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Questions for “Bible Christians” that they can’t answer - Part 1
Catholic Convert ^ | October 25, 2013 | David Palm and Steve Ray

Posted on 10/26/2013 6:56:10 AM PDT by NYer

There are 38 questions + a few bonus questions. I have split them into two separate posts of 20 and 18 + bonus questions. Are you ready?

1. Where did Jesus give instructions that the Christian faith should be based exclusively on a book?

2. Other than the specific command to John to pen the Revelation, where did Jesus tell His apostles to write anything down and compile it into an authoritative book?

3. Where in the New Testament do the apostles tell future generations that the Christian faith will be based solely on a book?

4. Some Protestants claim that Jesus condemned all oral tradition (e.g., Matt 15:3, 6; Mark 7:813). If so, why does He bind His listeners to oral tradition by telling them to obey the scribes and Pharisees when they “sit on Moses’ seat” (Matt 23:2)?

5. Some Protestants claim that St. Paul condemned all oral tradition (Col 2:8). If so, why does he tell the Thessalonians to “stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter” (2 Thes 2:15) and praises the Corinthians because they “hold firmly to the traditions” (1 Cor 11:2)?

(And why does the Protestant NIV change the word “tradition” to “teaching”?)

6. If the authors of the New Testament believed in sola Scriptura, why did they sometimes draw on oral Tradition as authoritative and as God’s Word (Matt 2:23; 23:2; 1 Cor 10:4; 1 Pet 3:19; Jude 9, 14 15)?

7. Where in the Bible is God’s Word restricted only to what is written down?

8. How do we know who wrote the books that we call Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, Hebrews, and 1, 2, and 3 John?

9. On what authority, or on what principle, would we accept as Scripture books that we know were not written by one of the twelve apostles?

10. Where in the Bible do we find an inspired and infallible list of books that should belong in the Bible? (e.g., Is the Bible’s Table of Contents inspired?)

11. How do we know, from the Bible alone, that the individual books of the New Testament are inspired, even when they make no claim to be inspired?

12. How do we know, from the Bible alone, that the letters of St. Paul, who wrote to first- century congregations and individuals, are meant to be read by us as Scripture 2000 years later?

13. Where does the Bible claim to be the sole authority for Christians in matters of faith and morals?

14. Most of the books of the New Testament were written to address very specific problems in the early Church, and none of them are a systematic presentation of Christian faith and theology. On what biblical basis do Protestants think that everything that the apostles taught is captured in the New Testament writings?

15. If the books of the New Testament are “self-authenticating” through the ministry of the Holy Spirit to each individual, then why was there confusion in the early Church over which books were inspired, with some books being rejected by the majority?

16. If the meaning of the Bible is so clear—so easily interpreted—and if the Holy Spirit leads every Christian to interpret it for themselves, then why are there over 33,000 Protestant denominations, and millions of individual Protestants, all interpreting the Bible differently?

17. Who may authoritatively arbitrate between Christians who claim to be led by the Holy Spirit into mutually contradictory interpretations of the Bible?

18. Since each Protestant must admit that his or her interpretation is fallible, how can any Protestant in good conscience call anything heresy or bind another Christian to a particular belief?

19. Protestants usually claim that they all agree “on the important things.” Who is able to decide authoritatively what is important in the Christian faith and what is not?

20. How did the early Church evangelize and overthrow the Roman Empire, survive and prosper almost 350 years, without knowing for sure which books belong in the canon of Scripture?


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: antiprotestantrant; bible; romancatholicism; sectarianturmoil
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar

It is profitable to include iron in your diet.

From this, do you conclude that a diet consisting only of iron would be the best?


51 posted on 10/26/2013 8:37:32 AM PDT by Jim Noble (When strong, avoid them. Attack their weaknesses. Emerge to their surprise.)
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To: dps.inspect

The Foundation of the church is the Trinity, Christ’s SOLE atonement for sin, Grace that forgives a repentant sinner, Love your neighbor and hate their sins, Christ risen from death to shatter the power of death, and “I am the way the truth and the life and no man comes to the Father except through me.” All the rest falls into the decorations we hang on the church walls. Anything beyond these truths God will reveal to me. Done with this time-wasting and diversive thread.


52 posted on 10/26/2013 8:39:25 AM PDT by 50sDad (A Liberal prevents me from telling you anything here.)
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To: Jim Noble
It is profitable to include iron in your diet. From this, do you conclude that a diet consisting only of iron would be the best?

Have to break my own rule to say, Bravo.

53 posted on 10/26/2013 8:40:37 AM PDT by 50sDad (A Liberal prevents me from telling you anything here.)
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To: Romulus

Who was responsible for maintaining the Christian oral tradition?


54 posted on 10/26/2013 8:41:46 AM PDT by Marie (When are they going to take back Obama's peace prize?)
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To: impimp

I am happy to follow the oral teachings of Jesus and the Apostles. Provide me with a recording and that is exactly what I will do.

Oh, right, the recording is in the scriptures because someone took the time to record the oral teachings in written form.


55 posted on 10/26/2013 8:41:59 AM PDT by taxcontrol
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To: NYer
Jesus Christ's last prayer on earth, before he was delivered over to Pilate, was "And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me; That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me".

"That they all may be one (so) that the world may believe".

I encourage you, brother, to let your Christian presence here to serve as an encouragement to your fellow Christians, to strive to conduct themselves so that we might become worthy of the Master's final prayer for and about us.

56 posted on 10/26/2013 8:43:15 AM PDT by Jim Noble (When strong, avoid them. Attack their weaknesses. Emerge to their surprise.)
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To: faucetman

This attitude is exactly what led me to Judaism. It’s the only religion where I was actively encouraged to question and challenge my teachers and they were well trained enough to deal with it. If I ask a Rabbi a question and he doesn’t have the answer, then it’s his failing and not mine for asking.

This openness had led me to trust my Rabbis and trust my faith. G-d made us curious and intellectual debate strengthens faith - it doesn’t demolish it.


57 posted on 10/26/2013 8:44:35 AM PDT by Marie (When are they going to take back Obama's peace prize?)
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To: NYer
According to Scripture, Christ wanted us to be one (John 17:22-23)

Yes, he did want that, and he wanted it because A) He knows our sins before we commit them, B) He knew, just from the examples of his disciples, our love of sectarianism and division (Master, we saw these casting out demons in your name, and we told them to stop, because they were not one of us", C) He foresaw, correctly, that because of our sin nature and our love of division (and worse, "Master which one of us will sit at your right hand?"), that the world would not believe - and it does not.

Please reflect on what the Master is asking, not of your Protestant brothers and sisters, but of yourself. You can't change them, at least not this way. You can let your light shine, though. Work on that.

58 posted on 10/26/2013 8:51:23 AM PDT by Jim Noble (When strong, avoid them. Attack their weaknesses. Emerge to their surprise.)
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To: NYer; All

I’m confused by your questions .. which have nothing to do with what Jesus did for you on the cross.

You might learn more, if you would just start by finding out who Jesus was, who were the people surrounding him at his birth and death, and what did he tell the Apostles and the public.

So, I recommend a great book, “The Life of Jesus Christ”, by James Stalker. The author was a Pastor of a church in Scotland.

I studied this book in Bible College, and I just recently re-read it several times; the reason being that the times we’re living in now (while waiting for Jesus to return), are very similar to the times Jesus lived in and the times He died in. Really amazing.

This book will tell you more about the person of Jesus, which will make the rest of the Bible more easily read and understood.

Your goal should be to know Jesus .. and not get bogged down with mindless questions which have no bearing whatsoever on your relationship with Jesus Christ.

If you want to discuss this particular book with me .. I’d be happy to join in that discussion.


59 posted on 10/26/2013 8:52:04 AM PDT by CyberAnt (MY AMERICA: "... I'm terrified it's slipping away.")
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To: taxcontrol
I am happy to follow the oral teachings of Jesus and the Apostles. Provide me with a recording and that is exactly what I will do

Why don't you ask Jesus to turn a stone into bread for you, or ask Him to let you jump off a building and get angels to catch you?

You don't make demands of God, He makes demands of you.

If you're still in the place where you need a tape, you have a ways to go.

60 posted on 10/26/2013 8:55:24 AM PDT by Jim Noble (When strong, avoid them. Attack their weaknesses. Emerge to their surprise.)
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To: Jim Noble

Well the good news is that:

1) I am not making demands of god but rather showing for all to see the sophistry of man’s arguments.

2) God has ALREADY provided a recording of Jesus’s and the Apostles oral teaching by recording them in scripture.


61 posted on 10/26/2013 9:01:29 AM PDT by taxcontrol
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To: CyberAnt

bump


62 posted on 10/26/2013 9:03:27 AM PDT by GeronL
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To: NYer

Answer to Bible+(any fanciful whim to nullify the Bible) Christians with a followup question:

>>1) Where did Jesus give instructions the Christian faith should be based exclusively on a book?

The root word for scripture is “script” and it necessarily implies something written. Since 2Tim3:16 says “All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable...,” and John20:31 says “These things are written that you may believe, that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name” seems like a pretty airtight case.

There is no source of revelation from a God, who is an unapproachable light, other than what He chose to reveal himself. Unmoored from that sure certainty, the Bible+___ christians descend into philosophy and mystical miasma and try to “know the mind” of God beyond what He chose to reveal.

That is the theological equivalent of a puppy chasing its own tail.

Followup Question: Where did Jesus tell the pope to wear a frock?

>>2. Other than the specific command to John to pen the Revelation, where did Jesus tell his apostles to write anything down and compile it into an authoritative book?

Question has the same tenor as “other than the ending Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?”

We know that the purity of doctrine was not preserved always and everywhere through the tradition by the living voice but repeatedly corrupted and adulterated. Because “new” and “special” revelations might not restore pure doctrine, God instructed Moses that His doctrine should be comprehended in writing.

God wrote the Decalog (10 commandments) Himself with “His finger” and commanded the writings be put into the ark and be read before all Israel....Deut 31:10-26.

For good measure, God adds in Rev22:18, “I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if ANYONE adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book and if ANYONE takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of the life and in the holy city.....”{Emphasis mine}

Followup Question: Why did the Church run out Gnostics as heretics who claimed they had special knowledge/revelation apart from scripture?

>>3. Where in the New Testament do the apostles tell future generations that the Christian faith will be based solely on a book?

First, this “[a] book” is God-breathed and unlike any other. Next, look at John 20:31. Next, Paul chastises Galatians for falling away from the true gospel and writes that in an epistle. He binds himself to the point of anathemizing himself if he preached a different gospel.

Hypothetically, if Paul began to teach a heresy (arrogate himself to be a pope-type figure to fashion new doctrine willy-nilly based on Aristotle or Scholastics or others), it would have been Paul’s letter to Galatians that would have impeached his pretensions.

In theological disputes with the Jews on anything they said, the Roman church insisted that Jewish arguments must be examined and measured according to the norm of this scripture, in order that whatever agrees with it may be approved and whatever is strange or not in agreement disapproved.

What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.

The Reformers’ position was always exactly that; not the “book only” caricature of an argument.

>>4. Some Protestants claim that Jesus condemned all oral traditions....

The erswhile first pope writes in 1Peter1:16-18, “You were ransomed from the futile ways which you inherited from the tradition of your fathers not with gold or silver but with the precious blood of the Lamb without blemish, Christ; therefore be holy in all your conduct, AS IT IS WRITTEN.” {emphasis added by me}.

The Jews will no more concede that their traditions were corrupted anymore than Rome will concede that their traditions were received from apostles in a broken succession from bishop to bishop.

The Talmudist embellish by claiming Moses received from God not only what he wrote but also a mystical and secret exposition of the law, which he neither wrote nor wanted written but handed down orally and delivered to posterity from hand to hand.

As the prophet wrote in Ecclesiastes1:9, “....there is nothing new under the sun.”


63 posted on 10/26/2013 9:16:58 AM PDT by SolaSolaSola
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To: Jim Noble

Thus, we conclude to include arsenic as well into one’s diet?


64 posted on 10/26/2013 9:18:36 AM PDT by SolaSolaSola
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To: Jim Noble

>>Why don’t you ask Jesus to turn a stone into bread for you....

I don’t need to. Satan already did. Jesus had this nasty habit of saying, “it is written......”

>>You don’t make demands of God, He makes demands of you.

Its precisely because you can’t fulfill the demands God makes of you, Jesus had to die even though he fulfilled on your behalf.

>>If you’re still in the place where you need a tape.....

Isn’t the unbroken succession of oral tradition from apostles to bishop to bishop, a substitute kid’s game of telephone if not a secret “tape recording”?


65 posted on 10/26/2013 9:19:34 AM PDT by SolaSolaSola
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To: impimp; jsanders2001
Steve Ray is not an attorney.
66 posted on 10/26/2013 9:24:31 AM PDT by BlueDragon (Perfect Love cast out all fear...)
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To: DungeonMaster

Um, no. It would be more like preferring the person of Jesus over the book written about Him. You might really rely upon the book, love it and be very glad it was written, and draw from it daily, but you know that Jesus the person is more than the narrative of Jesus.

Hey, at least Christians of every stripe are on a better footing than the muslims, who believe that their actual, physical Book is holy— the pages, the glue, etc., instead of looking higher.


67 posted on 10/26/2013 9:29:35 AM PDT by married21 ( As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.)
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To: 50sDad
The Foundation of the church is the Trinity

Where is this word, "trinity," in the Bible? If its not in the Bible, why do you believe it?

68 posted on 10/26/2013 9:31:17 AM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: Brian Kopp DPM
[...] is the whole idea that the early Apostolic Church fell into error. If it did, Christ lied when He said He would send the Holy Spirit to lead His Church to all Truth and that the gates of Hell would not prevail. If the Apostolic Churches (Orthodox and Catholic) are completely wrong, we all believe in vain, because Christ would have been a liar.

only if your church IS THE Church, which it necessarily cannot be - Follow Yeshua DO as Yeshua did/does, and follow not after the traditions of men.

69 posted on 10/26/2013 9:43:07 AM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: married21
Hey, at least Christians of every stripe are on a better footing than the muslims, who believe that their actual, physical Book is holy— the pages, the glue, etc., instead of looking higher.

So very true. I often loathe Mormon beliefs but even they are infinitely better that muslims.

70 posted on 10/26/2013 9:45:00 AM PDT by DungeonMaster
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To: GreyFriar
The Roman Catholic Church has kept the lineal knowledge and studied the “Doctors of the Church”

RIIIIGHT... following the traditions of men.

71 posted on 10/26/2013 9:46:49 AM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: GeronL
"Read the Bible, Jesus and the Apostles also believed scripture was the answer, not some human authority."

I'll be darned if I can see how you took my comment to mean humans had more authority than scripture. I thought I made it clear it was the other way around...

72 posted on 10/26/2013 9:59:44 AM PDT by Mr Rogers (Liberals are like locusts...)
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To: Mr Rogers

I was agreeing with you


73 posted on 10/26/2013 10:03:20 AM PDT by GeronL
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To: taxcontrol

2 Thessalonians 2:15
John 21:25
Your post is wrong.


74 posted on 10/26/2013 10:03:41 AM PDT by impimp
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To: NYer

Excellent!


75 posted on 10/26/2013 10:04:38 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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Comment #76 Removed by Moderator

To: GreyFriar

Very good and true post.


77 posted on 10/26/2013 10:20:16 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: 50sDad
ROTFLMAO

You, David Koresh, and Joseph Smith, all have the same answer.

The answer that boils down to Self and Self Alone

78 posted on 10/26/2013 10:22:08 AM PDT by Rashputin (Jesus Christ doesn't evacuate His troops, He leads them to victory)
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To: Driabrin; NYer

**We trust the written word because it does not change over time**

Are you sure about that?

How did Luther change the Bible?


79 posted on 10/26/2013 10:22:23 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: roamer_1
only if your church IS THE Church

Scripture says Christ built a Church. Despite fanciful fictional claims to the contrary, only the Catholic and Orthodox Churches can possibly be traced back to the Church scripture says Christ built. If you say that Church fell into error, you make of Christ an impotent liar.

80 posted on 10/26/2013 10:23:58 AM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: Driabrin

**Oral tradition is difficult to pass on exactly; **

Another mistake.

Not after that oral tradition was referenced by the Book of John and the Letters of John and written down by the Early Church Fathers who KNEW the apostles.

Ever think about that? That they got their information first hand from the apostles?


81 posted on 10/26/2013 10:24:24 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: DungeonMaster

Catholics do not hate the Bible.

Why do you say this?


82 posted on 10/26/2013 10:25:01 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: NYer

Every religion has “questions that they can’t answer” ...


83 posted on 10/26/2013 10:25:58 AM PDT by x
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To: GeronL

John also says that it is not all written down.


84 posted on 10/26/2013 10:30:29 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: 50sDad

Where is the word, Trinity, in the Bible? Thank you for proving the value of Holy Tradition.


85 posted on 10/26/2013 10:34:03 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

Because without vilifying fellow Christians by inventing, then assigning, beliefs to them, certain groups can’t feel better about themselves. It’s usually the work of some preacher boy taking the shortest, vilest route to popularity.


86 posted on 10/26/2013 10:38:19 AM PDT by Hegewisch Dupa
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To: Brian Kopp DPM
Scripture says Christ built a Church.

Um, no, actually it doesn't. It says he will build a congregation... an assembly... a discipleship.

Despite fanciful fictional claims to the contrary, only the Catholic and Orthodox Churches can possibly be traced back to the Church scripture says Christ built. If you say that Church fell into error, you make of Christ an impotent liar.

No, in fact, the spirit of antichrist was moving in the Church in John's day... And Yexhua said (I am paraphrasing here) that His Church would be found on the other end of the sword from all y'all. The remnant is always hard to see until it's time.

87 posted on 10/26/2013 10:39:58 AM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: roamer_1

And thus you see no usefulness and/or reject of any and/or all writings of followers of Jesus, other than what was agreed to in the Councils of Nicaea as the writings to be declared “the New Testament?”


88 posted on 10/26/2013 10:40:18 AM PDT by GreyFriar (Spearhead - 3rd Armored Division 75-78 & 83-87)
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To: Romulus
1) 1 Corinthians 11:2: “. . . keep the ordinances, as I delivered {them} to you.” Paul in writing, orders the Corinthians to observes teachings transmitted orally.

2) 2 Thessalonians 2:15: “. . . hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.” Same here. The Bible directs us to oral teachings

3) 2 Thessalonians 3:6: “Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.” Oral teachings are the norm.

4) 1 Corinthians 15:1-3: “Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received.” Again — Paul in writing refers to an oral teaching as authoritative and calls the people to follow it.

5) 1 Thessalonians 2:13: “. . . when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received {it} not {as} the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God.” Oral teaching from the apostles is the equivalent of the word of God.

Get back to me when you can cite any specific content of that unwritten Apostolic tradition that differs from that which was written. You might have a meaningful point then.

The authors of the article have been confronted in debates with the fact that no Christian denies that the Gospel was at first preached and transmitted orally, so their questions in this article amount to mindless repetition of a straw man argument. Since the authors of the article were themselves participants in debates on this subject they have knowledge of the answers that were given and cannot claim ignorance of those answers. The title of this article is therefore a lie. The questions have been answered; they just don't like the answers. If they had any integrity they would at least acknowledge the answers and explain exactly why they think those answers were incorrect. They don't. This piece is nothing but mindless propaganda, to put it mildly.

Reflexively auto-importing current Romanist Tradition anachronistically back into the New Testament era every time you see the word, 'tradition' in the New Testament doesn't pass for logical reasoning or persuasion.

Cordially,

89 posted on 10/26/2013 10:41:57 AM PDT by Diamond (He has erected a multitude of new offices, and sent hither swarms of officers to harass our people,)
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To: roamer_1

All of those churches planted by the Apostles were independent of each other from everything I can find.


90 posted on 10/26/2013 10:42:56 AM PDT by GeronL
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To: roamer_1

“Walking in darkness means being overly pleased with ourselves, believing that we do not need salvation. That is darkness! When we continue on this road of darkness, it is not easy to turn back. ~Pope Francis


91 posted on 10/26/2013 10:49:40 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: BlueDragon

Steve Ray is not an attorney.
...he just plays one on the internets.

Armchair attorney...lol


92 posted on 10/26/2013 10:53:24 AM PDT by jsanders2001
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To: Salvation
Why do you say this?

Many many online conversations about the bible with Catholics that always lead to said Catholics attacking people who read and believe bible.

The belief in things about Mary, the pope, the priesthood, salvation, etc that are opposed to the bible.

93 posted on 10/26/2013 10:53:44 AM PDT by DungeonMaster
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To: Salvation

But thanks for asking.


94 posted on 10/26/2013 10:54:12 AM PDT by DungeonMaster
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To: roamer_1

Speaking if fanciful fictions ....

Your definition of Church does not correspond to that of the early Christians.


95 posted on 10/26/2013 10:55:13 AM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: DungeonMaster

**The belief in things about Mary, the pope, the priesthood, salvation, etc that are opposed to the bible. **

These are false assumptions. Please get the truth.

Where are you getting your information? From a pamphlet? From a preacher (non-Catholic) who hates Catholicism.

Source and specific references, please.


96 posted on 10/26/2013 10:58:38 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: GeronL

Not true. They worked together. Paul’s letters prove that.

All you have to do is check on the Councils held from the Council of Jerusalem onward.


97 posted on 10/26/2013 11:00:25 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation
Please get the truth.

I do, from the bible. Searching the scriptures daily shows very clearly what is not true, who Mary is not, who the Pope is not and what has become of the priesthood.

98 posted on 10/26/2013 11:00:31 AM PDT by DungeonMaster
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To: Salvation

Paul’s letters, the ones that say don’t ask me what to do, look to scripture?


99 posted on 10/26/2013 11:01:24 AM PDT by GeronL
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To: NYer
1. Where did Jesus give instructions that the Christian faith should be based exclusively on a book?

He didn't.

However, where there's conflict between a principle in the Bible and some kind of tradition, the Word of God takes authority.

Funny how so many Catholics are so weak in holding up the Bible as the Word of God.

100 posted on 10/26/2013 11:02:22 AM PDT by what's up
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