Posted on 01/12/2014 7:49:32 PM PST by restornu
I did not delete post 13. Post 13 was an accurate representation of your discussion methods. You would rather sling metaphorical "poo" then discuss. That's a tactic that's pretty clear to anyone who has followed your posts...
I employ sarcasm where it's needed. When people state or imply that not believing in a creed that was developed over 300 years ago disqualifies them as "Christians" then it's appropriate to sarcastically point out that this would disqualify every single person in the bible. Sarcasm points out the vapidity and non-logical premise of the "you're not a Christian unless you believe in the creed I believe that was developed centuries after the Lord died" attitude.
So do you believe there are errors in scripture? Was God not able to preserve His word for us today as we have them a available in the Hebrew and Greek texts?
I believe there are errors and bias in the translation of scriptures. I believe that things were added to the original inspired scriptures. And I think it's been going on for a long time.
2Pe 3:16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
Matthew 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Matthew 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
Matthew 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Matthew 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
***
May the Savior, Jesus Christ heal you...
Then you have nothing to base your beliefs on that is stable. The minute you declared that the Greek and Hebrew texts we have today are not trustworthy you have destroyed any and all foundation for your beliefs. If you can’t back up your beliefs with scripture you have nothing.
On the other hand I have complete faith that God preserved intact he portions of HIS word He wanted us to have. And in that word is this.
1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
So once again I post from scripture and you say it is I that needs to be healed? Did you know that Satan also hates when scripture is quoted?
Well, you've got part of this down... (Now all you have to do is come to the conclusion that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is more united than, say, a man and wife...and you can make some great progress!)
No matter how you slice it and dice it NOBODY in the bible, including Jesus Christ, beleived the holy spirit was a separate "person" that stood along the father and the son.
(See John 14:16-17, 26 and John 16:13-15 at post #363 and let Jesus speak for Himself)
Paul sends greeting from God. He does not include a person called the "holy spirit". There is no way Paul was a trinitarian.
(I've already cited Paul's trinitarian blessing in 2 Cor. 13:14; and I already mentioned in post #238 that just because only the Father and Holy Spirit are mentioned in passages like 1 Cor. 3:16 and Acts 20:27-28...and others...it doesn't mean that God has to follow a neat formula every time He's mentioned!...that would be legalism...and let's see...you are UCG...which practices legalism...so I guess that all goes hand-in-hand!)
You cited 1 Thess. 1:1...just keep going:
1 Thess. 1:5: ...because our gospel came to you not simply with words but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and deep conviction. You know how we lived among you for your sake. [My note: if the Holy Spirit was merely impersonal "divine power," then it would have been quite redundant for Paul to have written, "with power, with the Holy Spirit"]
1 Thessalonians 1:6 You became imitators of us and of the Lord, for you welcomed the message in the midst of severe suffering with the joy given by the Holy Spirit.
It looks plainly like the Holy Spirit and the Lord Jesus is mentioned in v. 6; but no Father...oops! There goes your anti-Holy Spirit "formula"
You reference Romans 1:7, yet you skipped over Romans 1:4: and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.
You cited Col. 1:2, keep going to Col. 1:9: For this reason, since the day we heard about you, we have not stopped praying for you. We continually ask God to fill you with the knowledge of his will through all the wisdom and understanding that the Spirit gives
(Sorry, but impersonal forces aren't omniscient with wisdom and understanding...)
You cited Eph. 1:2, keep going to verses 13-17: And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit...I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. (vv. 13,17)
There ya go, another Trinity reference in v. 17...and like Col. 1:9, an impersonal force is not wise.
You mention Gal. 1; The Holy Spirit is referenced 14 times in Gal. 3, 4, 5, and 6!
You mentioned 2 Cor. 1:2, keep going to v. 22: set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
You mentioned 1 Cor. 1, by 1 Cor. 3:16, the Holy Spirit has been referenced eight times!
You cited 2 Tim 1...jump down to v. 14:
Guard the good deposit that was entrusted to you—guard it with the help of the Holy Spirit who lives in us. [If the Holy Spirit was some impersonal force, the proper word would be "which" -- not a "WHO"]
You cited 1 Tim. 1...If some neat "formula" was to be followed, then why is only Jesus & the Holy Spirit mentioned in 1 Tim. 3:16? Where's the Father?
You cited 2 Thess 1, and if the "Lord" spoken of in 2 Thess. 2:13 is Jesus, then all three are mentioned in this verse.
*************************************
Bottom line: ALL...The accusations DouglasKC is making versus the Holy Spirit are exactly the types of accusations people can make against the Son of God for not being more clearly elucidated in the Old Testament.
The facts are that just as the Messiah was clearly demonstrated in the Old Testament, the Holy Spirit is clearly demonstrated in the New Testament...and in fact, even more so because whereas ALL of the Old Testament references to the Messiah were of a future incarnation, MOST of the New Testament passages came post-incarnation of the Holy Spirit!
In both cases, this Divine One is a Sent One! (Jesus elaborates on the Holy Spirit as the "Sent One" in John 14:26; 15:26; and Scriptures exist about the Father sending the Messiah)
In both cases, the Son of God and the Holy Spirit come in humble servant form. "Ministry" literally means "service" -- and the Holy Spirit is identified as having a "ministry" (2 Cor. 3:8), much like the Messiah came in servant form (Isaiah 53).
Just as the Son of God came for many reasons, so does the Holy Spirit. One of those reasons the Son of God came was to reveal the Father; likewise, critiquing the Holy Spirit -- as DouglasKC does -- for not shining a spotlight on Himself would be like critiquing Jesus for not shining a spotlight on Himself.
Many times Jesus defers to NOT taking His own initiative, or focusing on His own glory:
Examples:
John 8:28: ...I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.
John 8:54: Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me.
John 5:19, 30: Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does...By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.
{See also Jesus' references on the cross where He says, "if it be you will, let this cup pass from me...not my will, but thy will be done" (Matthew 26:36–46; Mark 14:32–42; Luke 22:39–46)}
The Son of God's focus was to reveal the Unified God:
* Believing Jesus is believing God (see John 12:44; John 14:1)
* Receiving Jesus is receiving God (see Mark 9:33)
* Seeing Jesus is seeing God (see John 12:45; John 14:9)
* Knowing Jesus was knowing God (see John 8:19, 24; John 14:7)
* Honoring Jesus is honoring God (see John 5:23)
* Hating Jesus is hating God (see John 15:23)
* He who denies the Son, will be denied before the Father (see Matthew 10:33)
* He who confesses the Son, is confessed before the Father (see Matthew 10:32)
* To have God is to have the doctrine of Christ (2 John v. 9)
* 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. (Hebrews 1:3)
The Son of God clearly said He was giving direct (enfleshed) testimony of the Father:
John 5:31, 36: If I testify about myself, my testimony is not true...“I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to finish—the very works that I am doing—testify that the Father has sent me.
So, just as the Son of God was an enfleshed Living Testimony of the Father, so, too, the Holy Spirit is an enfleshed (within the body of believers) Living Testimony of the Son (& Father).
John 15:26: “When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me.
(See also 1 John 5:7-8)
The Holy Spirit will indeed at times testify about Himself -- just like at times the Son of God testified about Himself (see John 8:14; 10:25); but that's not His primary focus. His primary focus is to testify about the Son of God!
And anybody blaming the Holy Spirit for not shining a brighter spotlight upon Himself -- and keeping the focus on Jesus (& the Father) is playing the same games people play re: God not spelling out every little detail in the Old Testament re: the Messiah.
There's quite a bit in the Old Testament about the Messiah -- if people had their spiritual eyes opened; likewise, if people realize that there's in reality a "second incarnation" -- only this one involving the Holy Spirit indwelling the Body of Christ around the world, then they quickly lose their "formula" approach to interpreting both Testaments!!!
(I didn't see this post of yours before posting #430...I also cited 1 John 5:7-8 in conjunction with John 15:26 toward the end of that post...)
No need to reduce mathematics to somehow only being about addition...('cause it's not)
Here you seemingly are...attempting to calculate the very "volume" of God, if you will...
Apparently, you and others would formulize God as 1+1+1...
Yet if you tried to get "volume" of an object by mere addition, you would flunk the question.
Volume is measured by multiplying the 3s (height, width, length)...
So you mention the number "one"...well, of course!
1
x 1
x 1
= (drum roll, please!)
1!
Hence, the spiritual FULLNESS of God: 9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form," (Col. 2:9)
ALL: Here's a direct accusation (yet another) by DouglasKC...this time accusing some of the Biblical transmitters/translators (or both) of being "untaught and unstable" Scripture-twisters.
(This is kind of like the Mormon accusation that the Bible is a-OK "insofar as correctly translated"...yet we don't usually hear too much either from Mormons -- or Douglas -- which specific verses match their accusations...)
When people accuse the Scriptures of being twisted, they wind up asserting themselves as the authority of what it's "supposed to say."
Yet they have no direct evidence of what it's "supposed to say"...which usually means for those who make this type of accusation...is that the Bible simply doesn't agree with their theology...and it's easier to accuse the Bible of being wrong...versus themselves.
Well, I never said you didn’t qualify. So please leave me out of it.
GMTA! You just did a more thorough job than I did.
Did you know that Satan also hates when scripture is quoted?
***
Yep that is evident when many of my replies with so many of the verse that were from the Bible, which many were ignored by those here who claimed they love the Bible!:)
Strange isn't!
If it's good enough for King James it's good enough for Jesus!
For those interested you might want to study Comma Johanneum
1 John 5:7 was added to scripture. The fact that it was added to scripture is verified universally by every biblical scholar, protestant or Catholic.
It was added for the precise reason that scripture does NOT have a clear scriptural basis.
About the only ones who seriously believe it wasn't are a small group of people who consider the King James translation of the bible the ONLY inspired scriptures.
Let it be know by all that anyone who casts doubt on the infallibility of scripture as it has been handed down to us today in the original Hebrew and Greek language will by me be considered to be from Satan and not from God.
The only problem with you posting scripture is that all here understand that you believe in a different Jesus and when you say faith in Jesus it isn’t the Jesus of scripture. You can quote from scripture all you want but it means nothing when you inject a different meaning into the words.
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