Posted on 11/21/2013 11:02:12 AM PST by redleghunter
Paul calls for an examination in another passage and I want you to notice this. It's the last chapter of II Corinthians, Chapter 13, and verse 5, I want you to note what it says, Il Corinthians 13:5, just the first sentence, "'Examine yourselves, whether you are in the faith; (prove it, is what he's saying) prove yourselves." You say to someone "are you a Christian?" 'Yes.' What do you base that on? 'Well so many years ago I made a decision.' That means nothing. The Bible never verifies anybodies salvation on the basis of the past, It's always on the basis of the present, And if you don't have the evident proof of real salvation in your life now, there's a very real possibility you're not a Christian at all, no matter what happened in the past. So examine yourself, to se whether you are in the faith prove yourself. You say John' how do do that? How do I know if I'm really a Christian? I believe! (Maybe you've even been baptized.) I go to church, I, think I'm a Christian.' Look with me Matthew Chapter 5 and let's find out. When Jesus had arrived on the scene, the Jews had already decided what right-living was all about. They had already built their own code. They had already developed their own system, and they had it pretty cu and dried and pretty well laid out that this is what it was to be holy, and it was all external, it was all self-righteousness and works, and Jesus came and shattered that thing and He said I want to give you a new standard for living.
(Excerpt) Read more at gty.org ...
Absolutely no argument. That verse is VERY clear in John 6 and in many other places in the Gospels. Yet repentance "happens." That is why I called it a work done by God. It is part of being exposed to God's Holiness. His Work as He washes us clean in the Son's Blood. The shadow in the OT is Aaron and his sons putting their hands on the sin offering.
The old fashioned way. Not using a boxed mix but a recipe, (maybe) like Grandma used to do.
Get the flour, the eggs, the butter, the baking soda, the salt, etc and assembling it yourself.
Me? Can't even get a box mix to turn out right more often than not. I stay away from cakes. I do cookies instead.
Yes they do, Iscool...yes they do...:)
Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours,
smvoice
The funny part is, Col 2 is the best defense there is for keeping the Torah - All one need do is change perspective - the narrative is being made to new converts to a sect of Judaism... Rather than converted to the Greek/Roman thing we have now... suddenly it means something entirely different, eh?
Romans 14:5-8
Instructions on fasting are supposed to tell me something?
Hebrews 10:1
We are in agreement. The Torah is not about making one 'perfect', nor has it ever been.
Galatians 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
Here it is... Paul is always talking about living beyond the law - not without it... but beyond it.
Otherwise, I just descend into legalism.
It is legalism to keep the Torah? LOL!
Rom 7:7 - I would not have known sin except through the law.
Rom 3:20 - by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:31 - Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.
Rom 8:6-7 - For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against Elohim; for it is not subject to the law of Elohim, nor indeed can be.
Acts 15:22-29 Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They sent Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brothers, with the following letter:
“The brothers, both the apostles and the elders, to the brothers who are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia, greetings. Since we have heard that some persons have gone out from us and troubled you with words, unsettling your minds, although we gave them no instructions, it has seemed good to us, having come to one accord, to choose men and send them to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will tell you the same things by word of mouth. For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.”
And you want to put us back under the Law? Not thanks. I am freed from that.
Put yourself under bondage if you will. If God has convicted you about doing that for yourself, have at it.
But don't go around demanding that others follow you. That immediately crosses the line into legalism and then judging whether others are Christian or not because they don't meet your standards or expectations of what a Christian should live like.
Who told you that? Three of the seven feasts require attendance at the Temple. And there has always been allowance for those who are far off or unable to attend. How do you suppose a poor Jew living in Rome or Greece. who couldn't attend the Temple would comply?Do you suppose that YHWH would strike the poor down dead for being unable?
Great info. Overlay the above with the epistle of Hebrews and it matches.
Thank you. It is my opinion that Protestant tradition rightly stripped the catlick baptism of it's voodoo - But that left them a baptism without a purpose... Looking before the Greek/Roman baptism to the mikvah certainly fleshes out it's purpose, and lends another dimension to 'One Baptism'.
Rev 3:9: “Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.”
and the same council said they would learn as they go along, because Moses is preached there - They were learning in the synagogue. I asked you before, why do you suppose they only required three of the Noachide items? Noah is BEFORE Melchizedek. There is *no* precedent for only requiring *ANY* man (the Noachide Laws are for all mankind, without a doubt) less than the Noachide Law. The reason only three were given is that this is obviously the bare minimum, and that these initiates would learn as they went - To include Noachide AND Moses, because BOTH are Torah, and BOTH would be taught in the synagogue.
And you want to put us back under the Law? Not thanks. I am freed from that.
Not according to the scriptures. And not according to Yeshua. How does one 'go and sin no more' without knowing what sin is? How does one 'trust and obey' if there is nothing to do in order to obey? The OP is right on. There IS obedience. What does that look like?
Put yourself under bondage if you will. If God has convicted you about doing that for yourself, have at it.
1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
2Jn 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
"But none of those things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish MY COURSE with joy, and the MINISTRY, WHICH I HAVE RECEIVED OF THE LORD JESUS, TO TESTIFY THE GOSPEL OF THE GRACE OF GOD"(Acts 20:24).
"For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God, which is given me to you-ward. How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery"..(Eph. 3:2,3).
"And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles..."(Gal. 2:2). "And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, PERCEIVED THE GRACE THAT WAS GIVEN TO ME..."(Gal. 2:9).
"According to the GRACE of GOD which is GIVEN UNTO ME, as a wise masterbuilder, I HAVE LAID THE FOUNDATION." (1 Cor. 3:10).
If Paul's ministry was the dispensation of the grace of God, and the good news (gospel) of the grace of God, and the laying of the foundation of grace, and was given directly to him by Christ...and was a secret, a mystery hid in God from the foundation of the world until revealed to Paul...then when is the very earliest the gospel of the grace of God could have been preached? When is the earliest that "but now" could have begun? If it didn't begin until Paul, and Paul was the first to receive it by revelations from Christ, and Paul wasn't even saved until Acts, Chapter 9, then the dispensation of the grace of God, the good news of the grace of God could NOT have begun before Acts, chapter 9. If it began before, then it began before Paul was saved, then Paul was NOT the first, then God revealed it before He said He revealed it to Paul, and that makes God,,,what...?
So where does the Pentecost message, Philip and the eunuch, everything that happened before Paul was saved fit into the timeline? They would of NECESSITY HAVE to belong to "time past". Which is exactly the point of Peter's sermon and Philip's preaching to the eunuch. They do NOT mention Christ's blood being our remission of sin. They mention Christ as Messiah, coming back to reign, restoring the kingdom to Israel, and Israel being the nation of priests that God promised they would be.
They simply did not know this mystery, hid in God, from the foundation of the world, until it was revealed to them, by who? Paul. (Gal. 2:9).
Many of us know how to rightly divide the word and understand which passages are addressed to us in this age of grace and which are for our understanding of prophecy. Those applying to the nation of Israel during the seven year tribulation and foretelling what is to come are given for our understanding.
From Jesus own Words He did not abolish the moral laws which the Holy Spirit writes on our hearts (as you have pointed out). I know you are not advocating that (abolishing the moral laws), there are only fringe antinomians (still among us today) who do that.
You were correct that in many ways we are talking past each other.
Point in case is thinking those who love to study and understand the Torah are trying to bring legalism and works to saved by Grace through faith. I don't see it like that at all. For me, once saved by God's Grace no works I do or anyone other human can do will "earn" them salvation. Once saved by Grace there is 'work' to do as a child of God who cries "Abba Father." It is not works for salvation or to keep it etc. It is the work we were fashioned to do when becoming new creatures:
Luke 2:
“The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few; therefore beseech the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest. 3 Go; behold, I send you out as lambs in the midst of wolves.
At a bare minimum we are charged to be seed sowers and share the Gospel.
The second point I would like to make is we who are saved by God's Grace have become a new creature. We become followers of Jesus Christ. He is our Lord and Savior. As our Lord we do what He tells us to do and obey His Words. Doing so is not works based salvation. We love Him so we as His bond-servants want to emulate Him, please Him and the best way to do that is to keep those things He said He wanted His disciples to do. That is not works based salvation. At the very least it is honoring Him.
A way to look at it is the saved pound dog. The pound dog is saved from the dog catcher's needle of death by someone who pays for them and adopts them. When that pound dog goes home with his owner they turn out to be the most thankful and obedient pets in the world. They somehow 'know' that if it was not for the owner paying for them and adopting them, they would be dead. Well that is my stab at a similtude that will most likely get taken out of context:)
So for me when someone says "study the Torah" AND most importantly study the Actual Words of Christ in the Gospels and elsewhere: that means to me Jesus Christ, who I have confessed with my mouth and believed in my heart as my Lord and Savior tells us how He wants us to be in our relationship with Him and fellow believers and mankind. That is not legalism unless I replace my liberty given in Grace for a man-made understanding of self-sanctification and also if I try to project and require it on others. That is the Synagoge of Satan right there.
But striving to be the best foot soldier for my General Jesus Christ by following His orders is not legalism. A good soldier must know the field manuals to be an effective and productive soldier. Again, not legalism it is loving my Master and Savior who I know did it all, paid the full price, went the full distance and cried out "IT IS FINISHED."
Ephesians 2:10
King James Version (KJV)
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
2Jn 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
That right there came directly from Jesus in John's Gospel. The above should be "discipleship 101" for the newly saved. Also not bad parenting advice:)
There is a two fold message here. The commandments "Big 10" as you call them is what God uses to convict us we are sinners and are doomed. Jesus (Yeshua) elaborates on this by saying "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." Right there we are most certainly doomed because no way are we EVER going to come near or a sniff to the edge of The Father's Perfection. Thus, the law is used to convict the sinner to set their sites on Mt Zion instead of Mt Sinai. And God leads us there as well, all His doing.
The second part of the message John is giving us is that the same law that condemned us and we were in rebellion against and we hated because we hated the Light of it; is now our tutor, mentor and guide to pleasing God (that is not a work unto salvation). We are no longer under the condemnation of the law and no lonter fear it, we now love it because we know it is Holy because it came from God's Heart, and now that we are a new creature we love it because He loved us first. The fire (the law) no longer burns us in judgement, it is now like a fire place keeping us warm in our homes, a companion not an enemy.
So THAT’S what a sponge cake is!!!
Agree...It would have been revealed during that three year period that Paul spent with the Risen Jesus...Even yet in Acts 26 Paul was not teaching the gospel of Eph 2...
When did Paul pen Romans? I think it was within 3 years of Ephesians. I guess it depends when we see the start of the Church. Is it Acts 28? Or Acts 13 where Paul declares for the first time that he is going to the Gentiles like he did in Acts 28. I have to ask for the timeline because no one has put a stake in the ground where the Gospel or dispensation changed. Was the mystery revealed during the first prison years in Rome? I think this point is important because we would have to assume Paul established churches under one dispensation or gospel and others under another. Or did he plant these churches and then rewrite epistles superseding the previous?
Thanks for posting this information. Is it your understanding the new dispensation of Grace began in Acts 20 or 13 or 28?
Did the dispensation of Grace begin before or after 1 Corinthians?
Were there Gentile/Jewish mixed churches under the older kingdom dispensation which Paul planted and then were incorporated in the new dispensation of Grace?
I am trying to determine your understanding of the time period this changed and people stopped water baptizing and doing works towards salvation.
Thanks
Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, (1 Corinthians 15.1-4)
Do you see the difference in Paul’s gospel? Where is repentance? Where is baptism? They are not there. What is present is an emphasis on belief. Paul’s gospel was that Christ died for your sins and rose from the the dead. Will you believe it? If so, you are saved. This is God’s promise.
Peter’s gospel to the Jews was that they had murdered their Messiah and needed to repent and be baptized (Acts 2.36-38, 41). Did Peter or the Twelve preach Christ crucified for salvation? No. The cross for Peter was something to be repented of, not a message of hope and salvation (Acts 2.22-24; 2.36-39; 3.13-20).
Not until the Jerusalem Council (c. 49-51 A.D.) did this begin to change. After much discussion and dissent, Peter, who apparently had remained quiet during the debate (what a character change!) made a remarkable statement:
After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe.” And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. ”Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? ”But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.” All the people kept silent, and they were listening to Barnabas and Paul as they were relating what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles. (Acts 15.8-12)
At the critical moment, God the Holy Spirit moved Peter to recall the time he went to the house of Cornelius, the Roman centurion, a Gentile, many years before (Acts 10.1-48). Peter, who had been listening to the arguments, rose to Paul’s defense in the fierce debate over whether Gentiles had to be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses to be saved. Had it not been for Peter, Paul would have faced severe opposition from both believers and unbelievers. What is most remarkable is Peter’s statement: “But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.” What a switch! Jews saved like Gentiles, not Gentiles like Jews? Amazing! What was the result? The Jews who had argued against Paul became silent and listened to Paul and Barnabas.
(All of) This stuff comes from here and many number of other sources on bible doctrine...I stumbled across this site just tonight...
I don't know that anyone knows the exact timeline but some seem to think they are close...One thing is clear to me, there was a transition between Pentecost and the full fledged Gentile church...
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