A Traditionalist Defends Pope Francis

Catholic in Brooklyn ^ | October 6, 2013

[Cicero]

In a word, agreed.

[cothrige]

Yes, I agree with this. Not every word from a pope is intended as being binding on people, at least on a one off basis. I would say, though, for those following the interview kerfuffle, frequent repetition is an indicator and this pope is repeating a few things a lot, and some of them are worrying to more than a few people. But, that is another thing. As far as religious submission I agree that it does not apply to every word the pontiff utters, but it certainly is not just attached to ex cathedra statements as was stated earlier. That is an all-too common mistake it seems to me.

[Biggirl]

Your opinion and your opinon only.

Plus the luminous mysteries fill in that needed space between the early life of Christ and His passion.

[Hieronymus]

It depends who you hang out with. In some circles, every Papal word from the current pope is treasured. There is a value in the hermeneutic of continuity.

I was sort of happy to discover in one of my classes today that none of the 16 or so 18-24 year-olds had even heard of Richard McBrien. The times, they are a changing.

[Biggirl]

Why all this fighting over Pope Francis?

[Biggirl]

Thank-you and God Bless.

[mlizzy]

They [Our Lady of Victory] didn’t do the Latin Mass, but it was always beautifully done and traditional minded...

St. Peter's in the Loop [Chicago] is much the same way. And they devote significant time to Confession: "CONFESSIONS Weekdays: 7:30 a.m.—6:00 p.m., Saturdays: 12:00 p.m.—4:30 p.m." And they've never turned down a special request for face-to-face!

[steve86]

The relevant section of the Vatican II Document Lumen Gentium (excerpted from LG 25): This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will. His mind and will in the matter may be known either from the character of the documents, from his frequent repetition of the same doctrine, or from his manner of speaking.

Is this a change from Pre-Vatican II or would you consider it as more of a clarification? I personally don't trust anything from VII onwards unless it is a re-iteration of previous doctrine/dogma/documents. Also, it can be difficult to determine when a statement pertains to "faith" because almost anything he says is at least indirectly related to faith.

[mlizzy]

I was an admirer of JP II and his Encyclicals. Still, it seemed to me an odd thing to do. Not wrong, but odd. And I don’t think it has done anything to increase the saying of the Rosary, which probably was his purpose.

Well put, and I tend to agree. However, we do recite the Luminous Mysteries, regardless. Now, if I only could remember all of them without looking... :)

[Hieronymus]

I would consider it a clarification.

What has changed is the media/access to what the Pope says and does. 25 years ago one would be hard-pressed to find out what the Pope was saying even if it was directly addressed to you (i.e. finding and purchasing encyclicals was challenging). Now if the Pope moves his thoughts can often be found via twitter or a Google search.

The document was written for an earlier situation, and should be understood in that context.

[Biggirl]

I do think the reason the luminous mysteries were added is because to cover the most important events in the life/teachings of Christ.

[NYer]

Why all this fighting over Pope Francis?

He and his 'disciples' were caught picking wheat on the sabbath. (Matthew 12:1-2)

[NYer]

No problem, I suppose. You and and the modernist popes can make up new decades every day if you want.

When, in an approved apparition, Mary acknowledges the Luminous Mysteries I will rush to incorporate them.

Some historical perspective might be important. The origins of the rosary are "sketchy" at best. The use of "prayer beads" and the repeated recitation of prayers to aid in meditation stem from the earliest days of the Church and has roots in pre-Christian times.

The structure of the rosary gradually evolved between the 12th and 15th centuries. Eventually 50 Hail Marys were recited and linked with verses of psalms or other phrases evoking the lives of Jesus and Mary.

Our Blessed Mother encouraged us to pray the rosary; Show me where she defined the Mysteries on which to meditate.

[mlizzy]

I do think the reason the luminous mysteries were added is because to cover the most important events in the life/teachings of Christ.

I wonder if JPII covered his reasoning [through writings] behind incorporating the Luminous Mysteries. It would be very interesting to read.

[steve86]

I’m aware only that she instructed (maybe admonished) the children at Fatima to pray the Rosary “properly”.

[NYer]

I’m aware only that she instructed (maybe admonished) the children at Fatima to pray the Rosary “properly”.

Properly? Here are the Blessed Mother's requests:

Our Lady of Fatima:
May 13, 1917: Say the Rosary every day to obtain world peace and the end of the war.
June 13, 1917: I want you to say the Rosary every day.
July 13, 1917: I want you to continue saying the Rosary every day.
August 19, 1917: I want you to continue saying the Rosary every day.
September 13, 1917: Continue saying the Rosary to obtain the end of the war.
October 13, 1917: I want you to continue saying the Rosary every day.

There is no mention of "properly" or anything resembling it.

Thank you, Steve, for being the only one to respond. Our Blessed Mother asks ONLY that we pray the rosary, without any stipulations.

Our Lady further said, "Pray, pray a great deal and make many sacrifices, for many souls go to Hell because they have no one to make sacrifices and to pray for them. " That sounds a lot like contemporary times where people pass away and there truly is no one to pray for them.

I challenge ALL of you to make THIS your goal. PRAY THE ROSARY FOR THOSE WHO HAVE NO ONE TO PRAY FOR THEM! It matter not whether you prefer to meditate on the Joyful, Sorrowful, Glorious .. or .. LUMINOUS mysteries. What matters is that you pray for these souls who have been abandoned by their own families and friends. Moreover, that is also the request of Pope Francis.

[steve86]

I'm sorry, I can only report what I have read in the past. I didn't dream it. It was an exhortation to the children. It was in one of the "Fatima" books, I'm almost certain. I will spend a modest amount of time trying to locate the quotation again.

Remember, the Blessed Mother spoke at length to the children on many of those occasions, far beyond the content of those instructions that were, I believe, meant for the public. The children reported the informal communications to a greater or lesser extent. The statement to which I'm referring was an admonition to the children for their laxity on praying the Rosary on one particular day.

I would never tell another Catholic to not pray the Luminous Mysteries. That's great. I can only report that in our virtual Latin Mass parish (coming together when a priest is available), that the possibility of praying the LMs doesn't come up. We automatically pray the original mysteries with no discussion on any variance from them.

[BlatherNaut]

to snub the sincere prayers of Catholics and shame those who offered them up was unkind and in conflict with his purported love of people

Agree.

[NYer]

I'm sorry, I can only report what I have read in the past. I didn't dream it. It was an exhortation to the children. It was in one of the "Fatima" books, I'm almost certain. I will spend a modest amount of time trying to locate the quotation again.

You may have read it but now, you see exactly what our Blessed Mother instructed.

Steve, I am not singling you out to berate. If anything, you are the only self professed "trad" who had the courage to respond. I simply wish to appeal to rationality.

Dear friend, the purpose of the rosary is to PRAY!!! The meditations themselves are on the life of Christ, as seen through the eyes of Mary. The Luminous Mysteries begin with the Wedding Feast at Cana. Is this Gospel read in "traditional" churches? Does the priest preach a homily on this beautiful event? What a remarkable meditation ... especially through the eyes of our Blessed Mother. How much more biblical can you get?!

I would never tell another Catholic to not pray the Luminous Mysteries. That's great. I can only report that in our virtual Latin Mass parish (coming together when a priest is available), that the possibility of praying the LMs doesn't come up. We automatically pray the original mysteries with no discussion on any variance from them.

Steve, please understand, I am not on a "Luminous Mysteries" campaign. I realize that when someone prays the same meditations for decades, the thought of expanding those prayers may pose a challenge. Again, I appeal to your rational nature. Does it make sense to avoid these events in favor of tradition? It is not insurmountable. Let's take a closer look at the Luminous Mysteries:

THE BAPTISM OF THE LORD - "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased."
THE WEDDING OF CANA - "Do whatever he tells you."
THE PROCLAMATION OF THE KINGDOM - "I have come to call sinners, not the just."
THE TRANSFIGURATION - "This is my beloved Son, listen to Him."
THE INSTITUTION OF THE EUCHARIST - "Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him."

Here's your challenge ... the next time your traditionalist community comes together, ask the priest why these beautiful meditations are not included. I, for one, would be interested in understanding why it is not.

Thank you again, Steve, for the gumption to respond. May our Lord bless and reward you.

[steve86]

you see exactly what our Blessed Mother instructed

Again, those were the public instructions. There were many, many Blessed Words told to the children by Our Lady besides those. Thousands of words, possibly. Many which have never been disclosed. One day Jacinta, Lucia, And Francisco -- I believe all three were present -- were told to during one particular apparition to cease their sloppy recitation and "Say The Rosary properly".