Pope Francis rejects false religiosity

cna ^ | September 7, 2013 | Kerri Lenartowick

[vladimir998]

The Church is teaching in 3:10. You can say she is teaching by example, but she’s still teaching. She is making known “the manifold wisdom of God”.

[vladimir998]

That’s all still interpretation.

[vladimir998]

“In addition to that the RCC uses the translation from the Latin which was a translation from the original languages. It got polluted twice.”

False. The Church uses the Nova Vulgata (Latin) which is an accurate translation of the Hebrew and Greek. It’s no different than someone using an English Bible. And the Church uses the best Greek and Hebrew texts available. That is made clear in the preface:

6. Idem verbum seu vocabulum Hebraicum vel Graecum non idem omnino verbum Latinum exposcit nec patitur; eligendum igitur est verbum homologum, quod contextus requirit, vel pressius verborum significationi respondet. Quod dicendum est etiam de notissimis illis hesed (gratia, misericordia, benignitas), qâhâl (coetus, conventus, ecclesia), berît (foedus, testamentum), rûah (ventus, halitus, animus), quae varias significationes habere possunt.
....
8. Huc pertinent haud pauci Hebraismi, qui saepissime occurrunt apud auctores christianos praesertim in Vulgata et in Vetere Latina versione. Difficile videtur rem “ a priori “ definire. Universe dici potest quod si agitur de meris Hebraismis, qui Latinitatem undique offendunt vel sunt Latine parum intellegibiles vel obscuri, tunc manifeste corrigendi sunt. Semitismi ut “ domus sanctitatis ”, “ via iustitiae ”, “ filius perditionis ”, “ canticum canticorum ”, “ in pace ”, “ in sanctitate ”, “ in iustitia ”, “ ante faciem ”, maiore cum benevolentia diiudicandi videntur; considerandus est enim in singulis casibus cum usus Latinitatis christianae proprius, tum genus dicendi vulgare, nec praetermittenda videtur consuetudo hominum nostrae aetatis eorumque percipiendi facilitas.

9. Quod ad nomina propria personarum et locorum attinet, opera est data, praesertim in hac altera editione, ut saltem in eodem libro eademque significatione uniformitas servaretur, praelato, ut patet, scribendi modo certiore aut, in re dubia, editionis Xystinae–Clementinae ratione expressa, quae propius accedit ad formam Graecam, quae, ad hoc quod pertinet, est textu Masoretico antiquior.

But why let facts get in the way of anti-Catholic fantasies?

[WVKayaker]

You can enjoy whatever Protestant anti-Catholic twilight world fantasy you want to, but that doesn’t change the fact that the Catholic Church is not a cult.

It's a cult!

Exodus 20: 2- You shall not make for yourself any carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

*****

cult [kuhlt]
noun
1. a particular system of religious worship, especially with reference to its rites and ceremonies.
2. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, especially as manifested by a body of admirers
3. the object of such devotion.
4. a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.
5. Sociology . a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols.

[CynicalBear]

Only to a Catholic can Translation be called interpretation.

[vladimir998]

“principalities and powers in heavenly places” = angels

“now ****UNTO**** the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known **** BY THE CHURCH ***** the manifold wisdom of God” = taught by the Church.

[vladimir998]

No different than the ancient Temple:

2 Chronicles 3:10-13
http://www.biblesearchers.com/temples/jeremiah10.shtml

[CynicalBear]

>> There is no “Roman Catholic CULT”. You can enjoy whatever Protestant anti-Catholic twilight world fantasy you want to, but that doesn’t change the fact that the Catholic Church is not a cult.<<

Here’s a list I’ve gotten from different sources who warn about cults and what to look for.

Signs of a cult.

1. They replace Christ --- Vicar of Christ
2. cult teachers will proclaim a "gospel message" that is ultimately is a message of works-centered salvation, in sharpest contrast to the Good News of saving grace through faith in Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9). They'll preach "another gospel."
3. the revealed spiritual nature of the work of the cult claims to be, but actually is not, inspired by God the Spirit. Instead, a chilling reference is made to spiritual entities who lend tremendous spiritual power to their natural human puppets to preach deceptive gospels. They'll be empowered by "another spirit." This is the work of demonic agents in allegiance with Satan, the opposer of God throughout history.
4. Has a leader that is revered by cult members.
5. The leader claims special authority
6. Divine Revelation claimed by the leader which is non-verifiable.
7. Usually changes and/or evolves over time.
8. Intolerant – members cannot challenge or even question cult doctrine or decisions made by cult leadership.
9. Overrriding authority (i.e. correcting, amending or even replacing the Bible) attributed to the special divine revelation.
10. Denial of the authority and completeness of Scripture
11. Signs, signals or other means of identification and/or recognition
12. Dressing differently, sometimes in special uniforms or costumes.

How many of those can be applied to the RCC?

[WVKayaker]

No different than the ancient Temple:

Yeah, you see where that one stands. Paul describes the New Testament temple... and it's not located in Rome! Don't be fooled by some manmade institution (CULT)!

1 Corinthians 3: ... 10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

16 Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst? 17 If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy that person; for God’s temple is sacred, and you together are that temple.

18 Do not deceive yourselves. If any of you think you are wise by the standards of this age, you should become “fools” so that you may become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written: “He catches the wise in their craftiness”; 20 and again, “The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile.” 21 So then, no more boasting about human leaders! All things are yours, 22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours, 23 and you are of Christ, and Christ is of God.

[vladimir998]

Really?

You mean this Protestant Bible translation-interpretation controversy never happened? http://sbl-site.org/publications/article.aspx?articleId=762

I think this guy is way off base, but there’s no doubt he is interpreting as he translates: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-joel-hoffman/five-ways-your-bible-tran_b_1007058.html

And the Greek Orthodox never wrote this: http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7068

And gee, I guess you think there’s no argument over any verse in the Bible like 3:14 in Exodus or Isaiah 7:14 : http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2013/april/knowing-what-bible-really-means.html

[CynicalBear]

You…have…got…to…be…kidding…me. Can this get any more bizarre? Let’s look at the exchange.

CB - “In addition to that the RCC uses the translation from the Latin which was a translation from the original languages. It got polluted twice.”

Vlad - False. The Church uses the Nova Vulgata (Latin) which is an accurate translation of the Hebrew and Greek.

How can anyone debate with someone who calls something false then confirms what was said? It’s beyond bizarre!

[CynicalBear]

“now ****UNTO**** the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known **** BY THE CHURCH ***** the manifold wisdom of God” = the angels didn’t know that God grafted the church into the promise of salvation to the Jews. The “by the church” means that it was by adding the church to the promise that the angels learned of the new covenant. The “church” did NOT teach the angels.

I do believe this is the second time you have been shown this truth.

[WVKayaker]

I think this guy is way off base, but there’s no doubt he is interpreting as he translates:...

Of course you think I'm off base (thanks for the ping. What, you didn't ping me? I'm shocked, I tell you!!!) Whenever someone presents facts and truth against the Roman Catholic cult, the usual attack comes back as a personal criticism rather than a refutation. It may also include some foolish attempt at diversion or deflection by bringing up a tangential point.

But, thank God for His Holy Spirit. Jesus made us a promise...

John 14: ... 23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 24 Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

25 “All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

[smvoice]

I’ll be waiting for an answer to your question, CB. Can’t wait to see what it is.

[CynicalBear]

Oh good grief. No one said there are “translations” that have been polluted by “interpretation” injections. Why do you think we insist on viewing the original text with direct word “translations”. It still holds true that a strict word translation is NOT an interpretation. You can attempt all the double speak you want but it won’t work with Spirit filled Christians.

[vladimir998]

“How many of those can be applied to the RCC?”

None.

“1. They replace Christ -— Vicar of Christ.”

Nope. Peter was chosen by Christ. He and his successors do not replace Christ. They lead the Church until Christ’s return.

“2. cult teachers will proclaim a “gospel message” that is ultimately is a message of works-centered salvation, in sharpest contrast to the Good News of saving grace through faith in Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9). They’ll preach “another gospel.””

The Catholic Church believes in a gospel of grace. The grace is freely given by God and received by the faithful servant of Christ.

“3. the revealed spiritual nature of the work of the cult claims to be, but actually is not, inspired by God the Spirit. Instead, a chilling reference is made to spiritual entities who lend tremendous spiritual power to their natural human puppets to preach deceptive gospels. They’ll be empowered by “another spirit.” This is the work of demonic agents in allegiance with Satan, the opposer of God throughout history.”

There are no puppets, no chilling references, and no deceptive gospel taught by the Catholic Church.

“4. Has a leader that is revered by cult members.”

There are no cult members to revere anyone in the Catholic Church.

“5. The leader claims special authority”

The pope only claims the authority given to him to bind and loose from the beginning.

“6. Divine Revelation claimed by the leader which is non-verifiable.”

Nope. The pope does not claim divine revelation.

“7. Usually changes and/or evolves over time.”

Nope. Development is neither an instant change nor an evolution. Protestant beliefs have developed. Some even admit it.

“8. Intolerant – members cannot challenge or even question cult doctrine or decisions made by cult leadership.”

There is no cult doctrine in the Catholic Church. Decisions by the hierarchy can be questioned by the laity.

“9. Overrriding authority (i.e. correcting, amending or even replacing the Bible) attributed to the special divine revelation.”

Nothing from the Bible is replaced, and nothing is “attributed to the special divine revelation.”

“10. Denial of the authority and completeness of Scripture”

There is no denial of the authority or completeness of scripture by the Catholic Church. The Church has always recognized that scripture is of unquestionable authority. The church also recognizes the Bible is complete for what it is. The Bible itself says it was not the purpose of the Bible to cover all things Jesus did or said let alone all things.

“11. Signs, signals or other means of identification and/or recognition”

The signs and symbols used by the Catholic Church are ancient Christian symbols and are used by many Protestants as well.

“12. Dressing differently, sometimes in special uniforms or costumes.”

The clergy of the Church wear clothing older than modern clothing. Their clothes stayed the same. It is our clothing which became different. Also, ancient Judaism, at the very order of God, had different clothing for the priests of Israel.

Well, so much for your list.

[CynicalBear]

ROFLOL! Trying to explain why they do what they do does not refute what those who warn about cults say to look for. The RCC is a cult. That may hurt your feelings but it’s the truth.

[vladimir998]

“How can anyone debate with someone who calls something false then confirms what was said? It’s beyond bizarre!”

Okay, look at your own question this way:

“In addition to that the [Protestant sects] use vernacular translations of the original languages. It got polluted twice.”

Is that true? If I read the Bible in Latin, and I have done so, was it polluted twice? Why? Because it is a translation of the original languages? Then wouldn’t that mean your English KJV, NKJV, RSV, NIV, etc. are all “polluted twice”?

Do you even think about your posts before you post them?

[CynicalBear]

>> No different than the ancient Temple:<<

You haven’t heard? The veil was rent at Christ’s death on the cross. No more priests other than the priesthood of believers. No more sacrifice due to the once for all perfect sacrifice of Christ.

[vladimir998]

Nope. The Church taught the angels. It is from the Church that the angels learned the manifest wisdom of God. Look at 1 Peter 1:12 by the way.