Posted on 05/26/2013 3:54:31 AM PDT by NYer
2. Mary’s part in the sanctification of souls
22. The plan adopted by the three persons of the Blessed Trinity in the Incarnation, the first coming of Jesus Christ, is adhered to each day in an invisible manner throughout the Church and they will pursue it to the end of time until the last coming of Jesus Christ.
23. God the Father gathered all the waters together and called them the seas (maria). He gathered all his graces together and called them Mary (Maria). The great God has a treasury or storehouse full of riches in which he has enclosed all that is beautiful, resplendent, rare, and precious, even his own Son. This immense treasury is none other than Mary whom the saints call the “treasury of the Lord”. From her fullness all men are made rich.
24. God the Son imparted to his mother all that he gained by his life and death, namely, his infinite merits and his eminent virtues. He made her the treasurer of all his Father had given him as heritage. Through her he applies his merits to his members and through her he transmits his virtues and distributes his graces. She is his mystical channel, his aqueduct, through which he causes his mercies to flow gently and abundantly.
I don’t know whether to call that Satanic or Pagan...Probably both...And THAT is the Catholic religion these people are defending...
If you have ever asked someone else for help, you have made a prayer to that person. Just as a lawyer submits a prayer to a judge. Just as anone seeking information might say “pray tell me”. Your problem isn’t theological; it’s semantic. Open a dictionary, for Pete’s sake.
“If you have ever asked someone else for help, you have made a prayer to that person. Just as a lawyer submits a prayer to a judge.”
The only person in heaven who answers prayer and can even hear them is God. Human beings are not omnipresent or omniscient, nor are they ever made to be the recipients of prayer, when Christ Himself tells us the proper way of praying begins -— “Our Father who art in heaven.” Not “Hail Mary, full of grace.”
When I ask my friend Ruth to pray with me, I do not say “Hail Ruth, full of grace, have mercy on us sinners.”
You shouldn’t use terms like “mother of God”, as you plainly have no clue what it means. Your phobic stance towards Mary has left you radically confused about who Jesus is. Just what the Catholic church has been warning against for almost 1600 years.
” Mary’s part in the sanctification of souls”
Mary has no part in the sanctification of souls. It is, in its entirety, the work of the Holy Spirit.
2Th_2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
1Pe_1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Mary is the bride??? Absolutely not...The bride is the Body of Christ, the church...
People with living bodies...But we don't ask them to give us grace or salvation...
I suspect you don't pray to and ask your uncle Hermy who may be a saint in heaven to find your lost keys or help you get a good price on your house...And if your uncle Hermy is in fact in heaven with Jesus, he is just as much a Saint as any of those you pray do to...
There, you got it!
Mary is mentioned only once -- once -- in the Mass, and that is when we are asking everybody to pray for us:
I confess to almighty God, and to you, my brothers and sisters, that I have greatly sinned, in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done, and in what I have failed to do, through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault; therefore I ask blessed Mary ever-virgin, all the angels and saints, and you, my brothers and sisters [that includes you, cookcounty], to pray for me to the Lord our God.
That comes, as I said, once, in the context of intercessory prayer only. We are asking Mary, and you, to pray for us. We don't adore her, any more than we adore you.
(Not that I don't like you, cookcounty, it's just that we are not worshipping you, believe me.)
The Mass then proceeds for another about 20-50 minutes' worth of prayer, beginning with these words:
" Glory to God in the highest,If we worshipped Mary, she would be in that prayer somewhere. But we don't, so she's not.
and peace to his people on earth.
Lord God, heavenly King,
almighty God and Father,
we worship you,
we give you thanks,
we praise you for your glory.
Lord Jesus Christ,
only Son of the Father,
Lord God, Lamb of God,
you take away the sin of the world:
have mercy on us;
you are seated at the right hand of the Father:
receive our prayer.
For you alone are the Holy One,
you alone are the Lord,
you alone are the Most High, Jesus Christ,
with the Holy spirit,
in the glory of God the Father.
Amen."
Do you perceive the difference?
“If we worshipped Mary, she would be in that prayer somewhere. But we don’t, so she’s not.”
Who’re you trying to kid? From: THE LORETO LITANIES
“Holy Mother of God, Holy Virgin of virgins, Mother of the Church, Mother of divine grace, Mother most pure, Mother most chaste, Mother inviolate, Mother undefiled, Mother most amiable, Mother admirable, Mother of good counsel, Mother of mercy, Virgin most prudent, Virgin most powerful, Virgin most merciful, Virgin most faithful, Mirror of justice, Seat of wisdom, Mystical rose, Tower of David, Tower if ivory, Ark of the covenant, Gate of heaven, Morning star, Health of the sick, Refuge of sinners, Comfort of the afflicted, Help of Christians, Queen of Angels, Queen of Patriarchs, Queen of Prophets, Queen of Apostles, Queen of Martyrs, Queen of Confessors, Queen of Virgins, Queen of all Saints, Queen conceived without original sin, Queen assumed into heaven, Queen of the most holy Rosary, Queen of families, Queen of peace. http://www.vatican.va/special/rosary/documents/litanie-lauretane_en.html
Truly only God can give grace and salvation; yet He has a role for His cooperators as well, and we can indeed ask for their help. Our Lord said, "(John 4:22) You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews."
When He says "salvation is from the Jews," he means that the Jews, as cooperators in God's plan, had a role to play to bring people to the point of receiving the Good News of the Gospel.
So a God-fearing Gentile could ask a Jew to teach him the ways of God, to teach him about the Messiah. Thus the Jews are helping the God-fearing Gentile. In this way "Salvation is from [God, through] the Jews."
Similarly, Paul and Barnabas say, "(Acts 13:47) For this is what the Lord has commanded us: “‘I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’”
Here again, God gives salvation, but Paul and Barnabas "bring" salvation, in the sense that they are cooperators with God's grace.
In the same way, I might ask you, or my mother, or anyone, to pray that I might have grace and salvation: again, God only is the source, but the Jews, and Paul and Barnabas, and you and I, help each other spiritually in this way.
(1)I suspect you don't pray to and ask your uncle Hermy who may be a saint in heaven to find your lost keys or help you get a good price on your house...(2)And if your uncle Hermy is in fact in heaven with Jesus, he is just as much a Saint as any of those you pray do to...
Ha! As to Part 1, No, I have never asked Uncle Hermy to help me find lost keys, but as for Part 2, I certainly do pray to Uncle Hermy, or rather the kinfolks I do have in heaven --- I'm thinking particularly of my mother and father --- to pray for me and for the rest of the family. I frequently ask my mother to keep praying for her grandsons. I have every confidence that she does.
She has not ceased to live, she has not ceased to love. She is not some frail wraith, some Casper-the-friendly-ghost. She is a living member of the Body of Christ. "The God of Abraham, of Isaac, and Jacob, is not the God of the dead, but of the living." (John 22:32)
Certainly those in heaven live and love even more fully there, in God's awesome presence, than they did here when they were crawling about in their aging flesh on the crust of this small planet!
She prayed for them since before they were born. Why would she stop now?
But oh dear, you need perhaps to consider aspects of monarchy in God's plan.
hen Solomon was King of Israel, his mother, Bathsheba, was Queen Mother of Israel. That's how Jewish monarchy worked. The Queen wasn't the King's wife (he generally had many wives)\. His wives were plural, his mother was singular. The Queen was one woman, his mother.
That's why you have passages like this:
1 Kings 2:19
"When Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah, the king stood up to meet her, bowed down to her and sat down on his throne. He had a throne brought for the king’s mother, and she sat down at his right hand."
The King of Israel gives the Queen Mother a place of honor at his right hand. Got that?
It's not that she has independent power. She is, however, in an excellent position to intercede.
Similarly with Mary. All of the Old Testament Scriptures --- as you know ---- tell us something about Christ by way of types and prefiguring.
Who else would be the Queen Mother --- other than Mary, the Mother of the King?
All the rest of courtly language flows from that realization.
It is nonsense to think that this Queen is worshipped. Quite the contrary, she is the handmaid of the Lord.
I'll bet you knew that.
Mirror = reflection of light (not source of light.)
Seat = resting place of Wisdom (not source of Wisdom, not Wisdom Himself.)
Tower = high point (high point in the line of David. In fact, the only genetic connection between David and Jesus Christ.)
Ark = something used for carrying. (Noah's Ark carried all those who would restore life on Earth. The Ark of the Covenant carried the tablets of the Law. Mary carried Jesus Christ, the fulfillment of the Law.)
All of these titles speak of Mary only with reference to Christ, who IS the Light, who IS Wisdom, who IS the ultimate Son of David, who IS our Lord and our God.
That is how poetry works. IN this case, the praise of an ancillary figure (literally, a handmaid) in order to give honor and glory to a principal figure (Jesus Christ.)
A handmaid. This Queen is a handmaid. Get it?
"All generations will call me blessed." The Litany of Loreto an excellent example of doing just that.
Credo in Deum Patrem omnipotentem;
Creatorem caeli et terrae.
Et in Jesum Christum,
Filium eius unicum, Dominum nostrum;
qui conceptus est
de Spiritu Sancto,
natus ex Maria virgine;
passus sub Pontio Pilato,
crucifixus, mortuus, et sepultus;
descendit ad inferos;
tertia die resurrexit a mortuis;
ascendit ad caelos;
sedet ad dexteram Dei Patris omnipotentis;
inde venturus est
iudicare vivos et mortuos.
Credo in Spiritum Sanctum;
sanctam ecclesiam catholicam;
sanctorum communionem;
remissionem peccatorum;
carnis resurrectionem;
vitam aeternam. Amen.
In English:
I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ,
his only Son, our Lord.
He was conceived
by the power of the Holy Spirit,
and born of the Virgin Mary,
He suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
He descended into hell.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
he will come again
to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy Catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen
“”Trying to kid?” (Pause for rolling my eyes a bit.) I made it very clear that God alone is to be adored.”
No, you said that Mary isn’t included in Catholic prayers all that much, and that the focus is on Jesus Christ. In the link I gave you, Christ is only called the Lamb of God and mentioned a few times. Mary receives more than a dozen names, each one more blasphemous than the first. Sounds like adoration too.
“That’s why you have passages like this:
1 Kings 2:19”
1Ki 2:21 (21) And she said, Let Abishag the Shunammite be given to Adonijah thy brother to wife.
The immediate result of this dialogue is that Adonijah was put to death. Let’s hope that if Mary really does have the divine attributes and can therefore hear our prayers, that she does not petition on our behalf like Bathsheba for Adonijah.
“The King of Israel gives the Queen Mother a place of honor at his right hand. Got that?”
That would be Jesus Christ:
Act_2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Heaven isn’t a scaled up Oriental court, complete with hundreds of concubines to please God, just FYI. The Hebrews were never operating on some divine model of Kingship. This was the fashion of the oriental monarchies seen everywhere in those days, all pagan. In fact, having a king in the first place was a concession made to the Hebrews who wanted to copy the patterns of other people.
1Sa 8:6-8 But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD. (7) And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them. (8) According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt even unto this day, wherewith they have forsaken me, and served other gods, so do they also unto thee.
Furthermore, Mary being the mother of Christ gave her no special authority in heaven. In fact, she is more blessed by faith in Christ than she is in childbirth:
Luk 11:27-28 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. (28) But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.
Luk 8:20-21 And it was told him by certain which said, Thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to see thee. (21) And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.
“It’s not that she has independent power.”
Your Popes disagree.
“Mary is the intermediary through whom is distributed unto us this immense treasure of mercies gathered by God, for mercy and truth were created by Jesus Christ. Thus as no man goeth to the Father but by the Son, so no man goeth to Christ but by His Mother.” (Vatican Website: Encyclical of Pope Leo 13th on the Rosary, Octobri Mense, Pope Leo 13th, 1903-1914)
“The foundation of all our confidence is found in the Blessed Virgin Mary. God has committed to her the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is His will: that we obtain everything through Mary.” (Ven. Pope Pius IX)
All the Saints have a great devotion to Our Lady: no grace comes from Heaven without passing through her hands. We cannot go into a house without speaking to the doorkeeper. Well, the Holy Virgin is the doorkeeper of Heaven.
St. John Mary Vianney
All gifts, virtues, and graces of the Holy Ghost are administered by the hands of Mary to whomsoever she desires, when she desires, and in the manner she desires, and to whatever degree she desires.
St. Bernardine of Siena
She sounds pretty well all powerful here. God Himself bows to her will. Let’s see what the scripture actually says:
Dan_4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
“I’ll bet you knew that.”
Quick! Call the Pope and let him know!
You can’t address Ruth as full of grace because she isn’t.
No Catholic asks Mary to “have mercy on us”. None. That prayer can be addressed to God alone. We ask Mary to pray for us. Only God can be petitioned for mercy.
The saints here prayers because God permits it. It’s nothing to do with their own abilities or powers. If you think that’s impossible, you will have to explain away well documented cases, including St.Pio of Pietralcina andSt Martin de Porres, who heard prayers from afar and read hearts while still in this world. Do some research before you dismiss the mysterious and wonderful ways in which God is glorified.
“When He says “salvation is from the Jews,” he means that the Jews, as cooperators in God’s plan, had a role to play to bring people to the point of receiving the Good News of the Gospel.”
Oh, so I’m sure you’ll produce for us right away the Jewish litany for Abraham. Oh Abraham the holiest, Abraham the purest, Root of David, Father of Fathers, Help for Jews, Stayer of God’s hand... err, wait, before I get carried away, mind posting some links to Jewish devotions to Abraham?
“In the same way, I might ask you, or my mother, “
Why would you ask YOUR mother? She’s not the all-holy ever virgin who has received all grace from the Holy Spirit with the total right to dispense with it how she wills. She also probably isn’t omnipresent or omniscient like Mary. She’s just a regular HUMAN after all.
After all, wasn’t Mary the first intercessor at the Wedding of Cana? Didn’t she ask/tell him “They have no wine.”?????
Always our intercessor — not a member of the Trinity.
She passes our needs on to Jesus and there are always three answers from him “Yes”, “No” and “Not now.”
So, I ask, why don’t you let Mary help YOU?
***********************************************
I used to be catholic-I left the church over crap like this.
NOTHING in the Bible speaks about praying to dead people.
Mary was alive at the wedding, not dead.
Mary was an obedient soul, but right now she cannot hear any prayers at all, She sleeps and will be raised with the rest of us.
there is not a switchboard of saint interceding for anyone in prayer.
The ONLY prayers heard by God the Father are those made in the Name of Jesus. and that’s in the Bible.
You cannot show me ONE Biblical example of a living human praying to a dead one. we pray to God, not men.
Catholic tradition is not equal to scripture. its just made up out of thin air. Purgatory, papal infallibility, saints interceding in prayer are all just made up fairy tales. All among the various reasons I’m no longer in the RCC.
” Only God can be petitioned for mercy.”
Petitioned THROUGH Mary, right?
“Mary is the intermediary through whom is distributed unto us this immense treasure of mercies gathered by God, for mercy and truth were created by Jesus Christ. Thus as no man goeth to the Father but by the Son, so no man goeth to Christ but by His Mother.” (Vatican Website: Encyclical of Pope Leo 13th on the Rosary, Octobri Mense, Pope Leo 13th, 1903-1914)
“The foundation of all our confidence is found in the Blessed Virgin Mary. God has committed to her the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is His will: that we obtain everything through Mary.” (Ven. Pope Pius IX)
All the Saints have a great devotion to Our Lady: no grace comes from Heaven without passing through her hands. We cannot go into a house without speaking to the doorkeeper. Well, the Holy Virgin is the doorkeeper of Heaven.
St. John Mary Vianney
All gifts, virtues, and graces of the Holy Ghost are administered by the hands of Mary to whomsoever she desires, when she desires, and in the manner she desires, and to whatever degree she desires.
St. Bernardine of Siena
She opens the abyss of God’s mercy to whomsoever she wills, when she wills, and as she wills, so that there is no sinner however great who is lost if Mary protects him . . . All men: past, present, and to come, should look upon Mary as the means and negotiator of the salvation of all ages.
St. Bernard
No thanks, I’ll stick with Jesus Christ.
“The saints here prayers because God permits it. It’s nothing to do with their own abilities or powers. “
If God “allows” it, He is giving them the power to hear and comprehend (in every language) the prayer of every Catholic on Earth, thus giving them, by definition, omnipresence and omniscience.
Credo in Deum Patrem omnipotentem;
Creatorem caeli et terrae.
Et in Jesum Christum,
Filium eius unicum, Dominum nostrum;
qui conceptus est
de Spiritu Sancto,
natus ex Maria virgine;
passus sub Pontio Pilato,
crucifixus, mortuus, et sepultus;
descendit ad inferos;
tertia die resurrexit a mortuis;
ascendit ad caelos;
sedet ad dexteram Dei Patris omnipotentis;
inde venturus est
iudicare vivos et mortuos.
Credo in Spiritum Sanctum;
sanctam ecclesiam catholicam;
sanctorum communionem;
remissionem peccatorum;
carnis resurrectionem;
vitam aeternam. Amen.
In English:
I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ,
his only Son, our Lord.
He was conceived
by the power of the Holy Spirit,
and born of the Virgin Mary,
He suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
He descended into hell.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
he will come again
to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy Catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.