“Beginning at Jerusalem. And you know that “repentence” i.e. change of mind from not hitting the mark of Jeweism’s rules” didn’t apply to the Jews and “remission of sins” by grace didn’t apply to both Jews and Gentiles how?
>> Here in Acts 11 where Peter recounts the Acts 10 Cornelius conversion:<<
I covered that in my previous post. Peter obviously still thought with a Jewish mind.
>> Then here in Acts 17 we have Paul addressing a Gentile Greek pure audience at the Areopagus saying this about repenting:<<
“a Gentile Greek pure audience”? Well, let’s see.
Acts 17: Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews: 2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, 3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ. 4 And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.
So let’s recap. Paul went into the synagogue of the Jews and there were “devout Greeks” in that synagogue of the Jews. You do realize that the Greeks would NOT have been in that synagogue of the Jews unless they had converted to Judaism right? “Gentile Greek pure audience indeed”. NOT. Those people in that synagogue of the Jews were all of the Jewish religion thus under their rules and laws.
>> Then Paul again in Acts 20:<<
Acts 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
Repentance for the Jews and faith for both Jews and Gentiles?
>> Acts 26
Covered in my previous post. Addressing a Jewish audience because of Jewish accusations.
>> Romans 2:4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?
Let’s look at who Paul was talking to there.
Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
These were people who had “knew God” and had not “retained God”. The needed to “change their mind” or repent. In fact in verse 21 he says “Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God”
>> 2 Corinthians 7:9<<
Once again, read the previous chapters that lead up to that. He was talking to believers who had become “unequally yoked together with unbelievers”. They needed to “change their minds” or repent from practices and beliefs that they had that he hadn’t taught.
>> 2 Corinthians 12:21<<
One more time. Talking to those same Corinthians.
>>2 Timothy 2:25<<
Speaking about a group that was taking on the wrong practices again.
>>Hebrews 6:1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,<<
What were those “dead works”? Following some rules again? Maybe even Jewish rules?
>>2 Peter 3:9<<
Who was Peter talking to again? That’s right! The Jewish exiles in other countries.
>>Revelation<<
What did we say about not “rightly dividing” and never understand what is being said in Revelation?
That was your assertion when I presented Acts 26 and Paul preaching to Jews and Gentiles repentance. You said that when Paul preached this that the repent applied to Jews only and the faith applied to Gentiles only.
Or is it that you view that the gospel spoken by Jesus to His disciples for "all nations" was changed or modified when He revealed "the mystery" to Paul?
When we began this discussion various posters said Paul was given revelations (true) and that Jesus Christ revealed to Paul "the mystery." It was put forward that this mystery was a gospel of Grace not previously known and that those Jews who were believers and present since Pentecost were under a different program than grace. They had to repent where the Gentiles did not have to repent. The timeframe one poster gave was this new program or dispensation happened around the epistle of Ephesians.
Most NT scholars (a sample of 37 total) put Ephesians between 60 AD and 62 AD (ref. errantskeptics.org-Dr. Gary Butner). So for the sake of establishing a stake in the ground we can say the average of 61 AD. The Jerusalem council and Cornelius' conversion were roughly 10 years earlier in 50AD, some say perhaps as early as 48 AD. When presenting scriptures that showed grace was being preached earlier, the position changed on this thread for an earlier date. Another fact presented is Romans was penned by Paul at an earlier time (2-3 years) than Ephesians and Romans chapter 3 clearly preaches grace. So the position of a new dispensation at the time of Ephesians was abandoned by most here.
Then the position was raised that there were two programs or gospels because God was giving the Jews a second chance to usher Him in as King. When I and others asked when God gave His final "set aside of Israel" ending the kingdom program and began the grace program we were told Acts 28 where Paul tells the Jews this:
28 “Therefore let it be known to you that the salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will hear it!” 29 And when he had said these words, the Jews departed and had a great dispute among themselves. 30 Then Paul dwelt two whole years in his own rented house, and received all who came to him, 31 preaching the kingdom of God and teaching the things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ with all confidence, no one forbidding him.
When I and others pointed out that (1) Paul in Acts 28 kept preaching the kingdom of God and that (2) Paul had a very same encounter with Jews in Acts 13, the timeline by others shifted to the left (earlier again).
At this point it was put forward that there were two simultaneous programs or dispensations going on. One for Jews and one for Gentiles. Those holding that view now said the mystery of the Gentile grace dispensation or program was given to Paul between the day of his conversion and up to the three years he spent in Arabia. That would put us around the time of Acts 9 & 10.
Linked to this particular subject (two programs) was roughly the same time of the conversion of Cornelius and his household (Gentiles). I asked what gospel Peter preached to the Gentiles and was told it was works based and that was the same gospel preached of repentance and works at Pentecost (Acts 2) and on the portico of Solomon (Acts 3). When I pointed out that Peter calls the gospel received by Cornelius as grace and the same one they (Jews) received, I was told the Jerusalem council was formed to dispute the two gospels or programs or dispensations. When I posted the actual words of the council using Peter's own words this is what we see. Acts 15:
“Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”
From this I pointed out that Peter claims no distinction and both parties, Jews and Gentiles, are saved "through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ." This however resulted in another shift of when the programs or dispensations or gospels changed or sharpened.
Then the shift in opinion became that the gospel or program of repentance+works+faith was gradually phased out and we cannot put a "definite" date or event other than Paul talks about grace in his epistles and that must be when the change happened. So the timeline shifts again for some posters ten years future from the Jerusalem council even though Peter states saved by grace at the very same council.
Then I offered to revisit the point in post Resurrection history where Israel (the Jews) were finally rejected or set aside and ushered in the new program of grace. Again a mixed bag of answers so I offered Matthew 23:
37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”
I could have presented an earlier chapter and time in Matthew as in chapter 12, but the passage directed towards Jerusalem in chapter 23 is clear and are the Words of the Master Himself. We see in Matthew 16 how Christ has set aside Israel and her leaders to establish the foundation for His church and that is Peter's confession. Which would lead us to believe all who are part of the Body of Christ will make the same confession.
I was told however, that Jesus really did not mean Jerusalem in that chapter 23 passage but was addressing the Pharisees. I will let everyone examine the text for themselves and see if Pharisee=Jerusalem.
Over 400 posts thusfar for the thread and there is no agreement or certainty on when (space and time) or where in the Acts of the Apostles chapter or passage in context, when this Jewish kingdom faith+works+repentance ends for saved by grace through faith. Several scripture references by me and others showed there is no difference at all in the gospel delivered to Jew or Greek (Gentile). However the contention then became repenting and being baptized are somehow works and have no place in a grace gospel. When pointed out that Paul and Peter both preached repentance, the answers were "yes but the repentance part was for Jews only."
Then I thought it best for all of us to return to the Source of the Gospel...Jesus Christ. I posted again from Luke 24:
“Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And you are witnesses of these things. 49 Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high.”
I pointed out that Jesus said in the above passage that the apostles were directed to preach Christ crucified, Risen "and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations..." I bolded "all nations" every time I posted Luke 24. So the conversation shifted to if the command above by Jesus was either side stepped by the apostles (surely not!) or superceded by Jesus when He gave revelations to Paul (surely not!). And I say surely not! Because we know Jesus said "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away."
Therefore that is my position based on examining the Scriptures. Jesus gave us the gospel in Luke 24 (as posted above). He opened the minds of the apostles to understand this message from the scriptures (Isaiah 53 is one example). Grace is no mystery to us today nor was it a mystery to Peter, the 11 and the Jewish believers. They received and accepted the same gospel preached by Paul before Paul was converted. The apostles knew full well that Grace=The Finished Work of Jesus Christ: the torture, shed blood, death, burial, resurrection and Ascension to be seated at the Right Hand of the Father. That same gospel was preached from Pentecost and following with no break in program. The scriptures support this and are consistent on this one gospel, one program for the Body of Jesus Christ in the Church age.
If someone would like to further the debate and take up the cause that Jesus Christ changed His message of salvation after two decades of adding souls to His Body I will await those comments. If someone would like to further the debate and take up the cause that Jesus Christ in Luke 24 is preaching a gospel only for the circumsized (the Jews) and that the 4 Gospels are only for those early Jews, I will await those comments. Why? Because the debate has been boiled down to whether or not Jesus Christ meant what He said:
"Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away."
Perhaps those who adhere to a two church dispensation, mid Acts or later dispensation should choose a "champion" to further the cause. The above was necessary to point out I and others have dealt with multiple views that have shifted frequently thoughout the thread.
I know no one is questioning each other's salvation. Alas, for the clear message saved by Grace through faith we here in the 21st century are on the "right hand side" (space and time) to the debate at hand. However, I must caution, we are putting doubts on Jewish brothers and sisters who actually met and walked physically on earth with Christ and saying that perhaps they did not drink from the same Well which gives us Living Water. That is why I continue, for them for as I examine the Word, they received the same gospel with all its Fullness, Joy and Security.