue represents.

I don't know if you are familiar with baseball or not, but if a person from another culture came to a baseball game in America, and saw a batter in the "on-deck circle" kneeling and looking intently at the pitcher, they might think at first that the batter is worshiping the pitcher, but would they be correct in thinking that? As a Brit might say, "Not bloody likely!". As they say, appearances are deceiving.

And no one but that batter and God knows what that batter is thinking. He might be thinking "I can hit this guy", or he might be thinking "Boy, he really has a great fastball", or he may be thinking about his girlfriend, or his wife, or his finances, or what he was having for dinner, or something else. Only God and that batter know what the batter is thinking.

Likewise for people kneeling before a statue. In spite of your arrogant claims, you most certainly do NOT know if that person is worshiping or not, or what that person is thinking, or what is in their heart, soul, and mind. Only God and the person kneeling there know those things (and anyone God chooses to share them with).

If someone sees me kneeling before a statue of Mary, and tries to claim I am worshiping Mary, they are saying a complete untruth (a lie), and are knowingly or unknowingly working for Satan, the father of lies. If they persist in saying that falsehood even after they are informed they are wrong, they are demonstrating that they are invincibly ignorant and dishonest. Only God and myself know if and when I am worshiping, what I am thinking, and what is in my heart and mind. Anyone who claims they know what another person anywhere is doing "inside" is a liar. Only God and the person know those things, and whoever God chooses to share them with, such as the angels and saints.

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" It’s actually not clear that EITHER of them are actually dead... "

Does the Bible tell us that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob died? What did Jesus say about them?

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" On how to pray: Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. "

Well, if you follow that instruction literally and exclusively, the only prayer you would ever say would be the "Lord's Prayer", the "Our Father". Now you might be different, but most Christians I know (both Protestants and Catholics) pray the "Our Father", but they also pray informal, spontaneous prayers in their own words freely chosen, which are not found anywhere in the Bible.

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" Against the repetition of prayer: Mat_6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. "

Assuming this accusation is a vain repetition of the tired old nonsense about the "Rosary". Your problem here is how you define "vain repetitions". For example, if someone prays "Holy, Holy, Holy", is that a "vain repetition"?

Read this:

The objection so often made against its "vain repetitions" is felt by none but those who have failed to realize how entirely the spirit of the exercise lies in the meditation upon the fundamental mysteries of our faith. To the initiated the words of the angelical salutation form only a sort of half-conscious accompaniment, a bourdon which we may liken to the "Holy, Holy, Holy" of the heavenly choirs and surely not in itself meaningless. (Excerpt - read entire article here:    The Rosary)

In other areas, you also miss the point by a wide margin. For example (and force yourself to be honest here), has your faith ever moved a real, literal mountain? If not, does that mean that you have no faith?

Do you honestly think that Jesus did not see His own Mother as being "blessed"?

Do you think we should all honor our Mothers? Is it a good idea to show other peoples' Mothers respect and honor? Do you think we should show great honor and respect to the Mother of Jesus, Our Lord and Savior, the woman chosen by God Almighty to be the Mother of Jesus?

You said that the idea of Mary's giving her consent for bearing and giving birth to Jesus somehow sounded blasphemous. Are you serious? Do you see God as some kind of Hitlerish dictator who does not give us the gift of free will, to enable us to say yes or no to the salvation God offers us, or to other decisions?

You say the Catholic Church tries to deify Mary - that is completely, 100% false, and you now know without a doubt where all falsehoods come from because Jesus told us, and I passed it on to you.

You can say it over and over and over and over... that does not make it any more true. (For example, if I say "The moon is made of cheese", "The moon is made of cheese", "The moon is made of cheese", "The moon is made of cheese", "The moon is made of cheese", "The moon is made of cheese", "The moon is made of cheese", "The moon is made of cheese", "The moon is made of cheese", "The moon is made of cheese", "The moon is made of cheese", "The moon is made of cheese", "The moon is made of cheese", "The moon is made of cheese", "The moon is made of cheese", "The moon is made of cheese", ... the endless repetition does not make it even a smidgeon more true -- it remains totally false.)

(And as for individual Catholics, out of all the Catholics I personally know, I've never known one Catholic who worships Mary, or sees her as some kind of God or Goddess. It is simply not true.)

Catholics also do not worship statues. It is like a soldier who holds a picture of his far-away wife while he prays at night, or a person holding the Bible while they kneel before their bed and pray. The soldier is not worshiping the picture, just using it to more clearly bring his wife into his mind as he prays, and the person kneeling and holding the Bible is not worshiping the Bible or the bed, just praying and using the Bible for inspiration. Catholics use statues and icons and other pictures as inspirations to bring to mind the person they are asking for prayers from.

Now, God can (of course) hear every prayer ever prayed. As I said in an earlier post, God often chooses to have human beings (creatures) partner with God in the work He wants done. I used the examples of how we've all learned about the stories of Jesus -- God chose human beings like "Matthew", "Mark", "Luke","John", "Paul", "Peter", "James", etc. (as well as more recent authors who derive their stories from those original authors), to teach these stories about Jesus to all of us. God could have whispered those stories and teachings in our ears, or implanted them in our minds, or any number of other possible methods, but he chose to partner with mere human beings to pass on these great teachings and stories to us.

Likewise, God could have made all of us by just speaking us into being, or using dust like God did for Adam, or various other ways, but He has chosen to usually have mere human beings partner with Him and play a part in bringing other new human beings into existence.

God often uses human beings to partner with Him in order to do various functions and tasks. This includes those who are already "with the Lord" praying with and for people still on earth.

One last point - I strongly urge you to stop putting up the phony-baloney straw-men of obscure, flowery and poetic musings and writings from deep in the past in order to try to shoot them down, and instead take a serious, completely honest look at the actual teachings and doctrines of the Catholic Church, as found in the "Catechism of the Catholic Church" (available here)) or online here)

My intention right now is that this will be my last post on this thread, as I've already taken up enough space here.

[Natural Law]

"Oops, I don’t see them in your list."

They are constructs of your imagination, but thank you for giving me this teaching moment. You have constructed a text book example of a straw man argument by creating a false example and then taking credit for a brilliant rebuke of it. It might gain some traction in your circles, but among the educated it looks amateurish and deceitful.

Catholics and most other Christians believe the Gospels when they say that the saints are not dead. We ask them, like we ask our friends and family, to pray for us. Mary is not excluded from this. She is who She is only because He is who He is.

Peace be with you.

[ForAmerica]

Why do you need a congregation, a pastor, preacher, minister, choir, seminary, or Bible college? Isn't the bible given you by His Church all you really need?

I wasn't trying to be nasty or anything, just curious. I just wanted you to answer the question, not answer with a question

For the record, I don't need anything that you listed to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and He is the only mediator between me and God. I haven't read in the bible where there is another mediator (mediatrix) other than Jesus Christ. Can you give me a chapter and verse, please?

[Greetings_Puny_Humans]

“Suffice it to say, given they are more alive than us, it doesn’t require omnipotence/ omnipresence/ omni-anything for them to hear our prayers, as its our prayers that “cross over” to their ears not the reverse.”

---

The RCC does not teach that Mary is receiving transmissions from Earth. According to Pope Benedict the 16th, she shares in God’s omnipresence and is, therefore, personally present with every Catholic believer.

“Mary is taken up body and soul into the glory of Heaven, and with God and in God she is Queen of Heaven and earth. And is she really so remote from us?

The contrary is true. Precisely because she is with God and in God, she is very close to each one of us.

While she lived on this earth she could only be close to a few people. Being in God, who is close to us, actually, “within” all of us, Mary shares in this closeness of God. Being in God and with God, she is close to each one of us, knows our hearts, can hear our prayers, can help us with her motherly kindness and has been given to us, as the Lord said, precisely as a “mother” to whom we can turn at every moment.

She always listens to us, she is always close to us, and being Mother of the Son, participates in the power of the Son and in his goodness. We can always entrust the whole of our lives to this Mother, who is not far from any one of us.”

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/homilies/2005/documents/hf_ben-xvi_hom_20050815_assunzione-maria_en.html

“Papa” Francis speaks of the “spiritual presence” of Mary:

April 28, 2013
Regina Caeli

“I would like to entrust the confirmandi and all of you to Our Lady. The Virgin Mary teaches us what it means to live in the Holy Spirit and what it means to welcome the newness of God in our life. She conceived Jesus by the work of the Spirit, and every Christian, each one of us, is called to welcome the Word of God, to welcome Jesus in ourselves and then bring him to everyone. Mary invoked the Spirit with the Apostles in the upper room: every time that we come together in prayer, we are supported by the SPIRITUAL PRESENCE of the Mother of Jesus, to receive the gift of the Spirit and to have the ability to bear witness to the risen Jesus. I say this in a special way to you who have received Confirmation today: may Mary help you to be attentive to that which the Lord asks of you, and always to live and to walk according to the Holy Spirit!”

This poor fellow prays the Rosary, and personally receives visible confirmation of her presence. Evidently, every time someone prays the Rosary all the way through, she and Jesus get a crown of roses:

“Our Lady has shown her thorough approval of the name Rosary; she had revealed to several people that each time they say a Hail Mary they are giving her a beautiful rose and that each complete Rosary makes her a crown of roses.

The well-known Jesuit, Brother Alphonsus Rodriguez, used to say his Rosary with such fervor that he often saw a red rose come out of his mouth at each Our Father and a white rose at each Hail Mary. The red and white roses were equal in beauty and fragrance, the only difference being in their color.

The chronicles of Saint Francis tell of a young friar who had the praiseworthy habit of saying the Crown of Our Lady (the Rosary) every day before dinner. One day for some reason or other he did not manage to say it. The refectory bell had already been rung when he asked the Superior to allow him to say it before coming to the table, and having obtained the permission he withdrew to his cell to pray.

After he had been gone a long time the Superior sent another Friar to fetch him, and he found him in his room bathed in a heavenly light facing Our Lady who had two angels with her. Beautiful roses kept issuing from his mouth at each Hail Mary; the angels took them one by one, placing them on Our Lady’s head, and she smilingly accepted them.”

http://www.rosary-center.org/secret.htm

The RCC does not teach that she receives our messages into eternity. The RCC claims that Mary is personally hearing the prayers and is present with the Catholic believer. Not only that, but you should read that last link. Evidently, many vain repetitions of the Rosary gain eternal life. I got the title of the work from the Vatican website, which is:

“The Secret of the Rosary

by St. Louis De Montfort”

For any lurkers, I recommend reading the link in full, to totally understand the sheer idolatrous nature of the RCC’s adoration of Mary, and of their superstitious nature.

[Greetings_Puny_Humans]

“Catholics and most other Christians believe the Gospels when they say that the saints are not dead.”

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The Gospels do not teach that the saints are omnipresent and omniscient, sharing in the divine attributes of God. This strawman of yours won’t help your cause.

[Natural Law]

"I haven't read in the bible where..."

I wasn't trying to nasty or anything either. I just want to know where in the bible it actually says what the bible is or what is contained in it and, for that matter, where it says that all revealed truth is contained in it.

Peace and blessings to you

[Greetings_Puny_Humans]

I think much of what you wrote would only lead me to repeating what I’ve already said before, and also to the other fellows, so I’ll only touch on a few issues:

“Well, if you follow that instruction literally and exclusively, the only prayer you would ever say would be the “Lord’s Prayer”, the “Our Father”.”

---

If we follow them as He intended them, an example of “how” to pray, we would direct all prayer to God alone. There is no biblical justification whatsoever for praying to any one else in the scripture. You’re free to produce it, of course.

“Assuming this accusation is a vain repetition of the tired old nonsense about the “Rosary”. Your problem here is how you define “vain repetitions”. For example, if someone prays “Holy, Holy, Holy”, is that a “vain repetition”?”

---

I define vain repetition this way:

“Strictly speaking, there can be only one kind of Confraternity of the Rosary - one whose members agree to say the entire Rosary of one hundred and fifty Hail Marys every day. However, considering the fervor of those who say it, we may distinguish three kinds: Ordinary membership which entails saying the complete Rosary once a week; Perpetual membership which requires it be said only once a year; Daily membership which obliges one to say it all every day, that is, the fifteen decades made up one hundred and fifty Hail Marys.

None of these Rosary memberships binds under the pain of sin. It is not even a venial sin to fail in this duty because such an undertaking is entirely voluntary and supererogatory. Needless to say, people should not join the Confraternity if they do not intend to fulfill their obligation by saying the Rosary as often as is required, without, however, neglecting the duties of their state in life.

So whenever the Rosary clashes with a duty of one’s state in life, holy as the Rosary is, one must give preference to the duty to be performed. Similarly, sick people are not obliged to say the whole Rosary or even part of it if this effort might tire them and make them worse.

If you have been unable to say it because of some duty required by obedience or because you genuinely forgot, or because of some urgent necessity, you have not committed even a venial sin. You will then receive the benefits of the Confraternity just the same, sharing in the graces and merits of your brothers and sisters in the Holy Rosary who are saying it throughout the world.

And, my dear Catholic people, even if you fail to say your Rosary out of sheer carelessness or laziness, as long as you do not have any formal contempt for it, you do not sin, absolutely speaking - but in this case you forfeit your participation in the prayers, good works and merits of the Confraternity. More over, because you have not been faithful in things that are little and of superegoation, almost without knowing it you may fall into the habit of neglecting big things such as those duties which bind under pain of sin. For - “He that condemneth small things, shall fall by little and little.” [1] [1] Ecclus. 19:1”

http://www.rosary-center.org/secret.htm

This is a pretty firm example of a mechanical and soulless view to prayer, as if by praying the same words hundreds of times is gaining for you some kind of reward or grace. You say that they “meditate” on these words. Why, I’m sure every pagan in the world could say something to that effect. Real prayer does not consist of studying the words to a magic spell. Prayer is communication with God alone, wherein we confess our sins, lay upon Him our burdens, and ask Him for His divine aid. It is a personal and living communication (and relationship) between the saved Christian and His creator, not a ritual formula for receiving rewards for your merits.

Here’s more from that blasphemous link:

“One day the King fell seriously ill and when he was given up for dead he found himself, in a vision, before the judgement seat of Our Lord. Many devils were there accusing him of all the sins he had committed and Our Lord as Sovereign Judge was just about to condemn him to hell when Our Lady appeared to intercede for him. She called for a pair of scales and had his sins placed in one of the balances whereas she put the rosary that he had always worn on the other scale, together with all the Rosaries that had been said because of his example. It was found that the Rosaries weighed more than his sins.

Looking at him with great kindness Our Lady said: “As a reward for this little honor that you paid me in wearing my Rosary, I have obtained a great grace for you from my Son. Your life will be spared for a few more years. See that you spend these years wisely, and do penance.”

When the King regained consciousness he cried out: “Blessed be the Rosary of the Most Holy Virgin Mary, by which I have been delivered from eternal damnation!”

After he had recovered his health he spent the rest of his life in spreading devotion to the Holy Rosary and said it faithfully every day.

People who love the Blessed Virgin out to follow the example of King Alphonsus and that of the saints whom I have mentioned so that they too may win other souls for the Confraternity of the Holy Rosary. They will then receive great graces on earth and eternal life later on. “They that explain me shall have life everlasting life.” [1] Ecclus. 24:31”

This is, certainly, the height of blasphemy and idolatry!

[Natural Law]

"This strawman of yours won’t help your cause."

You are basing your entire straw man argument upon what you believe the Gospels no not say. I am basing my counter to your straw man upon what they do say. One verse in Daniel, which by the way is not a Gospel, does not contain all that is known or revealed about spiritual beings, nor does it claim that all spiritual beings have the limitations and capabilities of the angel in Daniel.

I am not here to engage in a debate or even an argument (as opposed to a quarrel). The veracity of Catholic teaching is not in question. The bottom line is that I have studied the Bible, theology, philosophy and Catholic teaching extensively. I have read and studied the works of many brilliant theologians along side the infallible teachings of the Magisterium. It is against this that I compare and contrast your opinions. I find them, for want of a better word, puny.

Peace be with you

[Greetings_Puny_Humans]

“One verse in Daniel, which by the way is not a Gospel,”

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What an absurd thing to say, and it certainly reveals a very, shall we say, desperate way of thinking. Why would you attempt to downplay the importance of Daniel, a book of scripture? That “one example,” shows an angel who is not actually omnipresent, contrary to your claim that spirits are capable of being multipresent (and in Mary’s case, omnipresent). You later assert that you have studied “the Bible, theology, philosophy and Catholic teaching extensively,” yet your posts are utterly devoid of any thing like that. Your argument consists of downplaying scripture, and then telling me that just because you have no evidence for your theology, doesn’t mean it isn’t true.

[BlueDragon]

Shooting spitwads again? ‘Tis a pattern...

[Natural Law]

"That “one example,” shows an angel who is not actually omnipresent..."

Attempts to waive the bloody shirt to deflect the argument to my supposed blasphemy and denigration of the Book of Daniel is both specious and desperate. You cannot be seriously expect me or anyone else to take one reference to one angel and extrapolate it to all spiritual beings. Forgive me if I can't take you seriously.

Peace be with you

[Greetings_Puny_Humans]

“You cannot be seriously expect me or anyone else to take one reference to one angel and extrapolate it to all spiritual beings. Forgive me if I can’t take you seriously.”

---

lol, do you expect me to take these arguments seriously? If spirits are not bound to being in one location at a time... how come Gabriel is? Are some spirits made of a different spiritual material, that just isn’t as, uh, prone to multiple division as other spiritual bodies? Stop projecting your ridiculousness on me.

[Natural Law]

"His entire theology depends on downplaying the role and authority of scripture."

Aside from violating the rules by again making a post about me, that is a completely false characterization of Catholic teaching.

In my defense I have no reason to believe that ForAmerica too is a bibliolator.

Sacred Scripture is a subset of the Revealed Word, indeed a significant subset, but only a subset.

Peace be with you

[Greetings_Puny_Humans]

In my defense I have no reason to believe that ForAmerica too is a bibliolator.. Sacred Scripture is a subset of the Revealed Word, indeed a significant subset, but only a subset.

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So you accuse me of being wrong for pointing out that you downplay the authority and role of scripture... and refute me by accusing posters of being a “bibliolater,” and affirming that the scripture is “only a subset” of your theology?

If Roman Catholic theology teaches that spiritual bodies are capable of being in more than one place at one time (and, actually, it doesn’t. The RCC has no official, actual teaching on how Mary is present with every Catholic believer. They simply assert that she is), then it stands to reason then that you should be able to explain to my why Gabriel could not be with Daniel when he was being held-up by the demonic “prince.” Was he feeling sick that day? Or are not all spirits created equal?

Whenever the Apostles taught or refuted the Pharisees, they did so from the scripture. They never appealed to any other authority, nor did they ever claim that the scripture is a subset of some higher truth. In their view, the scripture is, in fact, the actual word of God on Earth, and therefore absolutely worthy for teachings of doctrine and correction.

If your theology that claims extra-biblical authority cannot be corrected by the scripture per its dictates, it has no authority at all.

[Natural Law]

"Are some spirits made of a different spiritual material"

Spirits are not "made" of material at all. The notion that all creation must have material attributes and the consequential limitations is the heresy of materialism. Spirits have no volume and occupy no space, they are spaceless, because they are superior to the need for space. Spirits are partless. There is no element of a spirit which is not the whole of it.

We know from an exhaustive study of Scripture that there are nine distinct types of angels and each angel a unique species. We know that each human soul is a distinct and unique entity. To presume that all are equal does not comport with Scripture. At a minimum, some are saved and some are not. Some are holier than others. Mary, preserved sinless, is the holiest of all. To presume that She does not possess gifts that you and I do not or will not have is simply not worth discussing. Presenting these ideas under a new name does not give them new credibility.

Peace be with you.