Posted on 10/04/2013 2:11:50 PM PDT by jodyel
Present Tribulation vs. Future Tribulation, Dr. Thomas Ice
Over the years I have noticed an argument against pretribulationism which goes something like the following: "The New Testament teaches that we will suffer persecution and tribulation as followers of Christ, therefore, I believe the Church will go through the tribulation." The New Testament does teach that Believers will suffer persecution and tribulation, but it does not follow that because of this the Church will go through the tribulation.
Church Age Tribulation
Jesus clearly teaches that the Church Age, before the rapture and the tribulation, would be a time in which Believers would experience "tribulation" from the world. Jesus said,
"If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, 'A slave is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also" (John 15:18-20).
"These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world" (John 16:33).
It is said of the Apostles in the early Church:
"So they went on their way from the presence of the Council, rejoicing that they had been considered worthy to suffer shame for His name" (Acts 5:41).
Later it was also said,
"strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying, 'Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God'" (Acts 14:22).
Paul tells us,
"For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake" (Phil. 1:29).
Paul wrote in his farewell epistle,
"Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted" (2 Tim. 3:12).
Peter noted the following:
"But to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing; so that also at the revelation of His glory, you may rejoice with exultation" (1 Pet. 4:13).
Therefore, there is a clear biblical basis for expecting Church Age persecution from the world toward believers.
Gerald Stanton declares the following about Church Age tribulation:
And one has but to think of Christians being thrown to the lions in a Roman arena, or Christians being torn on the racks of a Spanish Inquisition, or Christians today being put to death in godless Communistic lands to realize that believers have undergone fiery trials down through the years since the days of the early church. Such persecutions with their untold agony, no matter how severe, are nevertheless not "the great tribulation." If they were, one could hardly read Fox's Book of Martyrs without concluding that there have been two or three "great tribulations" every century from the time of Christ.
Down through the centuries, believers have suffered, bled, and died for their faith in Christ, counting it not loss to seal their testimony with their blood. [1]
I have read from various sources that at least 100,000 believers die each year throughout the world in our own day and age, not to mention the various levels of persecution short of death that goes on as well. These are the Church Age tribulations that the New Testament speaks of in relation to believers throughout the entire dispensation of the Church.
The point is that non-pretribulationists believe that future tribulation during the seven-year tribulation is basically more of the same kind of persecution that has been going on for the last two thousand years. On the other hand, pretribulationists believe that the Bible indicates that tribulation during the future seven-years will be something that has never been seen before, it will be the judgment from God upon a Christ-rejecting world. What has been going on since the founding of the Church about two thousand years ago has been the animosity of Satan, his demons and the hatred of the unbelieving world, not the wrath of God.
The Tribulation
The tribulation, which is spoken of dozens of times with various labels like "day of the Lord," time of "wrath," "the tribulation," etc., is mentioned throughout the Bible. Some of the many references include passages throughout almost all of the prophets, the Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24:4, 28; Mark 13:3, 23), and most of the Book of Revelation (4-19). That time is referred to throughout Revelation as the wrath of the Lamb or God. Note the following: "the wrath of the Lamb" (6:16); "for the great day of their wrath has come" (6:17); [God's] "Thy wrath" (11:18); "he will also drink of the wine of the wrath of God" (14:10); "and threw them into the great wine press of the wrath of God" (14:19); "seven plagues, which are the last, because in them the wrath of God is finished" (15:1); "seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God" (15:7); "Go and pour out the seven bowls of the wrath of God into the earth" (16:1); "Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath" (16:19); "He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God" (19:15).
It is quite clear in the biblical text that tribulation is a time of God's wrath, not of mankind or of Satan. Scripture speaks of some episodes of Satan and the world against God's people, but the emphasis is clearly upon the wrath of God throughout. In fact, throughout the tribulation there is first a fourth of the earth's population that is killed (Rev. 6:8), then a third is killed (Rev. 9:18), and finally, by the end, all unbelievers are killed (Matt. 13:40, 43; 25:31, 46; Rev. 19:11, 16). Obviously, these passages speak of a time unlike anything that has ever happened throughout the Church Age. Kept from the Hour
Clearly the New Testament teaches that the Church will be kept from the time of God's wrath. Paul, in one of his earliest epistles makes note of this fact as follows:
"...and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come" (1 Thess. 1:10).
In the same epistle he says,
"For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess. 5:9).
Paul assumes the much used Old Testament term "wrath" to mean what it does in the Old Testament, which is the time of God's wrath or the tribulation period when God's wrath will be poured out upon the earth. Thus, these two passages, which speak of a future time different than the current Church Age which they were in, clearly see that wrath occurring during the tribulation. Therefore, the Thessalonian believers and all Church Age believers have a promise from God that we will not experience the wrath of God. A similar point is made from Paul's statement in Romans 5:9.
Revelation 3:10 says,
"Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth."
This promise made to the Church of Philadelphia and thus all believers throughout the Church Age promises that we will be kept out of the time of the tribulation. This passage has very clear pre-trib implications. The "hour" or "time" of testing is what believers will be kept from. Further, the hour of testing is said to be something that will in the future come upon the whole earth. Thus, it is clear that it is not something that has happened during the days of the Church Age, since no one knows of a global testing that came upon the whole earth since the first century. John speaks in this passage of the tribulation period, which is clearly a time in which the Lord will test the earth dwellers (always persistent unbelievers throughout Revelation) and not Church Age believers. The passage makes it clear that the present Church Age is when the Church is being tested and that is the reason given for why we will be exempted from the time period when God will test the earth dwellers during the period we know as the tribulation.
Conclusion
The Bible distinguishes between trials and tribulations that are destined to occur to Believers during the Church Age from the wrath of God, which will be poured out during the tribulation that is intended for the world. To say that the Church will go through the tribulation because the Bible predicts that Believers will experience tribulation is an erroneous statement in light of the Bible's distinction between present and future tribulation. It is also more likely for an American, who has not experience persecution yet, to think that we must, since America has a different history in relation to Christianity than is common throughout the Church Age.
I have often heard Dr. Ed Hindson make an excellent analogy concerning this issue. He says that having the Church, which is pictured in the New Testament as the Bride of Christ, go through the tribulation is like a man taking a girl to whom he is engaged and beating her to the point of near death and then saying, "Hey babe, let's get married." Such behavior would rightly be thought to be crazy. The New Testament clearly teaches that Christ marries the Bride in heaven (Rev. 19:7-10) before she accompanies Him to earth. She is already in heaven since she was raptured before the tribulation in order to experience the judgment seat of Christ during the tribulation. Therefore she is ready, married and victoriously returning to earth at the second coming with Christ (Rev. 19:11-21). Only the pre-trib scenario makes sense of the details, thus demonstrating that the belief that the Church needs to go through the wrath of the tribulation is a false conclusion. Maranatha!
Endnotes
[1] Gerald B. Stanton, Kept from the Hour: A Systematic Study of the Rapture in Bible Prophecy (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1956), pp. 33-34.
Accepted, and true - but we cannot parse the prophets on that basis - THEY didn't know what they were talking about, but YHWH did. The testimony of Yeshua the Messiah IS the spirit of prophecy(Rev 19:10). Since the entirety of Scripture, the whole of it, is prophetic, then the whole of Scripture IS the Testimony of Yeshua. It cannot be double-minded, but always pointing the same way, because the author and witness of the Prophecy is Yeshua. HE said every word of it.
So it is with Isaiah 50. It was Judah that God said He would divorce. Because of the people selling themselves to commit sin (v1), the Babylonian captivity of the kingdom). He says that Judah is hopeless to try to be redeemed by man. He makes it clear that only He and He alone could redeem, and confirming it with what He had done by His power in the past (v2-3)
Then there should be a bill of divorcement - But there is no evidence thereof - YHWH has never said to Judah, "You are not my people, and I am not your God." The good news set aside for a moment, the Bible is also a very legal document, spanning every and all 'contracts' between YHWH and Man. I find it hard to believe that He would not include the very specific language that requires (He DID do so once, and only once, and not against Judah).
And Is 54 makes a specific distinction between the 'wife' and the 'barren woman' - The barren woman would have way more children than the married wife - so they specifically cannot be the same entity. The wife admittedly has children, the barren woman does not (at the time of the prophecy). They are two different things. One WAS a wife in her youth, acted shamefully, and was rejected. The other, the married wife, still IS married.
All of this prophecy is future when Isaiah wrote it. The divorce between God and Judah took place over 100 years in the future, when the Babylonians took captive the kingdom.
No, He never has divorced her, and could not divorce her, because the Promised One had to come through Judah. Don't get me wrong, Judah did poorly, and was sorely punished more than once, but the scepter and the rod could not be taken away... Hence never divorced. The rod and the scepter were declared ALWAYS to reside in Judah, and that can't have changed.
Judah is the wife, not the barren woman.
Then please tell us who it is, IYHO. So we can move forward with this! :)
Is the "barren woman" the Sadducees and Pharisees of Matthew 3:7? FALSE ISRAEL. As compared to the Little Flock of Luke 12:32, TRUE ISRAEL?
The barren woman is the New Jerusalem which up until that time had no children. After Christ’s death and resurrection is when the New Jerusalem began to “have children” as in those converted. The children of the New Jerusalem consist of both Jews and Gentiles that were converted and saved by Christ.
THANK YOU and that makes PERFECT sense, CB!
Scripture is like that when we pray for guidance by the Holy Spirit. No thanks to me (although I know what you mean) but thanks be to God for enlightenment.
AMEN! So FINALLY we can move forward with this!
Ultimately true (Gal 4:27)- but are you telling me that New Jerusalem had a shame of her youth? was married in her youth and rejected? New Jerusalem is spotless. New Jerusalem was not rejected by YHWH. There must be more in Gal 4:27.
The Barren woman is the House of Israel (as distinct from the House of Judah), referring to the northern Kingdom. BOTH were married to YHWH, but the Northern tribes were divorced:
And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
Nonetheless, promises specific to the house of Isreal (all of Hosea particularly) must be fulfilled. They are the ones called lo ammi 'not my people'. They are the ones who are to be passed through the nations as seed. They are rejected of YHWH entirely... though in the place where they were rejected HE SWEARS they will one day be called the Sons of YHWH. He promises that one day he will marry her again.
But the law states explicitly that a man can take back a woman out of divorcement ONLY if she has not slept with another during the time of divorcement (which Israel certainly DID). So how does YHWH honor His promise to take her back without breaking His Law (which He will never do)?
Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Somebody had to die to end the marriage vow. Then a new marriage vow could be arranged. Rachel weeps for her children because they are not - Benjamin and Joseph - Joseph of the coat of many colors (races?) Joseph whose children were not of a Hebrew mother - Joseph whose strength was in the land of Egypt before they were told to 'come out of her'. But Joseph (and most of Benjamin) were carried away - How many children do you think Rachel has by now?
@smvoice:
What started this conversation was your suggestion that most of the Church is gentile - It is said that the most prolific seed found in Asia and Europe is the seed of Ghengis Khan, and that in but a handful of centuries in comparison to the seed of the House of Israel... And that by one man in comparison to the nation of men hauled away thousands of years ago, and dispersed throughout the nations. But YHWH SWORE he would not even let ONE seed of the House of Israel escape his view.
When the Jews rejected the Annointed One, YHWH SWORE to take the covenant from them and give it to lo ammi - Give it to 'Not my People' It is she who inherits the gentiles, both by conversion to the Covenant, and very likely by actual bloodline. Do not forget who is grafted unto whom. Replacement theology leaves it's mark on Christendom, even to this day.
Who then is the Bride? Exactly who you think she is, but with a depth that is not understood. There is not one thing for the Jew and one thing for the Gentile, but rather, by now, the Jew and the Gentile are one thing.
And that is but a tiny touch on what one will find if one can distinguish the difference between Israel and Judah, and the Whole House of Israel (both together). I don't think one can even begin to understand the prophets without that distinction. Look now to whom Yeshua sent His disciples...
I'll be brief. Between the opening of the sixth and seventh seals is chapter 7 (KJV). Chapter 7 deals with the destiny of those who are protected. Then the seventh seal is opened in chapter 8, when the seven trumps begin sounding.
In Matthew 24, Yeshua describes the sounding of the trumps as follows:
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
There appear markers dividing the "tribulation" from the much worse "wrath/woe". They are the appearance of the Messiah in the heavens (the day of the Lord), the sounding of the trumpets, and the transformation of those who are in Messiah (both the living and those in the grave).
Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!”
In the opinion of many who've studied this for many years, the above will likely occur on Tishri 1 (of the corrected calendar), Yom Teruuah (year unknown) - (fifteen days prior to the marriage supper of the Lamb).
Bravo! Well done.
What about tying in a reference to Ezekiel 37:15-28 when you have an opportunity. :)
>> “And that is but a tiny touch on what one will find if one can distinguish the difference between Israel and Judah, and the Whole House of Israel (both together). I don’t think one can even begin to understand the prophets without that distinction.” <<
.
Bravo!
It’s been a long time since that kind of truthful analysis has been posted here. The Hyper-Calvinists got the last guy that was courageous enough to talk about it banned. That was more than ten years ago.
I think you meant #341, not 328.
:)
He was trying to poke his own reply but looked at the wrong number.
...I know..I was just kidding..:)
I'm a little confused here.
Are you saying that the Jews who rejected Jesus were the tribe of Judah, and that the Gentiles to whom the gospel has spread and are accepting Jesus as savior are of the House of Israel?
And this is how God is remarrying Israel?
Great question and I’m confused, too.
I thought I was the only one.
I guess what else I’m asking is if the Gentiles who are being saved by faith in Christ, through the new covenant, are of the bloodline of the House of Israel.
If the house of Israel was dispersed among the Gentiles, that would make sense.
Maybe that could explain the apparent randomness of why some people and families seem to see a lot of conversion, and others don’t.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.