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Meet "Kosher Frank" (Pope says Church cannot engage in proselytism)
The Norvus Ordo Watch ^ | 9/29/2013 | Norvus Ordo Watch Blog

Posted on 10/07/2013 5:36:12 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans

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To: Mrs. Don-o; metmom; boatbums; caww; presently no screen name; smvoice; Greetings_Puny_Humans; ...
First, the remark about proselytism was from the "La Repubblica" interview, which, it turns out, has been discredited for significant fabrication.

Thanks for the info, but you left out some things, such as,

Eugenio Scalfari has said he did show the text to the Holy Father for approval, but it isn’t clear how closely the Pope read it... It [the Vatican] has nevertheless attested to the overall "trustworthiness" of the interview.

The obvious question arises as to why the Pope was not better advised, even if just to check that the interview was being properly recorded. Both this and the interview with La Civilta Cattolica the week before have raised many questions and concerns over the confusion they have caused, even if much of their content has been welcomed. 

But the picture emerging is of a Pope who does whatever he wants with little or no consultation with his closest aides. “The irony is that the Pope is very much into consultation, and consulting across the globe,” said one Vatican source, referring to the international council of cardinals on curial reform that met earlier this week. “But he’s clearly not consulting too much here.”

He’s also viewed as being “totally unpredictable”, preferring to do things arbitrarily and on his own..-http://www.ncregister.com/blog/edward-pentin/vatican-scalfari-interview-misses-details-conflates-facts

Fr. Federico Lombardi, SJ has attested to the overall “trustworthiness” of the Scalfari interview. Nevertheless, some minor, unprecise details have caused a stir among you. One of the details involves hesitation on the part of Pope Francis in accepting the election to the papacy and another, a so-called “mystical experience” of Pope Francis on the night of his election to the Papacy, March 13, 2013.- http://saltandlighttv.org/witness/msg-dario-vigano.php

While stressing the basic “trustworthiness” of a recent blockbuster interview with Pope Francis by Italian journalist Eugenio Scalfari, Fr. Federico Lombardi, the Vatican spokesman, left room on Oct. 2 for the possibility of small imprecisions. -http://ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/dolan-confirms-error-scalfari-interview

Thus your dismissal of this interview, which is not even the conversation the OP here is referring to, as being discredited for significant fabrication, is contrary to the Vatican's view, which sees it as trustworthy, with only some minor, unprecise details being a issue. And the pope himself gave the OK to it. And if he did not read even his own interview well, then that impugns his character (and the judgment of his electors) as a wise watchman over truth and papal reputation. While you can condemn the knee-jerk overreaction of those RCs who criticize the pope, the same is seen in overzealous defending him.

Second, even if Pope Francis had made a remark against proselytism (we don't know if he did or he didn't), that's not the same as being against evangelization.

There is no little warrant for doubting that he made a at least one disparaging remark against proselytism, while that is just what RCs do - incldg here - in seeking to convert their "separated brethren" to Rome!

As for the distinction between proselytism and evangelization, as one of many RC sites says, "Converting Protestants Is A Foremost Catholic MIssion..The tide of modernism greatly affected the perception of Catholics about evangelization. In our contemporary society the term Proselytism has a negative connotation, when people hear this word the first thing that comes into their mind is the act of forcefully converting a person to another belief. But this is not what it meant 2000 years ago during the time of the apostles, proselytism in the early church is the act of evangelizing Jews and Gentiles through preaching of the gospel without any coercion. " http://www.catholiceternaltruth.com/2011/09/converting-protestants-is-foremost.html

But at least Rome does not practice its overt carnal means of persuasion (though it has not rejected the use of force) for false members that it once did with papal sanction.

As even Aquinas counsels,

there are unbelievers who at some time have accepted the faith, and professed it, such as heretics and all apostates: such should be submitted even to bodily compulsion, that they may fulfil what they have promised, and hold what they, at one time, received". — Living Tradition, Organ of the Roman Theological Forum, http://www.rtforum.org/lt/lt119.html

101 posted on 10/08/2013 2:20:31 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: OneVike; ebb tide
As affirmed , Ebb tide is a schismatic RC, who understandably sees modern Rome as inconsistent with the past - which she is, but both being in serious error - and thus rejects V2 and the current pope. See sedevacantism
102 posted on 10/08/2013 2:37:10 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

Well, this is probably the first time I have agreed with GPH.

For all the Francis apologists, just before Francis said that proselytism is NONSENSE, the interviewer made a comment that all of his friends said that the pope will try to convert him. Convert was the operable word that Francis was replying to, so to Francis “proselytize” = “convert”. Francis sees converting others as nonsense. No need to be Catholic folks! Right from a CATHOLIC (?) pope’s mouth!

And why is ANYONE arguing that this is in fact what he (and all of the post-Vatican II “popes”) believes??? These papal claimants are too busy attending non-Catholic services which is condemned prior to Vatican II.

Vatican II= New Church.


103 posted on 10/08/2013 2:41:47 AM PDT by piusv
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To: ebb tide
Don't ignore recent connotative and especially legal shifts in meaning between "proselytism" and "evangelism".

The same can be said of other words which have experienced semantic shift between Church usage and common usage.

"Cult" for instance, has an honorable meaning with in Catholicism; in the words in general, however, it means a deeply erroneous, manipulative and fraudulent sectarian movement.

"Propaganda" is used by the Church to mean simply the dissemination of truths of the Faith ("Propaganda Fide"); in common parlance, it means a program of blatant slant and spin, not in service of the Truth.

I could go on. Ebb tide, for the sake of accuracy we must be knowledgeable about variances in meaning, which may seem over-subtle but which is mass communication (across a variety of audiences) can be decisive and significant.

104 posted on 10/08/2013 3:01:54 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Love, and let life.)
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To: livius

Mine at 103.


105 posted on 10/08/2013 3:03:40 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Love, and let life.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
It is rather tendentious to say "normal" people see proselytism and evangelism as identical. It's not normal (according to a norm), but all too typical, for people to read without attending carefully to connotation; and all too typical for people to assume, always, the worst in anther's meaning.

This is semantic degeneration, and sometimes rash judgment.

106 posted on 10/08/2013 3:07:19 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Love, and let life.)
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To: boatbums; Greetings_Puny_Humans; metmom
Go back and read it yourself -- post 8 Jews going to hell since they do not believe in Jesus Christ?

So is that what you believe boatbums? That Jews who don't believe in Jesus Christ will go to hell?

just getting clarification on your beliefs here

107 posted on 10/08/2013 4:20:07 AM PDT by Cronos (Obama’s dislike of Assad is not based on Assad’s brutality but that he isn't a jihadi Moslem)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans; daniel1212
In the world of Catholicism, where words don't really mean anything, evangelism does not equal proselytism just like venerate doesn't mean worship. Just like dogma isn't dogma except when they say it is. Words are different except when the Catholics would like them to be the same. Then they're the same only based upon our Catholic friends interpretation. Evangelizing to someone who has absolutely no opinion and is open to all views (if there is such a thing) is good. Sharing your faith with someone of another religion in hopes of seeing them come to Christ is very, very bad.

It is a wonderment how actively sharing the faith and wanting to see others come to Christ, to save them from hell, could be construed as evil or malicious. I suppose those who have those COEXIST bumper stickers are either atheists or Catholics.

Don't try to figure it out. Your head will explode. In the end they are only fooling themselves.

108 posted on 10/08/2013 5:02:25 AM PDT by HarleyD (...one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved.)
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To: HarleyD
In the world of Catholicism, where words don't really mean anything, evangelism does not equal proselytism just like venerate doesn't mean worship.

ROTFL!

Evangelizing to someone who has absolutely no opinion and is open to all views (if there is such a thing) is good. Sharing your faith with someone of another religion in hopes of seeing them come to Christ is very, very bad.

Except when you want to get on "The Journey Home" on EWTN.

109 posted on 10/08/2013 5:11:12 AM PDT by Alex Murphy (Just a common, ordinary, simple savior of America's destiny.)
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To: HarleyD
It is a wonderment how actively sharing the faith and wanting to see others come to Christ, to save them from hell, could be construed as evil or malicious.

And yet Catholics have no compunction about telling others that if they are not Catholic, they will go to hell; no salvation outside the Catholic church and all.

Nor does their objection to proselytism keep THEM from *encouraging* others to *swim the Tiber* and run back into the *loving* arms of the Catholic church, or encouraging those seeking who've never been Catholic from checking out the "One True Church".

And of course, it's not malicious or evil when THEY do it.

Hypocrisy abounds.

110 posted on 10/08/2013 5:13:17 AM PDT by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of faith....)
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To: daniel1212
What you're saying is pretty valid, when it comes to what we're hearing about the personal impulsiveness of Pope Francis and the headaches and heartaches this has caused. Some of it may have seemed, to casual observers, charming, after the professorial composition and buttoned-down precision of Benedict's discourses (which I always, and still do, treasure)-- Francis is like the guy always "surging", sometimes brilliantly, sometimes into the rocks.

Much like the very first Bishop of Rome, I should think. Jesus named him "rock," --- presumably meaning "solid" --but he seemed to move this way and that in small avalanches.

As for Aquinas, keep in mind that in his age (as in most ages), serious theological dissent was held to be socially and even politically seditious, understood by all: the accuser would say "This is sedition," and the accused would say "Damn right it is." So Aquinas was supplying more edifying reason for coercing true belief: not just saving the king's and bishop's britches, but primarily to push a person back into the way of salvation: if his body is compelled, his mind may follow.

Many would have derived that from Luke 14:23 - "And the lord said unto the servant, 'Go out into the highways and hedges and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled."

That view fell during the 16th century Wars of Religion, where it drowned in blood: Catholic, Reformed and Anabaptist. No Christian would take that view now.

And besides, Aquinas didn't die for my sins.

111 posted on 10/08/2013 5:28:23 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Love, and let life.)
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To: livius
Proselytism is different from evangelization. Proselytism is what Jehovah’s Witnesses do on your doorstep before you slam the door.

I'll STILL need to hear what the POPE's definition is!


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proselytism

Some Christians define "proselytism" more narrowly as the attempt to convert people from one Christian tradition to another; those who use the term in this way generally view the practice as illegitimate and in contrast to evangelism, which is converting non-Christians to Christianity. An Eastern Orthodox writer, Stephen Methodius Hayes has written: "If people talk about the need for evangelism, they meet with the response, 'the Orthodox church does not proselytize' as if evangelizing and proselytism were the same thing." However the boundary varies from group to group. For instance the Moscow Patriarchate has repeatedly strongly condemned what it describes as Catholic proselytism of Orthodox Christians within Russia and has therefore opposed a Catholic construction project in an area of Russia where the Catholic community is small. The Catholic Church claims that it is supporting the existing Catholic community within Russia and is not proselytizing.[6][7][8] Recently, the Balamand declaration on proselytism was released between the Roman Catholic Church and Orthodox Churches.

Groups noted for proselytism include:

 
 
 
 

112 posted on 10/08/2013 5:31:52 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Cronos; boatbums; Greetings_Puny_Humans
So is that what you believe boatbums? That Jews who don't believe in Jesus Christ will go to hell?

ANYONE who does not believe in Jesus is going to hell. Doesn't matter what their religion or what their heritage.

Peter, a Jew, the guy y'all claim is your first pope, speaking here to his fellow Jews IN JERUSALEM on the day of Pentecost.

Acts 2:36-41 Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.”

Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.” So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.

Peter, a Jew, the guy y'all claim is your first pope, speaking here to his Jewish leaders IN JERUSALEM.

Acts 4:5-12 On the next day their rulers and elders and scribes gathered together in Jerusalem, with Annas the high priest and Caiaphas and John and Alexander, and all who were of the high-priestly family. And when they had set them in the midst, they inquired, “By what power or by what name did you do this?” Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers of the people and elders, if we are being examined today concerning a good deed done to a crippled man, by what means this man has been healed, let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead—by him this man is standing before you well. This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone. And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

Here, Paul, a Jew, Romans 2:25-29 For circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law, but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision. So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? Then he who is physically uncircumcised but keeps the law will condemn you who have the written code and circumcision but break the law. For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.

Romans 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

Paul a Jew, circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, blameless, writing this says.....

Philippians 3:7-9 But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith—

113 posted on 10/08/2013 5:34:19 AM PDT by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of faith....)
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To: Cicero; Greetings_Puny_Humans
Are you saying that all Christians should hate Jews? Or just doing a little more Catholic bashing? What on earth is your point?

Speaking of *What's your point?*, why start out with such a baseless accusation? Trying to start a flame war or what? Just where did GPH even mention Jews in his post? He merely posted an article.

114 posted on 10/08/2013 6:32:56 AM PDT by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of faith....)
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To: Cicero
Yes, Jesus established a New Covenant. But God continues to keep the Old Covenant with the Jews. The Jews were offered the New Covenant, and many or most of them accepted it. But the Old Covenant will remain with those faithful Jews who have chosen to remain where they are.

Christianity fulfilled the promises made to Israel. It did not supersede them. Judaism still remains a religion to which God is faithful—so long as they are faithful to Him.

Wrong on so many levels.

Written by Paul, a Jew, circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, blameless,....

Galatians 2:15-21 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

Galatians 3:10-29 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

To give a human example, brothers: even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.

Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.

Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

115 posted on 10/08/2013 6:44:58 AM PDT by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of faith....)
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To: livius

So what was going on in the Acts of the Apostles?

Seems to me the new definition of evangelism would apply to a newspaper that prints the news but refuses to deliver the paper.


116 posted on 10/08/2013 8:05:37 AM PDT by Romulus
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To: Cronos; Greetings_Puny_Humans; Cicero

LOL good try.

The question was answered quite well by Greetings_Puny_Humans, which negates any probability in the comment “probably”

Plus Cicero’s comment was seeped in ludicrousity.


117 posted on 10/08/2013 10:38:32 AM PDT by Syncro ("So?" - -Andrew Breitbart --The King of All Media RIP Feb 1, 1969 – Mar 1, 2012)
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To: Future Snake Eater
If saying that people who don’t believe in Christ as our Savior will go to Hell—including Jews—is "hate," then Jesus Himself must hate Jews since He’s the One who laid out the rule of Salvation.

Interesting twist of the message that Jesus preached.

Many scriptures show Jesus spreading the message and admonishing people to follow Him to have salvation.

Those that chose, or in the future choose, to reject His offer (that you describe as His "rule of Salvation.") send themselves to hell.

It's their choice.

Jesus didn't hate the Jews, He loved them enough to give His life for their salvation.

If they, or even you, reject the message, the destination is eternal separation from God, now that is hell!

118 posted on 10/08/2013 10:45:56 AM PDT by Syncro ("So?" - -Andrew Breitbart --The King of All Media RIP Feb 1, 1969 – Mar 1, 2012)
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To: OneVike
Agreed! The book of Hebrews says, “God is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.” Other passages also state that he WILL be found when we search for Him “with all your hearts”. I also have read of testimonies of people, who for all practical purposes could not have had the gospel preached to them, YET still have believed in the savior sent from God. We limit God - with whom NOTHING is impossible - by asserting nobody can know the gospel unless a missionary tells them. I will not limit God but believe He keeps His promises and all who seek for Him WILL know the truth. If it is God's will that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, then ANY who He moves to seek Him WILL be rewarded with the truth - even if they live in the deepest, darkest jungles!
119 posted on 10/08/2013 12:53:08 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: vladimir998; Greetings_Puny_Humans
So, it has to be asked: Why are so many Protestant anti-Catholics so wretchedly stupid as to not know the basic definition of words?

The bigger question is why some anti-Protestant Catholics are so wretchedly haughty that they think the Pope can redefine words to fit his own view of the faith and the rest of Christendom MUST go along with it?

120 posted on 10/08/2013 1:03:51 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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