Posted on 06/25/2013 3:08:30 AM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
PING
grace and peace
Great preacher, but he was dead wrong on his take about free-will.
But then again, he was a Calvinist. Like all Calvinists, he had more respect for John Calvin and his teachings then he did for Jesus and His teachings.
As for me and my house, we shall follow the one true God, Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior, not John Calvin and his misguided teachings.
“But then again, he was a Calvinist. Like all Calvinists, he had more respect for John Calvin and his teachings then he did for Jesus and His teachings.”
Joh 6:64-65 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. (65) And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
“As for me and my house, we shall follow the one true God, Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior, not John Calvin and his misguided teachings.”
So Martin Luther, all of the Reformists, John Knox and all the Scottish divines who brought revival to that country, Spurgeon, Matthew Henry, Jonathan Edwards, George Whitefield, countless others... weren’t following Jesus Christ!?
You’re on it, brother!
Joh 6:64-65 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. (65) And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
“Not if and when they put so much emphasis on Calvinism that they make others think they are lost if they don’t agree with him.”
Instead of talking about vague “theys,” you should stick with who you are talking to or about. Spurgeon certainly wasn’t of that opinion, and neither am I. Otherwise we’d both be condemning ourselves, having begun with your opinion, and only later coming to this truth.
“However, what he means is we are all chosen, not just some.”
That’s directly contradicted by the scripture you didn’t comment on. The Jews there weren’t chosen. Christ was specifically explaining why it was they did not believe. It says, “there are some of you that believe not... Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.” How is it a “therefore” if Christ was affirming that they had indeed been given it from the Father? His statements make no sense with how you read it. Therefore, they do not believe, not because they received it from the Father to believe and then rejected it; they do not believe because “no man can come unto me, except it is given from above.”
The same is true in many other places. For example, according to you, the Pharisees did not believe and therefore ceased to be the sheep of God. But the scripture says they did not believe, BECAUSE they were not His sheep.
Joh_10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
According to you, the Gentiles who heard the preaching of the Apostles believed, and were therefore ordained to eternal life. But the scripture reverses the order:
Act_13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
And most terribly, you make the election of God to be of no effect, since all are elected to the same blessings, but the power of God is ineffectual to bring anyone to Christ. It must be improved upon by the individual’s personal righteousness. The whole golden line of salvation, therefore, from the call, to the justification, to the glorification, is completely false:
Rom_8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
“I do not think Jesus was telling Nicodemus that he had to be one of the chosen.”
Certainly He does, because the Holy Spirit is a free agent in salvation:
Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
The Spirit blows “where He listeth,” according to His own will, and not the will of man.
“Gee, it sounds like God wants all to come to repentance, not just certain individuals chosen above others, but ALL...because when you claim that only the elect are chosen, then you also claim that many were created for the sole purpose of going to a hell that was created for Satan”
It says “to us-ward,” who have received the promise, distinguished from the scoffers mentioned earlier:
2Pe 3:3-4 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, (4) And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
And who are also described as having been “appointed” unto condemnation in the previous epistle.
1Pe 2:7-8 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, (8) And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
The same in Jude:
Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
And by Paul, the vessels which are ‘fitted for destruction,” in contrast to the vessels of mercy chosen before the foundation of the world:
Rom 9:20-22 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? (21) Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? (22) What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
And certainly Christ here prays only for those given to Him out of the world, and not these scoffers who ‘crept in unawares.’
Joh_17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
So we see that the vessels of wrath are indeed “appointed” to their condemnation, though it is incorrect to say that God is the author of their sin. We affirm that no man is saved unless God has snatched Him. And we affirm that no man is condemned because God made them to do evil. Rather, God passed them by “to leave in the common misery into which they have willfully plunged themselves, and not to bestow upon them saving faith and the grace of conversion; but, permitting them in His just judgment to follow their own ways, at last, for the declaration of His justice, to condemn and punish them forever, not only on account of their unbelief, but also for all their other sins.” (Canons of Dort, First Head Article 15)
This is because man, by nature, does not understand or seek after God.
Rom 3:10-12 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: (11) There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. (12) They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
One would think that if you were such a stickler for “all,” that you would take it seriously when “all” and “none” are capable of doing what you claim you did.
So, if “all” are gone astray and do not seek after God, how did you come to seek after God? Was it a spark of goodness that you possessed which no man else did?
If one has a free-will, as a Christian why then do they free choose to sin? Not a sermon. Just a thought.
True, but not all repent. The power to repent must be granted to us by God:
Act_11:18 When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, "Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life."
BTW-You may wish to look up the word "Gee".
If we leave it to the sovereignty of God, then it is possible the sovereignty of God looks at choice and before time selects those who have responded to Him. He then ensures their selection of Him by opening their hearts. "Those He foreknew He predestined."
Or it could be something else entirely unknown to us.
I was picking which sweet corn plants to thin in my garden the other day. I did have a rough guidance of 8 inches apart or so, but pretty regularly I'd choose two side by side strong plants over the one 8 inches apart.
Why? It just felt right to me.
“If we leave it to the sovereignty of God, then it is possible the sovereignty of God looks at choice and before time selects those who have responded to Him. He then ensures their selection of Him by opening their hearts.”
That way of thinking isn’t logical. So God foresees that they will choose Him... yet ensures their selection. Didn’t He already know they were going to choose Him in the first place? So why ensure what you foreknew was already going to happen? The scripture is quite clear that faith is the gift of God:
1Co_12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
Php 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
Therefore, if one wants to hold two contrary opinions, it is easy to say “We chose God, but then He insures that we choose Him,” with a straight face, while still holding to Free-will’s ability to choose righteousness for itself.
Your position breaks down even further when we read into how men are chosen or not chosen. In Romans 9, we read that Jacob is chosen over Esau before either child had done “good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.” If it is based on their choices previously foreseen, then it does not follow that anyone is “elected” or that it is “of him that calleth”; that is, ordained to salvation so that the call is effectual. The very concept of election and of a call not according to “him who willeth or runneth, but God who sheweth mercy” (Rom 9:16) requires that it is done before either child performs “good or evil.” Since if God merely foresees that they would do good, this is an act that He foresees will occur after birth. It is the cause of his predestinating them to salvation, because he knows that they will willingly do it. So why bother telling us to begin with that he predestinated us before they had done “good or evil,” if the decision was made because of the “good” or “evil” that they would do? And it cannot be of him that “calleth,” because it is by the man who righteously responds to the call. The call itself has no power. Since, according to you, God calls everyone, but it is ineffectual in and of itself to save anyone. Man must improve upon that call, so that in the last analysis we can only say that one man believed because he was righteous enough to respond to the call, whereas the other justly dies because he refuses it. They had their fair chance, though a CHANCE is all that it ever was.
But we know that the scripture instead teaches that if the same effectual call is given to both Jacob and Esau, that it must result in salvation. Because “whom he did predestinate, them he also called; and whom he called, he justified” (Rom 8:30). He did not call, and then predestinate those who responded. The predestination is the direct cause of the call in the first place. None of this is mere chance.
It is more logical to conclude from the scriptures that God predestinates what He foreknows, which means that nothing happens without His permission or, in the case of the elect, His working.
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
What He foreknows is not driven by mere chance, but rather what He foreknows is established according to His will and purpose before the world began. And why is that? Because when man is left to his own devices, he will always choose the evil. So if God does not elect anyone, then all will be damned, and justly so.
“Now, since on God’s own testimony, men are ‘flesh’, they can savour of nothing but the flesh; therefore ‘free-will can avail only to sin. And if, while the Spirit of God is calling and teaching among them, they go from bad to worse, what could they do when left to themselves, without the Spirit of God? Your [Erasmus] observation that Moses is speaking of the men of that age is not to the point at all. The same is true of all men, for all are ‘flesh’; as Christ says, ‘That which is born of the flesh is flesh’ (john 3:6) How grave a defect this is, He Himself there teaches, when he says: ‘Except a man be born again, he cannot enter the kingdom of God (v. 5)...I call a man ungodly if he is without the Spirit of God; for Scripture says that the Spirit is given to justify the ungodly. As Christ distinguished the Spirit from the flesh, saying: “that which is born of the flesh is flesh’, and adds that which is born of the flesh cannot enter the kingdom of God’, it obviously follows that whatever is flesh is ungodly, under God’s wrath, and a stranger to His kingdom. And if it is a stranger to God’s kingdom and Spirit, it follows of necessity that it is under the kingdom and spirit of Satan. For there is no middle kingdom between the kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Satan, which are ever at war with each other.” (Martin Luther, On the Bondage of the Will)
As an "ism" follower, you would rather follow the teachings of a man who was born 1500 years after Christ was crucified. Instead of following the teachings of the man we are called to follow, the One crucified. God Himself.
An "ism" follower is a person who follows the teachings of men instead of our Creator, Savior, and Author of our faith, our Lord Jesus Christ.
You would rather hang your salvation on the false doctrine that God created some of us for salvation, and others for damnation. I disagree.
I do not believe God is cosmic rapist. We are not "Chatty Cathy" dolls that He created. He created us with a free will, so that we would love him willingly.
That is what this whole life thing in the world is about. One chance to love Him or reject Him. Those who accept His love and love Him back will receive the righteousness of Christ. Those who reject His love, won't. "Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, Nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous" Psalm 1:5
If God did not want us to have free will to chose or reject Him, then He would have no reason to make the world with sinful men to populate it. If we are chosen with no choice, then He had no reason to become a man who would be brutalized and murdered on a cross for sins He did not commit. After all if, as Calvin taught, we have no choice in the matter of whether or not we would love Him, then there was no reason for Him to do all He did.
That being said, the best way I can debate your misguided thinking is to prove you are wrong by using the scriptures that speak of man's free will in choosing to follow God, or to reject God.
What follows are various Scriptures from both the Old and New Testaments where the Word of God tells us that man has a free will to accept or reject His love, and ultimately Salvation.
“As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a loyal heart and with a willing mind; for the LORD searches all hearts and understands all the intent of the thoughts. If you seek Him, He will be found by you; but if you forsake Him, He will cast you off forever. 1Chron28:9
"If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it." (Gen. 4:6-7)
"I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live." (Deut. 30:19)
"And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.” (Josh. 24:15)
“Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; Put away the evil of your doings from before My eyes. Cease to do evil, Learn to do good; Seek justice, Rebuke the oppressor; Defend the fatherless, Plead for the widow.“Come now, and let us reason together,” Says the LORD, “Though your sins are like scarlet, They shall be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They shall be as wool. If you are willing and obedient, You shall eat the good of the land; But if you refuse and rebel, You shall be devoured by the sword”; For the mouth of the LORD has spoken." (Isa. 1:16-20)
"Seek the LORD while He may be found ,Call upon Him while He is near. Let the wicked forsake his way, And the unrighteous man his thoughts; Let him return to the LORD, And He will have mercy on him; And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon." (Isa. 55:6-7)
"Sow for yourselves righteousness; Reap in mercy; Break up your fallow ground, For it is time to seek the LORD, Till He comes and rains righteousness on you." (Hos.10:12)
“Now therefore, speak to the men of Judah and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, ‘Thus says the LORD: “Behold, I am fashioning a disaster and devising a plan against you. Return now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good." (Jer. 18:11)
“Now you shall say to this people, ‘Thus says the LORD: “Behold, I set before you the way of life and the way of death." (Jer. 21:8)
"Now therefore, amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the LORD your God; then the LORD will relent concerning the doom that He has pronounced against you." (Jer. 26:13)
“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord GOD. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord GOD. “Therefore turn and live." (Ezk. 18:30-32)
"But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily to God; yes, let every one turn from his evil way andfrom the violence that is in his hands. Who can tell if God will turn and relent, and turn away from His fierce anger, so that we may not perish? Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God relented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it." (Jon. 3:8-10)
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!" (Matt. 23:37)
"I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish." (Lk. 13:3)
“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”(Jn. 3:18-21)
"And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation."(Acts 2:40)
"Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him." (Acts 10:34-35)
"Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead." (Acts 17:30-31)
"But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered." (Rom. 6:17)
"Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." (2 Co. 7:1)
"Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work." (2 Tim. 2:21)
Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls." (Jas. 1:21)
"Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. Lament and mourn and weep! Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to gloom. Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and He will lift you up." (Jas. 4:7-10)
"Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit[a] in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart." (1 Pe. 1:22)
"And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely." (Rv. 22:17
“Ultimately you, being a follower of Calvinism, means you reject the idea that men have been created by God to have a free will.”
Notice that you spent more time explaining how I am an evil Calvinist than actually taking the time to answer a single thing I said. Either the scripture contradicts itself, or your position is false. Why should I regard your insults, or the things you provide, when you haven’t even gone through the trouble of exegesis? Do you think that you can magically make the scriptures go away that prove that faith itself is the gift of God? But to touch upon your error:
What Christian ever denied the command: “unless you repent, you will surely perish?” Or that a person must believe and turn to Christ? We simply affirm with Christ that “no one comes to me, unless it is given to them by my Father.” It is certainly true that a man believes, and he repents, and he acts by his own agency (though what is acting upon that agency is not by the control of man). As God does not control us like robots, but rather works within us, empowering us, giving us a new heart that desires both to will and to do of His own good pleasure:
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
We certainly both will and do, but how does one come to will and to do if not by God’s working? Is there a single good thing in man that can do God’s will of its own accord? The scriptures says that there is “none good,” there are none who understand or seek after God. So what is there in man that can do this good thing? What spark of goodness is there in man that you can offer me to prove your argument?
Joh 3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
Is there a single thing on this Earth we can affirm came from our free-will, and not from above?
And is God a “rapist” for working in us “both to will and to do of His own good pleasure?” If a man is a slave to his sin, is it “rape” for someone to release them from their bondage? Would you rather have the free-will to freely live your slave life and die according to your good pleasure and purpose? For that is what you do, unless God brings you to Himself with infallible power:
Joh 10:27-29 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: (28) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. (29) My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
The commands of God do not imply a moral ability of the hearer to obey them. After all, among those commands are “sin no more,” and “be ye perfect, as my Father in heaven is perfect.” And yet we are told that “if we say we have no sin, the truth is not in us.” We are not told to be perfect because we can be perfect, but so that we should covet being perfect, and oppose the evil, because “for by the law is the knowledge of sin.” And the knowledge of sin is the “schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.” It is not in the power of man to do anything good by his own free-will, as has been said before, but depends on the mercy of God who tells us that we ought to covet a new heart, but at the same time promises to provide us that heart so that we should believe in the first place:
Jer_24:7 And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the LORD: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart.
There is no fear here, no danger of damnation for the elect. No reason to fret of not being “good enough” for God, for whom God predestinates He also calls, and whom He calls He justifies.
But shall we cast away these scriptures just to hold on to a vain religion, no different than Romanism, and every other religion in the world, which puffs up man’s Free-Will over the wonderful power of God which calls on us all to lean on Him and not on ourselves? An accursed religion it is which claims that man is good, or has some spark of goodness in him, with which to merit his salvation. But our God tells us the truth, that we are dead and are bones exposed, and can never meet any condition for salvation. But blessed be the God of heaven who brings flesh to our corpses, a new heart for our chests, and breaths a new spirit into our bodies, so that we may live and be fruitful, with good fruit abiding forever.
Joh_15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
“I have learned that today’s hyper Calvinists will not be swayed by any logical explanation given.”
I am not a hyper-Calvinist, so maybe you should try giving a logical explanation instead of assuming that none would work if you did give one.
John Calvin taught a lot of stuff. To wholeheartedly reject what he taught is to dismiss everything he wrote. For instance have you read The Institutes? Do you reject it all?
Have you read the Westminster Confession? Are there parts of it you agree with or do you reject it all?
I have learned that today's hyper Calvinists will not be swayed by any logical explanation given
Can you distinguish the difference between an ordinary run of the mill Calvinist and a "hyper Calvinist"?
Are there any on this thread that you would number among the latter?
Did not Christ say many are called but few are chosen? There can be only one explanation as to why two times it was Written that God hated Esau and Jacob He loved. Their souls/spirits existed before they were placed in flesh body at conception.
The Roman Church, especially in the West, adapted Augustine's teachings as doctrine and began persecuted all dissenters out of existence over the next couple of centuries. To embrace original sin you, must negate man’s free will and their ability to obey God on their own.
If you honestly study the early church Saints along with the apostles, and yes including Paul, you will see they taught free will.
I already gave examples of the New Testament writers backing me on free will in my comment #13. However, if you read the writings of 2nd century Saints, you will see that they also believed and taught free will as it was taught to them by the 1st century Saints.
Tertullian:
“No reward can be justly bestowed, no punishment can be justly inflicted, upon him who is good or bad by necessity, and not by his own choice.
Justin Martyr:
“In the beginning, He made the human race with the power of thought and of choosing truth and doing right, so that all men are without excuse before God.”
Clement:
“If thou wilt be perfect.” Consequently he was not yet perfect. For nothing is more perfect than what is perfect. And divinely the expression “if thou wilt” showed the self-determination of the soul holding converse with Him. For choice depended on the man as being free; but the gift on God as the Lord. And He gives to those who are willing and are exceedingly earnest, and ask, that so their salvation may become their own. For God compels not (for compulsion is repugnant to God), but supplies to those who seek, and bestows on those who ask, and opens to those who knock
Nor shall he who is saved be saved against his will, for he is not inanimate; but he will above all voluntarily and of free choice speed to salvation. Wherefore also man received the commandments in order that he might be self-impelled, to whatever he wished of things to be chosen and to be avoided. Wherefore God does not do good by necessity, but from His free choice benefits those who spontaneously turn.
As for my disdain for Calvin's teachings, I will reserve any more comment on the man personally for God himself. For when a man's teachings lead millions astray from the truth, it is God he must eventually answer to. By now I am sure he has.
Some are given ‘free will’, Paul most certainly was not given ‘free will’. Saul was doing his free will and he sure did not ask for Heavenly direction on his trip to Damascus. Yet he was interrupted in doing his free will and wrote extensively regarding those predestined from before ‘the foundation’ (means the overthrow - casting down) of the world (or as Peter calls it the world/age that was, IIPeter 3)
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