Posted on 06/19/2013 1:00:37 PM PDT by Gluteus Maximus
Edited on 06/19/2013 1:53:31 PM PDT by Admin Moderator. [history]
THIS is in the Gospel:
“And the angel being come in, said unto to her: Hail, full grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.”
-Luke 1:28
So’s this:
Luk 11:27-28 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. (28) But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.
Mar 3:32-35 And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee. (33) And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren? (34) And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! (35) For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.
“Are you sure the Rosary is unscriptural?”
Pretty sure:
From the Secret of the Rosary
“Having decided to ask St. Dominic’s advice about her spiritual life, she made her confession to him. For penance he gave her one Rosary to say and advised her to say it every day. She excused herself, saying that she had her regular exercises, that she made the Stations of Rome every day, that she wore sackcloth as well as a hair-shirt, that she gave herself the discipline several times a week, that she often fasted and did other penances. Saint Dominic urged her over and over again to take his advice and say the Rosary, but she would not hear of it. She left the confessional, horrified at the methods of this new spiritual director who had tried so hard to persuade her to take up a devotion for which she had no taste.
Later on, when she was at prayer she fell into ecstasy and had a vision of her soul appearing before the Supreme Judge. Saint Michael put all her penances and to her prayers on one side of the scale and all her sins and imperfections on the other. The tray of her good works were greatly outweighed by that of her sins and imperfections.
Filled with alarm, she cried out for mercy, imploring the help of the Blessed Virgin, her gracious advocate, who took the one and only Rosary she had said for her penance and dropped it on the tray of her good works. This one Rosary was so heavy that it weighed more than all her sins as well as her good works. Our Lady then reproved her for having refused to follow the counsel of her servant Dominic and for not saying the Rosary every day.”
“The psalms are filled with repetitions.”
There aren’t any Psalms that are exactly the same, nor are Psalms meant to replace your normal prayers, which are not repetitious. The number of times you repeat a prayer has no effect on the God who hears the very first time. Of course, Mary doesn’t hear you at all, since whether you say it 3,000 times or one time, she can’t be in more than one place at one time to hear it.
I’ll leave the counting to the Blessed Virgin Mary and God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit
BTW, when you were baptized Catholic an indeliable mark was left on your soul. You still are and always will be a Catholic. Please sit down with a priest and get your questions answered.
Now — back to the Rosary — try saying a scriptural rosary with one line of Scripture along with each Hail Mary. It’s fantastic because you are thinking about the Scripture while saying the Hail Mary. Next Hail Mary — next event/line in that Scripture passage or a parallel. (Mostly in the Gospels)
True although there's ample repetition. Doesn't change the fact that according to Scripture, Jesus' prayer and the heavenly prayer in Rev 4:8 are "exactly the same."
nor are Psalms meant to replace your normal prayers, which are not repetitious.
Without intending to be rude, do you know what "normal" prayer is for me? Are you privy to the groanings of the Spirit within me? To the passages of scripture to which he leads me in prayer?
The number of times you repeat a prayer has no effect on the God who hears the very first time.
On that we agree. Are you not, however, presuming to know the purpose for which I'm praying? Maybe I want to bask in God's presence so that He can have effect on me. Or maybe I want to ponder an aspect of the Lord in prayer instead of thinking about it more intellectually in a setting like Bible study.
Mary doesn’t hear you at all, since whether you say it 3,000 times or one time, she can’t be in more than one place at one time to hear it.
How do you know that bilocation is necessary? Rev 5:8 indicates that holy ones in heaven offer the prayers of the saints on earth. In Rev 6:9-10 the martyrs are aware of happenings on earth, as are multitudes in Rev 19:1-8. Moreover, Jesus told us that those in heaven rejoice over a repentant sinner (Lk 15:7).
How does all this happen? That's God's business, not mine. I believe what Christ said in Jn 17:22 about sharing his glory with those close to him, what 2 Pt 1:4 says about becoming "partakers of the divine nature," and what Paul told the Galatians (2:20) that it was no longer "I who live but Christ who lives in me." If it's true on earth, how much more so in heaven?
Peace be with you.
“Will you ever learn that your works cannot please God and save you from your sins?”
And talk is cheap. Saying you are “saved” by some faith and then using that to beat good folks you don’t even know over the head is definitely a work that isn’t done to try to please God.
I neither care about nor respect the bloviations of “holy posters” or the pope or whatever other talker. If somebody takes care of their own, helps their neighbors and does the right thing when they can, I recon the Good Lord won’t mind that they say the rosary or go to the “wrong church” or eat the wrong kind of meat on Fridays.
With all your holy teaching condemning others who are just trying to do right the best way they know how, I recon the Good Lord is going to look at you real close. If saying some Hail Mary’s helps some folks get through this life and helps bring them closer to God and DOING right, I won’t act like a misbehaving atheist and mock them for doing what helps them do right.
If you aren’t RC and these folks want to talk about how whatver the Pope says affects them in whatever way, why don’t you let them be. It’s their burden, not yours.
“On that we agree. Are you not, however, presuming to know the purpose for which I’m praying?”
Presumably, it’s this:
“Filled with alarm, she cried out for mercy, imploring the help of the Blessed Virgin, her gracious advocate, who took the one and only Rosary she had said for her penance and dropped it on the tray of her good works. This one Rosary was so heavy that it weighed more than all her sins as well as her good works. Our Lady then reproved her for having refused to follow the counsel of her servant Dominic and for not saying the Rosary every day.”
For what other purpose would there be than what the Roman Catholic church teaches? Do you pray the Rosary as a work to receive graces and salvation from sin, or are you praying, as you claim, to exalt God and other pious reasons? There is a difference between meditating on the scripture, and prayer to a human being with the apparent aim of obtaining spiritual favor. The angels in heaven aren’t praying “Holy Holy Holy” forever, they are in constant praise of God forever and ever. And certainly not for the purpose of obtaining spiritual graces. But, rather, as they say, because God is worthy to receive it. To compare our prayer to the eternal praise of Angels simply does not work, though obviously prayer can also contain praise as well as wants.
“True although there’s ample repetition.”
Give an example, then.
“How do you know that bilocation is necessary?”
Bilocation? I don’t mean to be in two places at once. I mean omnipresence, since she must be everywhere in order to be with every Catholic believer in the world as they repeat their 3,000th Rosary.
Keep in mind that your church does not teach that Mary is receiving a prayer transmission. It teaches that Mary is actually present with the believer since she is somehow sharing in the divine attribute of omnipresence.
“Mary is taken up body and soul into the glory of Heaven, and with God and in God she is Queen of Heaven and earth. And is she really so remote from us? The contrary is true. Precisely because she is with God and in God, she is very close to each one of us. While she lived on this earth she could only be close to a few people. Being in God, who is close to us, actually, “within” all of us, Mary shares in this closeness of God. Being in God and with God, she is close to each one of us, knows our hearts, can hear our prayers, can help us with her motherly kindness and has been given to us, as the Lord said, precisely as a “mother” to whom we can turn at every moment. She always listens to us, she is always close to us, and being Mother of the Son, participates in the power of the Son and in his goodness. We can always entrust the whole of our lives to this Mother, who is not far from any one of us.”
“Papa” Francis speaks of the “spiritual presence” of Mary:
April 28, 2013
Regina Caeli
“I would like to entrust the confirmandi and all of you to Our Lady. The Virgin Mary teaches us what it means to live in the Holy Spirit and what it means to welcome the newness of God in our life. She conceived Jesus by the work of the Spirit, and every Christian, each one of us, is called to welcome the Word of God, to welcome Jesus in ourselves and then bring him to everyone. Mary invoked the Spirit with the Apostles in the upper room: every time that we come together in prayer, we are supported by the SPIRITUAL PRESENCE of the Mother of Jesus, to receive the gift of the Spirit and to have the ability to bear witness to the risen Jesus. I say this in a special way to you who have received Confirmation today: may Mary help you to be attentive to that which the Lord asks of you, and always to live and to walk according to the Holy Spirit!” (Pope Francis, April 28, 2013
Regina Caeli, Capitalization mine)
Not only that, but she must be privy to every language in the world, as well as being able to judge the heart of the believer, to know whether they are really “meditating” on it or just repeating it. Not only that, but each time you do it, she is literally receiving a rose:
“After he had been gone a long time the Superior sent another Friar to fetch him, and he found him in his room bathed in a heavenly light facing Our Lady who had two angels with her. Beautiful roses kept issuing from his mouth at each Hail Mary; the angels took them one by one, placing them on Our Lady’s head, and she smilingly accepted them.
Finally two other friars who had been sent to find out what happened to the first two saw the same lovely scene, and Our Lady did not go away until the whole Rosary had been said.
So the complete Rosary is a large crown of roses and the Rosary of five decades is a little wreath of flowers or a small crown of heavenly roses which we place on the heads of Jesus and Mary. The rose is the queen of flowers, and so the Rosary is the rose of all devotions and it is therefore the most important one.” (The Secret of the Rosary again)
I can’t do anything but regard this as the highest form of idolatry, designed to exalt a human being to the level of a God. Do you really think Mary is up there receiving hundreds of millions of roses, and keeping count of them, so she can weigh them at the end of your days to hopefully outweigh your sins and save you from the terrible judge Jesus Christ? (That is how Christ is depicted, in contrast to Mary who rushes in to save you from the wrath of Christ.)
“Rev 5:8 indicates that holy ones in heaven offer the prayers of the saints on earth. “
This image is a direct copy of the Temple Service that used to occur on Earth. The Priest would offer up incense as the Jews prayed in the courts of the temple, as incense symbolizes prayer in that it is a sweet smell to the Lord that ascends up to the heaven. There’s no reason to think that is different in heaven, and considering the highly symbolic nature of Revelation, it is highly doubtful that Mary transubstantiates all the roses and prayers she receives into incense and then offers it up to God. It’s also worth noting that it is the “four and twenty elders,” not all the thousands of saints of Rome offering up your prayer to God.
“In Rev 6:9-10 the martyrs are aware of happenings on earth, as are multitudes in Rev 19:1-8.”
Rev 6:9-10 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: (10) And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Presumably they are aware that judgment had not been taken out. But do they know how many times little Molly prayed to them for grace and salvation? Probably not.
“Moreover, Jesus told us that those in heaven rejoice over a repentant sinner (Lk 15:7).”
The ones spoken of here are angels, as we see three verses later.
Luk 15:10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.
And angels aren’t omnipresent either, capable of being on Earth and hearing your prayer, while at the same time being elsewhere. Here’s one who was held up by the Devil that rules over Persia:
Dan 10:12-13 Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words. (13) But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
It does not logically follow that the Angels somehow knew personally that a sinner repented.
Also, look at the language and the context of the verse:
“Luk 15:6-8 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost. (7) I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance. (8) Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?
Do you really take this as meaning that the Angels are aware of every single human being on Earth, and are having a party every time one repents? Which, presumably, happens millions of times a day.
This is just as goofy as the idea of Mary receiving a rose every time you say a Hail Mary!
“How does all this happen? That’s God’s business, not mine.”
I’ll tell you how it doesn’t happen. God does not give human beings or angels the ability to be present with the believer while also in heaven.
“If somebody takes care of their own, helps their neighbors and does the right thing when they can, I recon the Good Lord won’t mind that they say the rosary or go to the “wrong church” or eat the wrong kind of meat on Fridays.”
NEWSFLASH
Your works cannot save you, nor bring you favor with God.
Isa_64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
Job 15:15-16 Behold, he putteth no trust in his saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight. (16) How much more abominable and filthy is man, which drinketh iniquity like water?
Ecc_7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.
Jer_17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Psa 130:3 If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand?
Eph 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.
“I recon the Good Lord is going to look at you real close.”
Good thing I’m not saved by my works, but by grace. Same for you, assuming you believe in Christ.
To you and any Catholics who may be following the thread, Fr Mitch is talking about Pius XII this evening and 2 new documentaries follow his program. A great night to enjoy Catholic TV :)
Thanks for this. But do you agree with the main point - i.e. that the Pope said that counting prayers, as in spiritual bouquets and by extension the rosary itself, is heretical?
It seems inescapable to me.
If counting the number of rosaries in a "spiritual bouquet" is heretical, then surely counting the number of Hail Marys in each individual rosary said must likewise constitute pelagian heresy.
Where do I err?
I see no way around the conclusion. I'm actually stunned and feel gut-punched by this. The Pope really laughed at people who presented him with all those rosaries. My heart aches for my parents and the millions of devout Catholics like them who pray the rosary regularly, including for the Pope. He really smacked those people down hard - essentially all of my Irish ancestors whose lives really revolved around the rosary.
I can only conclude that the Pope took such a harsh position in order to make an important point about post-Vatican II theology, namely (I surmise) that established simple devotions like the rosary are "old fashioned" and not in keeping with the spirit of the Second Vatican Council, and that indeed they are in and of themselves heretical and should be dispensed with.
But that's not what the Pope said. He said that "counting prayers" is pelagianism and thus heretical. This was clear in his scoffing at the "spiritual bouquet" that was offered him by hundreds of the pious.
My point is that if "counting prayers" is wrong in the context of a few thousand rosaries that make up a "spiritual bouquet", then certainly counting each individual Hail Mary and Our Father and Glory Be that make up a single rosary must likewise constitute plagiarism.
It's really very shocking. Even though I'm not a Catholic, I grew up with the simple devotion of the rosary and I feel terribly hurt by being told by this Pope that all of that was not only in vain but was indeed heretical.
I see no way around the conclusion.
Indeed there is. As I said, you aren't privy to the ways God leads me in prayer or my "aims," although you're free to presume anything you like. God is my judge :)
Give an example
Are you not familiar with Ps 136 and it's repetitive "for his mercy endures forever?"
she must be everywhere in order to be with every Catholic believer in the world
Not if we have the unity Christ spoke of in Jn 17:22, "that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one..." Not if Hb 12:22-24 is true that we've come to the heavenly city of angels in festal gathering and the assembly of the firstborn in heaven. As scripture says, Christ--who lives in us--is the mediator. As a member of the body of Christ and a temple of the Holy Spirit, do you not share in some small way in new covenant mediation when Christ works through you? If this weren't so, why would you pray for anyone but yourself? Why would you ask others to pray for you? Just as we do this for one another on earth, Catholics believe those who've gone to heaven before us can assist us in similar fashion with their prayers.
I’ll tell you how it doesn’t happen...
Believe as you wish. And I'll do the same. Maybe I"ll look at the rest of your post later, time for good Catholic TV right now. Peace be with you :)
“Are you not familiar with Ps 136 and it’s repetitive “for his mercy endures forever?””
Each sentence is difference and has a different meaning, though they conclude the same. Got anything better?
“Not if we have the unity Christ spoke of in Jn 17:22, “that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one...”
But this is true right now, not just in heaven. So it does not follow that we will have the divine attributes of omnipresence after we arrive in heaven, instead of having it right now. This verse also does not teach the pantheism of the believers. The Holy Spirit dwells in us and is called both the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of the Father in other verses. God is the only one that is omnipresent. We abide in Christ through faith, and not through literally being present in heaven while on Earth.
“Not if Hb 12:22-24 is true that we’ve come to the heavenly city of angels in festal gathering and the assembly of the firstborn in heaven.”
Paul here is speaking of the new dispensation that believers have come into, contrasting them with the Jews who could not “touch the mountain” in verse 20. It doesn’t literally mean that there is some part of us that is present in Zion.
“As scripture says, Christ—who lives in us—is the mediator. As a member of the body of Christ and a temple of the Holy Spirit, do you not share in some small way in new covenant mediation when Christ works through you?”
A new covenant mediation that makes you omnipresent? Heck, I don’t even see any justification in scripture that says we have a mandate to be the mediator between God and man. That’s Christ’s job. And the intercessor within us is the Holy Spirit, not Mary or ourselves.
Rom_8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
“If this weren’t so, why would you pray for anyone but yourself? Why would you ask others to pray for you?”
Because when any two people agree on anything, God will answer?
Mat_18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
I’ve experienced this many times. Whenever I ask a Christian friend to pray with me, my prayers are always answered, and miraculous ones too. It does not follow from this, though, that we become Divine Intercessors, capable of hearing the prayers of all the people in the world. The reason we have fellowship with one another is so that we can support each other. Why forsake the assembly for someone who is at rest in heaven who can’t even hear you?
“Believe as you wish. And I’ll do the same.”
Yes, but your belief that mankind can share in the divine attributes is blasphemous.
You have a very valid point.
I remember JPII walking in the Vatican garden reciting the rosary and he very much was a proponent of that prayer.
However, fingering the beads of a rosary during the prayer is not equivalent to consciously counting the Hail Marys. I don’t know, but perhaps we’re splitting hairs.
Prayer is mainly in the mind and not the mouth.
I respectfully disagree. Christ's blood doesn't merely "cover over" the stink of sin. Rather, it allows the Holy Spirit to re-make us into God's "image and likeness" as Adam was before the Fall. "Image" means form, "likeness" means substance. We have a new substance with the Holy Spirit. We re-gain the attributes of God. He "makes us to shine like the sun." We truly are "new creatures" in HIm.
Christ's sacrifice not only covered over the cost of Original Sin, but actually makes it possible for us to really be transformed into the holy ones of God.
“I respectfully disagree. Christ’s blood doesn’t merely “cover over” the stink of sin. Rather, it allows the Holy Spirit to re-make us into God’s “image and likeness” as Adam was before the Fall. “Image” means form, “likeness” means substance. We have a new substance with the Holy Spirit. We re-gain the attributes of God. He “makes us to shine like the sun.” We truly are “new creatures” in HIm.
Christ’s sacrifice not only covered over the cost of Original Sin, but actually makes it possible for us to really be transformed into the holy ones of God.”
You’re seriously arguing that Adam was omnipresent and God-like in the garden! You even have him shining like the sun! God does not have a body that we are a projection of. We are not the image of His form, because a Spirit has no bones or flesh that can give it form. To be made in the likeness and image of God can only apply to the soul, in its nature and disposition, though certainly not exact, otherwise it would be impossible for us to sin. We were innocent, though we still fell as any of the angels did through willful disobedience. None of this can possibly imply that mankind, once exalted, will become Little Gods.
Isa_43:10 ... before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
We are not equal to God as He is infinite. But that doesn’t mean that we don’t share in His substance.
I never count prayers. Unless I fall asleep saying the chaplet of Divine Mercy and try to remember which decade I was on and if my fingers are still in that place.
LOl!
“We are not equal to God as He is infinite. But that doesn’t mean that we don’t share in His substance.”
By definition, if one shares in His substance and becomes omnipresent, one is infinite just like God.
That doesn't follow at all. A round stone might share in the substance of the Earth, but it's not as great as the Earth. Adam was made in God's "image and likeness" but he was never infinite like God.
In the same way, God transforms our souls (back) into His "image and likeness" as we were before the Fall.
That's nice, but it doesn't address the question. The Pope just said that "counting prayers" in the sense of offering a "spiritual bouquet" of 3,500 rosaries "heretical." Is he correct about that? What do you think?
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.