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From Calvinist Prosecutor to Catholic Apologist
Catholic World Report ^ | July 26, 2013 | David Paul Deavel

Posted on 07/26/2013 2:04:17 PM PDT by NYer

Sunday, June 21, marked the 90th anniversary of the Scopes Monkey Trial decision. The questions surrounding evolution—meaning, in particular, the origins of humans—still raise large and important questions for how we understand human nature and the doctrine of original sin. But Jason Stellman thinks that the obsession with our physical origins, though understandable, is perhaps theologically off-kilter. Where we've come from biologically is not as important as where we're heading. It's not the beginning of the journey, man—it's the destination. Stellman's The Destiny of the Species (Wipf and Stock, 2013) is a brief, rollicking, and readable apologetic, notable not just for turning the question of origins on its head, but also for pioneering a slightly different route from the path taken by many Catholic converts in their first books.

From Prosecutor to Papist Stellman's own personal story is compelling. Born and raised in Orange County, California, Stellman came to serious faith in the context of the Evangelicalism of the California preacher Chuck Smith's Calvary Chapel ministries. He served as a Protestant missionary in both Hungary and Uganda before turning to a more theologically rigorous form of Protestantism: Calvinism. Stellman attended Westminster Seminary in Escondido, California and began ministering in the Presbyterian Church in America, the largest conservative Presbyterian denomination in the U.S., planting Exile Presbyterian Church in Woodinville, WA in 2004. Stellman's name came into the limelight when he was chosen to serve as the chief prosecutor in the 2011 heresy trial of fellow Presbyterian minister Peter Leithart, a Calvinist writer and scholar known to readers of journals including First Things and Touchstone. Leithart's views were accused of being in line with a school of Presbyterian thought known as the “Federal Vision,” and he was tried for, among other charges, allegedly failing to distinguish justification and sanctification, divine law and divine grace, and teaching that baptism confers grace and divine adoption. In short, Leithart was on trial for being too Catholic.

Although Stellman's work as prosecutor was acknowledged as solid at the time, Leithart was acquitted by the Northwest Presbytery. In the time after this trial, however, Stellman himself began to question certain historic Protestant beliefs like sola scriptura and sola fide. Through a number of contacts, including the group of formerly Calvinist Catholic apologists centered around the “Called to Communion” (calledtocommunion.com) website, which was founded to foster dialogue with and provide apologetics precisely for Calvinists who suspected the Catholic Church of being right or at least having something to say, Stellman began the journey that ended with his own entrance into the Church on September 23, 2012. Over the last year Stellman has been doing catechesis in a Seattle-area parish, and he now works at Logos Bible Software, developing resource material that will provide an easy way to look at the Scriptures in the light of Patristic and Medieval sources as well as the teachings of the Magisterium.

Apologetics for Everyone Much of Catholic apologetics in English-speaking countries, and increasingly in Latin America, has focused on the differences between Catholics and Protestants. This is not surprising given that large swaths of Evangelical Protestants were baptized as Catholics and left the Church due to the catechetical and spiritual failures of post-conciliar American Catholicism. Sherry Wedell of the Catherine of Siena Institute has written extensively of this phenomenon, which continues to this day—many Catholics who hunger for solid biblical teaching and help in living a life of Christian discipleship seek out elsewhere what they should find in Catholic faith. They find it in the Protestant world where large parts of the Catholic faith have been conserved, especially devotion to Scripture, a serious search for divine intimacy, and the main outlines of Christian morality. Thus Catholic apologetics has been naturally geared toward showing lapsed Catholics and the Protestants they have joined that Catholic faith actually fulfills what they are looking for in a more coherent and comprehensive way. This is an important task—and the importance of it has born great fruit over the last thirty years, not only bringing many serious Protestant pastors, academics, and laity into full communion, but changing the dynamic of Catholic-Protestant relations. During the last two papal conclaves, I have been asked a number of times by Evangelical Protestants about the candidates and what they have to offer. In 2005 one Evangelical Presbyterian friend asked me, “Are we going to get a really good Pope?” I was tempted to answer after the fashion of Tonto when the Lone Ranger asked what chance there was of the duo escaping a wrathful Indian tribe: “Who is this 'we,' white man?” But I didn't, because such a recognition shows how much anti-Catholicism has been tamed in the age of John Paul II, Catholic Answers, Evangelicals and Catholics Together, and all the other efforts of apologetics and dialogue.

Stellman certainly has done his part in explaining his own move, writing an essay titled “I Fought the Church, and the Church Won” and giving an in-depth interview on “Called to Communion” as well as engaging in various interesting questions about the real differences between Catholics and Calvinists on his personal blog, “Creed Code Cult”. But refreshingly, Stellman's Destiny of the Species is actually not geared toward Protestants interested in or annoyed by Mary, the Pope, Purgatory, and Indulgences. It is an apologetic for Christianity as a whole after the fashion of Chesterton's Orthodoxy or Lewis's Mere Christianity, geared toward those who might be “spiritual but not religious,” “nones,” lapsed Catholics who have left Christian faith behind altogether or are already practicing some other sort of faith, and Christians of all sorts, whether Catholic or not. What he has produced is an old-fashioned apologetic for everyone.

Back to the Future Stellman's book, written around the time of the 150th anniversary of Darwin's Origin of the Species, arrived not only in time for the 90th anniversary of the Scopes Monkey Trial, but also Pope Francis's first encyclical, Lumen Fidei, with which it bears some striking similarities. Destiny of the Species begins with the premise that while our biological origins are of interest to us, Darwin ultimately “doesn't scratch where we truly itch.” We certainly eat, drink, defecate, breathe, and move in ways that remind us we are animals. But unlike other animals, whose existence is instinctual, man “is not pushed but pulled, not driven but drawn.” Your dog may appreciate a good nap, a beef, and a burgundy, but we have desires for glory, love, and life that has no end. We are, says Stellman, “hard-wired for heaven.” All of the frantic search for someplace else and something new that Tocqueville found in so pure a form in America (and that more recent writers like David Brooks and Wendell Berry have wryly observed or excoriated) is the sign not simply of biological urge, but spiritual need. Stellman uses Chesterton's fine phrase to describe it: divine discontent. We all hunger for a future that is more than we can experience now.

Like Lumen Fidei, Stellman is proposing that human discontent and restlessness should be answered not by quelling them, but by seeking answers to them. Francis answers Nietzsche's dictum that “if you want peace of soul and happiness, then believe, but if you want to be a follower of truth, then seek,” noting that “autonomous reason is not enough to illumine the future”. Stellman observes that for the vast bulk of people, the way to apparent peace and happiness is not belief, but “worldliness”—simply following our biological needs and various emotional passions for things, fame, revenge, and pharmacologically-induced good feelings. The way of belief, according to Stellman, is actually the path to truth and the only way to real peace and happiness. The rest of his book is dedicated to illuminating the truth that, as Pope Francis puts it, “the light of faith is unique, since it is capable of illuminating every aspect of human existence.” It is “a light coming from the future and opening before us vast horizons which guide us beyond our isolated selves towards the breadth of communion.”

The seeker with a pure heart will not choose between belief and truth, but between competing beliefs. Again, like Pope Francis, Stellman emphasizes that our choice is really between true belief and idolatry. Stellman's middle chapters survey the various false gods that humans encounter, offering treatments of the five vanities surveyed in the book of Ecclesiastes, the temptations of a technologically advanced and affluent society, and how the universal acknowledgment of sin's reality usually issues in our identification of it in someone else's life. We all love to confess others' sins while staying silent about our own. Stellman's treatment is generally good in this section, though it must be said that his treatment of the dangers of life in a consumer society tend toward a sort of stereotyped vision of business and markets that might have been better left out or at least balanced by a recognition of the dangers of modern do-gooderism present in non-profit and government work, too. Stellman, whose views are probably left-of-center, occasionally seems as if he's making a brief against politically conservative Christians and not a brief for Christianity. Jibes at those who watch FOX News or take different views on political issues detract from what is solid and permanent in his exposition. This leads to a second difficulty in the book. Stellman uses a variety of pop-culture references to make his points. Many of them, such as his use of The Matrix to illuminate the choice we have to make between simply distracting ourselves and offering ourselves to seek the truth, hit home. Not all of them do. Rock music fans, especially U2 fans, sometimes need to be reminded that song lyrics seldom stand well on their own.

Stellman really excels when he is bringing out the great riches present in Scripture. Again, mirroring Lumen Fidei, Stellman shows how the Decalogue is meant not simply as a veto on naughty human actions, but as a liberation of humans from the passions and idolatries he's been describing and toward a life of spiritual abundance. (I would complain that he describes the Commandments using the Protestant rather than the Catholic numbering, but my own contribution to ecumenical outreach is to say let's do it the way Protestants and Jews do.) Using Job, Stellman shows how the real objection to God's existence, the problem of evil, is met by God's presence, ultimately in the form of Jesus Christ, whose Resurrection and Ascension show us, in a limited way, what we will be. Stellman's final pop-culture flourish is to use the movie Memento, which tells its story alternating between scenes starting in the beginning and moving forward and the end moving backward, as an analogy to the way in which the light of faith works. We know the destiny of the species is assured, but the light of faith, while illuminating all of life, doesn't usually show us more than we need for our own personal immediate steps ahead. “One step enough for me,” in Newman's famous words. Stellman's vision of Christianity answers exactly to the two primary aspects of Chesterton's personal philosophy in Orthodoxy. In the light of the future prepared for us, life is both familiar and unfamiliar, marvelous and unsatisfactory. It is not merely a biological process, but a high adventure. The Destiny of the Species: Man and the Future that Pulls Him
by Jason J. Stellman
Wipf & Stock, 2013 
128 pages

 


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Evangelical Christian; Ministry/Outreach
KEYWORDS: apologetics; calvinism; catholic; catholicapologist; federalvision; jasonstellman; peterleithart; presbyterian; stellman
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To: boatbums

Everything I said was true. If the Mod won’t let me tell the truth - even when it is painfully obvious - there’s no point to this conversation. Anti-Catholics can lie and get away with it at FreeRepublic.


341 posted on 07/31/2013 4:02:53 AM PDT by vladimir998
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To: vladimir998
No, I can’t admit what isn’t true. I am not blinded to the truth. I see things as they actually are.

Really? Like those things Rome wants you to 'see' with your natural eyes. The counterfeit 'appears' holy and puts that tag on things such as, holy father, holy water, holy vestments, the holy church, etc. If it has to tell you what it is, it isn't.

The TRUTH of Jesus, The Truth of His Kingdom is Supernatural so it's by faith...

"Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things NOT seen. For by it the men of old gained approval."

"So we fix our eyes NOT on what is seen, but on what is UNSEEN, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal." 2 Corinthians 4:18

"For we live by faith, not by sight." 2 Corinthians 5:7

Shrugging off warnings from those who see with their spiritual eyes is to your own demise. Jesus taught His Truth and gave warnings and left each one to choose to be teachable and heed the warnings or not.

342 posted on 07/31/2013 7:42:53 AM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: Elsie
No - it proves that aliens WILL, if given a chance, eat your CAT!

While there are aliens who eat cats, I am uncertain how my statement proves it.
343 posted on 07/31/2013 10:55:33 AM PDT by ronnietherocket3
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To: ronnietherocket3
... I am uncertain how my statement proves it.

But you are REALLY certain that undocumented testimonials from church fathers proves something.

344 posted on 07/31/2013 11:05:44 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: presently no screen name
Your claim is that we should be teachable? That we should not shrug off warnings from those with spiritual eyes (Catechism of the Catholic Church 733-741)?
345 posted on 07/31/2013 11:11:37 AM PDT by ronnietherocket3
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To: Elsie

She was catonized?


346 posted on 07/31/2013 11:32:17 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: ronnietherocket3

Teachable to the things of GOD and not the counterfeit.


347 posted on 07/31/2013 12:12:28 PM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: Elsie; vladimir998; presently no screen name
Elijah was not in the abode of God and could not be until Jesus opened the gates with His death and resurrection.

More Catholic fairy tales?

This is not one, but a conclusion based on the fact that, as explained in post 288 , until the Lord's atonement "the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing," (Heb. 9:8) "For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins." (Hebrews 10:4)

Thus OT saints such as the beggar of Lk 16:19ff were in paradise, Abraham's bosom, whom the crucified Christ first descended to and led captivity captive and then ascended to God. (Eph. 4:9) Paradise is now the third Heaven, God's very throne, (Mt. 5:34) the holiest of all, to which believers have immediate access to in Christ by the Spirit. (Heb. 10:19; Eph. 2:18) Praise God.

Thus, at the Lord death, "the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; " (Matthew 27:51) and after his resurrection, "the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many." (Matthew 27:52-53) And Paradise is now the 3rd heaven.(2Cor. 12:2)

To which believers go immediately upon death, or at the Lord's return, whichever comes first. (Lk. 23:43; Phil 1:23; 2Cor. 5:8; 1Cor. 15:51ff; 1Thess. 4:17)

The problem is seeking to reconcile 2Ki 2:11, "and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven" with Jn. 3:13, "And no man hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended from heaven, the Son of Man, who is in heaven." But it is reasonable to postulate that Elijah went into a part of "heaven," but not the holiest of God ("heaven" can denote other than God's very abode).

But that Elijah was someplace else doing ministry on earth is very unlikely, as he had passed on his mantle to Elisha, and Scripture concludes with him being taken into heaven.

This does not support purgatory, or PTDS, while as for Rev. 21, that is post resurrection.

348 posted on 07/31/2013 1:11:07 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: presently no screen name

You are correct and we are wrong because you stick to Scripture? However, this leads to a problem, how do we sort out multiple conflicting interpretations of the same passage? In the passage where Jesus says, “Thou art Peter and on the rock I will build my Church”, Catholics and Protestants interpret this passage differently.


349 posted on 07/31/2013 1:17:03 PM PDT by ronnietherocket3
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To: ronnietherocket3
The Doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is that the stain of Adam’s sin was spared from Mary at the moment of her conception.

Man made teachings are to deceive and they certainly have done that to those who believe them.

Jesus removed the sin nature on the Cross - ONCE and for ALL people. Either believe JESUS The Word or you are none of HIS. Believe doctrines of 'man who is evil' you belong to them.

by virtue of her son’s sacrifice,

JESUS is the SON of The Father. He sent Him to earth to redeem ALL. He wasn't 'from earth' But on earth He was born of a virgin. Jesus 'used' willing earthly vessels on earth to fulfill His Will and still does. Your 'worldly' church teaches 'worldly' concepts that is from the kingdom of satan.

No worldly concept/teaching is from OR belongs in the Kingdom of God. 'God is no respecter of persons' and this is just another 'Word of God', evil Rome disputes with their teachings of 'their Mary' and feeds it to the gullible and they believe and repeat it. Now the gullible bow and pray to 'man' and not God - just like satan designed his kingdom to be.

Jesus said those we Hear and OBEY the WILL of My Father is My mother, My brother, My sister. And Mary certainly did hear and obey The Will of the Father as do all those who are HIS. And that is what the Kingdom of God is about - alot different from 'your worldly church man teachings' - with who is better, titles, robes, pomp. Something 'the counterfeit' needed to entice the 'religious'.

She still needed Jesus.

Really? 'Your worldly church' put her in a place where she didn't need Jesus with their teaching of 'without sin'.

"And Jesus answered and said to them, "It is NOT those who are well who need a physician, but those who are sick. "I have NOT come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance."

Split-tongue talk in Rome and it spreads to anyone who can be deceived. Looks like JESUS didn't come from the 'self proclaimed infallible' popes. The righteous holy pomp coming from Rome is a stench and it has spread to 'their followers' who bow to 'man who is evil' and their teachings and they make 'man' their final authority.

God can see the future.

Yes and He warned what to expect...just 3 of His warnings are - Satan will be prowling around seeking who he will devour. And NO ONE can serve two masters. And the wide road leads to destruction and MANY are on it and only a FEW take the narrow path.

JESUS ALONE is the narrow path.

Just remember - every time one believes 'man' and their teachings, 24/7/365 - that's how many times they are denying Jesus.

350 posted on 07/31/2013 2:09:12 PM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: ronnietherocket3
He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.…

I highlighted what 'the rock' is. And on 'that truth' of Who JESUS is, He will build His Church. It was confirmed by The Father who His Son Jesus is. It was The Father's will He start 'the church' because He did nothing except what The Father said.

So JESUS IS THE CHRIST and born again Christians are His Body/His Church which was started by Jesus ALONE and based on His Word ALONE. Jesus is The Word and The Final Authority.

351 posted on 07/31/2013 2:33:55 PM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: ronnietherocket3
You are correct and we are wrong because you stick to Scripture?

We stick to JESUS The WORD ALONE and we will not listen 'another voice'.

It is JESUS Who is correct as HE is ALL TRUTH.

We are obedient to JESUS who is ALL TRUTH.

And the will of The Father is to 'hear and obey' HIS Word so we do the will of The Father.

And that is what Jesus did on earth - ONLY The will of The Father.

352 posted on 07/31/2013 2:44:10 PM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: daniel1212
To which believers go immediately upon death, or at the Lord's return, whichever comes first.

Then just WHO are the 'dead in Christ', that are actually IN their grave, to arise at the Lord's return?


1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (nkjv)
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

353 posted on 07/31/2013 3:20:37 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: ronnietherocket3
In the passage where Jesus says, “Thou art Peter and on the rock I will build my Church”, Catholics and Protestants interpret this passage differently.

It helps to actually LOOK at the entirety of Scripture on this matter: not just a snippet!


 
Is Peter the 'rock'?
 


NIV Matthew 4:18-19
 18.  As Jesus was walking beside the Sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers, Simon called Peter and his brother Andrew. They were casting a net into the lake, for they were fishermen.
 19.  "Come, follow me," Jesus said, "and I will make you fishers of men."
 
NIV Matthew 8:14
  When Jesus came into Peter's house, he saw Peter's mother-in-law lying in bed with a fever.
 
NIV Matthew 10:1-2
 1.  He called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out evil  spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.
 2.  These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John;
 
NIV Matthew 14:28-31
 28.  "Lord, if it's you," Peter replied, "tell me to come to you on the water."
 29.  "Come," he said.   Then Peter got down out of the boat, walked on the water and came toward Jesus.
 30.  But when he saw the wind, he was afraid and, beginning to sink, cried out, "Lord, save me!"
 31.  Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. "You of little faith," he said, "why did you doubt?"
 
NIV Matthew 15:13-16
 13.  He replied, "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots.
 14.  Leave them; they are blind guides.  If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit."
 15.  Peter said, "Explain the parable to us."
 16.  "Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them.
 

As you can see, Simon was already known as 'Peter'
BEFORE the following verses came along.....


NIV Matthew 16:13-18
 13.  When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?"
 14.  They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
 15.  "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
 16.  Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ,  the Son of the living God."
 17.  Jesus replied, "
Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
 18.  And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades  will not overcome it.
 19.  I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be  bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

NIV 1 Corinthians 10:4
   and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.
 
NIV Luke 6:48
   He is like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built.
 
NIV Romans 9:33
  As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."
 
 
 
NIV 1 Peter 2:4-8
 4.  As you come to him, the living Stone--rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him--
 5.  you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
 6.  For in Scripture it says: "See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."
 7.  Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, "The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone, "
 8.  and, "A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for.


But, since there WAS no NT at the time Christ spoke to Peter, just what DID Peter and the rest of the Disciples know about ROCKS???

 

NIV Genesis 49:24-25
 24.  But his bow remained steady, his strong arms stayed limber, because of the hand of the Mighty One of Jacob, because of the Shepherd, the Rock of Israel,
 25.  because of your father's God, who helps you, because of the Almighty,  who blesses you with blessings of the heavens above, blessings of the deep that lies below, blessings of the breast and womb.
 
NIV Numbers 20:8
   "Take the staff, and you and your brother Aaron gather the assembly together. Speak to that rock before their eyes and it will pour out its water. You will bring water out of the rock for the community so they and their livestock can drink."
 
NIV Deuteronomy 32:4
  He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.
 
NIV Deuteronomy 32:15
   Jeshurun  grew fat and kicked; filled with food, he became heavy and sleek. He abandoned the God who made him and rejected the Rock his Savior.
 
NIV Deuteronomy 32:18
  You deserted the Rock, who fathered you; you forgot the God who gave you birth.
 
NIV Deuteronomy 32:30-31
 30.  How could one man chase a thousand, or two put ten thousand to flight, unless their Rock had sold them, unless the LORD had given them up?
 31.  For their rock is not like our Rock, as even our enemies concede.
 
NIV 1 Samuel 2:2
  "There is no one holy  like the LORD; there is no one besides you; there is no Rock like our God.
 
NIV 2 Samuel 22:2-3
 2.  He said: "The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer;
 3.  my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield and the horn  of my salvation. He is my stronghold, my refuge and my savior-- from violent men you save me.
 
NIV 2 Samuel 22:32
  For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God?
 
NIV 2 Samuel 22:47
  "The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock! Exalted be God, the Rock, my Savior!
 
NIV 2 Samuel 23:3-4
 3.  The God of Israel spoke, the Rock of Israel said to me: `When one rules over men in righteousness, when he rules in the fear of God,
 4.  he is like the light of morning at sunrise on a cloudless morning, like the brightness after rain that brings the grass from the earth.'
 
NIV Psalms 18:2
  The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer; my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge. He is my shield and the horn  of my salvation, my stronghold.
 
NIV Psalms 18:31
   For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God?
 
NIV Psalms 18:46
  The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock! Exalted be God my Savior!
 
NIV Psalms 19:14
   May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be pleasing in your sight, O LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer.
 
NIV Psalms 28:1
   To you I call, O LORD my Rock; do not turn a deaf ear to me. For if you remain silent, I will be like those who have gone down to the pit.
 
NIV Psalms 31:2-3
 2.  Turn your ear to me, come quickly to my rescue; be my rock of refuge, a strong fortress to save me.
 3.  Since you are my rock and my fortress, for the sake of your name lead and guide me.
 
NIV Psalms 42:9
   I say to God my Rock, "Why have you forgotten me? Why must I go about mourning, oppressed by the enemy?"
 
NIV Psalms 62:2
   He alone is my rock and my salvation; he is my fortress, I will never be shaken.
 
NIV Psalms 62:6
   He alone is my rock and my salvation; he is my fortress, I will not be shaken.
 
NIV Psalms 62:7
   My salvation and my honor depend on God ; he is my mighty rock, my refuge.
 
NIV Psalms 71:3
   Be my rock of refuge, to which I can always go; give the command to save me, for you are my rock and my fortress.
 
NIV Psalms 78:35
   They remembered that God was their Rock, that God Most High was their Redeemer.
 
NIV Psalms 89:26
   He will call out to me, `You are my Father, my God, the Rock my Savior.'
 
NIV Psalms 92:14-15
 14.  They will still bear fruit in old age, they will stay fresh and green,
 15.  proclaiming, "The LORD is upright; he is my Rock, and there is no wickedness in him."
 
NIV Psalms 95:1
   Come, let us sing for joy to the LORD; let us shout aloud to the Rock of our salvation.
 
NIV Psalms 144:1
   Praise be to the LORD my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle.
 
NIV Isaiah 17:10
   You have forgotten God your Savior; you have not remembered the Rock, your fortress.
 
NIV Isaiah 26:4
   Trust in the LORD forever, for the LORD, the LORD, is the Rock eternal.
 
NIV Isaiah 30:29
 And you will sing as on the night you celebrate a holy festival; your hearts will rejoice as when people go up with flutes to the mountain of the LORD, to the Rock of Israel.
 
NIV Isaiah 44:8
   Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one." 
 
NIV Habakkuk 1:12
   O LORD, are you not from everlasting? My God, my Holy One, we will not die. O LORD, you have appointed them to execute judgment; O Rock, you have ordained them to punish.

.....No other rock.............
 
And now you know the Biblical position!


354 posted on 07/31/2013 3:22:27 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: presently no screen name

“If it has to tell you what it is, it isn’t.”

Jesus’ name means “God saves”. So, according to your logic, Jesus must not save since His name says so.


355 posted on 07/31/2013 3:29:54 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: daniel1212

“But it is reasonable to postulate that Elijah went into a part of “heaven,” but not the holiest of God (”heaven” can denote other than God’s very abode).”

So, you spent a lot of time to say what I said: Elijah did not go into “God’s very abode”.


356 posted on 07/31/2013 3:31:35 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: vladimir998
The counterfeit 'appears' holy and puts that tag on things such as, holy father, holy water, holy vestments, the holy church, etc. If it has to tell you what it is, it isn't.

It is very clear I was speaking about the counterfeit church and then you post as if Jesus is.

You better watch yourself, twisting and manipulating what someone says is clearly from the demonic - like the Rome/CC does with God's Word. Their evil roots goes deep in you and is apparent. Garbage in, garbage out.

357 posted on 07/31/2013 9:54:20 PM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: presently no screen name

Learn to read: “So, according to your logic...”


358 posted on 08/01/2013 12:56:50 AM PDT by vladimir998
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To: vladimir998

Now THAT’s funny!


359 posted on 08/01/2013 4:04:56 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: vladimir998
So, you spent a lot of time to say what I said: Elijah did not go into “God’s very abode”.

I did, but not on the earth, while i prefaced my comment by saying, "talk about bible lessons." This is a legitimate issue which warrants searching out a matter, esp. for those who hold Scripture as the supreme transcendent authority.

360 posted on 08/01/2013 4:39:17 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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