Posted on 12/27/2013 8:33:08 PM PST by Colofornian
“It isn’t just hard to understand, wresting with Scripture arrogantly can lead to destruction. So many of the Protestant persuasion would say there can’t possibly be any harm in reading Scripture alone. Scripture Itself bears a warning. If every believer is an authority on Scripture because of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, then the Spirit can’t hold a coherent thought. How can we possibly profess one Spirit in one Faith when we fractalize the Church through private interpretation. To paraphrase “The Incredibles”... if everyone’s in charge, then no one is.”
Yet, all you’re doing is asking us to accept a slave-master, rather than to serve God. Heed the words of Cyril of Jerusalem instead:
“Have thou ever in your mind this seal, which for the present has been lightly touched in my discourse, by way of summary, but shall be stated, should the Lord permit, to the best of my power with the proof from the Scriptures. For concerning the divine and holy mysteries of the Faith, not even a casual statement must be delivered without the Holy Scriptures; nor must we be drawn aside by mere plausibility and artifices of speech. Even to me, who tell you these things, give not absolute credence, unless thou receive the proof of the things which I announce from the Divine Scriptures. For this salvation which we believe depends not on ingenious reasoning , but on demonstration of the Holy Scriptures.” (Cyril of Jerusalem, Cat. Lecture 4, Ch. 17)
Am I? Where have I called you to accept a slave-master? You're quoting a bishop and Doctor of the Catholic Church to try to disprove... what?
“Am I? Where have I called you to accept a slave-master? You’re quoting a bishop and Doctor of the Catholic Church to try to disprove... what?”
That you’re wrong about the scripture not being the rule of faith for Christians.
So you believe in Sola Scriptura?
“So you believe in Sola Scriptura?”
Put two and two together:
” Even to me, who tell you these things, give not absolute credence, unless thou receive the proof of the things which I announce from the Divine Scriptures.”
What do you think this quote suggests about my views of the scripture? Do some critical thinking.
Is there reason to get testy with someone who is exploring a topic of conversation with you?
” Even to me, who tell you these things, give not absolute credence, unless thou receive the proof of the things which I announce from the Divine Scriptures.”
Yes, and St Paul told his readers to search the Scriptures for the veracity of his testimony. Which Scriptures? Well, it should be fairly obvious that he wasn't talking about the New Testament yet as it hadn't yet been compiled and codified. Just as Jesus opened the eyes of the Apostles on the road to Emmaus of all that the Old Testament proclaimed of the Christ, so St Paul exhorts his readers to open the pages and see the truth of his testimony. That is all that is being said here by the Bishop of Jerusalem.
My view of Scripture is that It is the inerrant Word of God. However, It is finite and tells only a specific story. Scripture proclaims Itself to be incomplete at the end of the Gospel of John. That is because the Word of God is a man, Jesus Christ, not just a book. The Book has a purpose but It is not a Catechism of all things, and proclaims just that. The Church is the one given authority to preach, teach and baptize.
P.S. It’s polite when you’re asked a “yes or no” type question to give one of those in your answer. Expound if you must, but a direct answer is helpful. Telling someone they should just put things together on their own and continue obliquely is rather the opposite of polite.
Where have you been? The entire Catholic Mass is centered on Christ.
The Mass is divided into two parts — the Liturgy of the Word, readings from the Old Testament, Psalms, usually a letter of St. Paul and a Gospel from the New Testament. Then the priest gives a homily on one of those readings — most often, the Gospel. (The Word of Christ.)
The second part of the Mass is loaded with Scripture as the priest celebrates the Eucharist and the people come forth to receive the transubstantiated Body and Blood of Christ.
Luther was wrong is changing his views; had he worked inside of the Church to correct what he saw as errors, who knows what would have happened?
You are aware, aren’t you, that the Bible came from the Catholic Church and that before Luther, everyone was a Catholic?
I really need to head to bed. If your next challenge is the usual off-roading into Catholic doctrines, I invite you to my homepage where I have linked some previous discussions and answers on these topics. We do tend to go round and round without resolution on here.
Good night.
So you would believe that Satan is Christ’s brother?
Sick!
“Yes, and St Paul told his readers to search the Scriptures for the veracity of his testimony. Which Scriptures? Well, it should be fairly obvious that he wasn’t talking about the New Testament yet as it hadn’t yet been compiled and codified.”
Athanasius predates Cyril, but both lived in the 4th century:
Here he is on the New Testament canon:
“Again, it is not tedious to speak of the books of the New Testament. These are: the four Gospels, according to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. After these, The Acts of the Apostles, and the seven epistles called Catholic: of James, one; of Peter, two, of John, three; after these, one of Jude. In addition, there are fourteen epistles of Paul the apostle, written in this order: the first, to the Romans; then, two to the Corinthians; after these, to the Galatians; next, to the Ephesians, then, to the Philippians; then, to the Colossians; after these, two of the Thessalonians; and that to the Hebrews; and again, two to Timothy; one to Titus; and lastly, that to Philemon. And besides, the Revelation of John.” (Athanasius, Thirty-Ninth Festal Epistle, A.D. 367.)
Cyril gives the same list, though he leaves out Revelation. Both leave out the Apocrypha.
Ignatius, Polycarp and Irenaeus all know of the 4 Gospels, and quote from the vast majority of the New Testament, except maybe for 2 Peter and Jude.
So when Cyril is talking about the “scriptures,” he’s referring to that text you claim is “not enough,” didn’t exit, but of which he turns us to:
“Do not then believe me because I tell thee these things, unless thou receive from the Holy Scriptures the proof of what is set forth: for this salvation, which is of our faith, is not by ingenious reasonings, but by proof from the Holy Scriptures”
“If your next challenge is the usual off-roading into Catholic doctrines, I invite you to my homepage where I have linked some previous discussions and answers on these topics.”
You don’t know me very well, do you?
God also had a mother and father, huh?
My husband and I may become Gods ourselves with our own spirit children, huh?
And you think God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit is weird?
Don’t fret. You can still be saved........by buying an indulgence.....
Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep. I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one. (John 10:7-15, 27-30)
Sounds like she DID listen to Christ just like Luther did and many millions of other genuine Christians because she followed Jesus. The church Jesus established is His body of which all Christians are living stones being built up into a SPIRITUAL house. (I Peter 2:5). We follow Christ, we don't follow the church we ARE the church! Good grief backatcha!
Nope! You got it right. ;o)
If you paid attention (or perhaps read her book like I did) you would know they watched the movie “Luther” they did not become Lutherans. Lynn and Mike (friends of mine) attend an Evangelical church in Florida.
Neither of those verses refer to the Catholic (big C) church. SMH. Stop smoking your stash.
So, when the Apostle Paul said he didn't shrink from declaring all that God wants us to know (Acts 20:27) and further stating that, in the spiritual warfare ALL Christians are to wage, the Sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God, is the ONLY offensive weapon in our arsenal, we should not bother because the Catholic Church will fight it for us? Are we to ignore what God HAS revealed as the rule of the faith when the Catholic Church contradicts or adds to God's word doctrines that He did NOT reveal are part of the faith all Christians MUST hold?
The church is NOT some organization high and lifted up above the sheep, the church IS the sheep and we are ALL living stones being built up into the spiritual house which is Christ's body (I Peter 2:5). ALL Scripture is given by inspiration of the Holy Spirit and holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. Are we to ignore what God has said - which He has given ALL believers the same indwelling Spirit to teach us all things - and trust fallible, sinful men to tell us what is or is not the truth?
I can see why the Catholic Church wants to lower the esteem for Sacred Scripture - it gives them license to make it up as they go along. Not that different than what Joseph Smith did. Now I wonder who was his example for that?
For the record, Lynn did not title the article, she gave it a different title, CT changed it to the current (more sensational) title.
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