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The Church Is Israel Now
bereansdesk.blogspot.com ^ | Friday, June 1, 2012 | Charles D. Provan

Posted on 01/20/2014 8:15:27 PM PST by Brian Kopp DPM

Friday, June 1, 2012

The Church Is Israel Now

by Charles D. Provan

During this century, Christians have been told over and over that “God has an unconditional love for Old Testament Israel,” by which is meant that God’s love is directed toward persons racially descended from Abraham, regardless of faith or obedience. Membership in Israel, therefore, is viewed as a matter of race, not faith.

The Church Is Israel Now demonstrates that the Bible totally repudiates this racialist viewpoint. Being a member of Israel in the Old Testament was dependent upon faith and obedience to God. When the Israelites obeyed God, God loved them. But when the Israelites turned from Him, He hated them, stripping them of their Israelite status. After centuries of Israelite rebellion against God, culminating in their rejection of Jesus the Messiah, the titles, attributes and blessings of Israel were transferred to all who accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, and to no one else, regardless of Abrahamic descent. The Church is Israel now.

Jesus said to the chief priests and elders of the Jewish people: "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and be given to a nation producing the fruit of it" (Matt. 21:43).

Jesus said to His disciples: "Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has chosen gladly to give you the kingdom" (Luke 12:32).

OLD TESTAMENT TITLES AND ATTRIBUTES OF ISRAEL WHICH ARE, IN THE NEW TESTAMENT, REFERRED TO THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH

THE BELOVED OF GOD
A) Israel Is Beloved Of God:
     - Ex. 15:13, Deut. 33:3, Ezra 3:11
B) Disobedient Israel Is Not Beloved Of God:
     - Lev. 3:16, Jer. 12:8, Jer. 16:5, Hos. 9:15
C) Christians Are Beloved Of God:
     - Rom. 9:25, Eph. 5:1, Col. 3:12, 1 John 3:1

THE CHILDREN OF GOD
A) Israel Are The Children Of God:
     - Ex. 4:22, Deut. 14:1, Isa. 1:2,4, Isa. 1:2,4, Isa. 63:8, Hos. 11:1
B) Disobedient Israel Are Not The Children Of God:
     - Deut. 32:5, John 8:39, 42, 44
C) Christians Are The Children Of God:
     - John 1:12, John 11:52, Rom. 8:14,16, 2 Cor. 6:18, Gal. 3:26, Gal. 4:5,6,7, Phil. 2:15, 1 John 3:1

THE FIELD OF GOD
A) Israel Is The Field Of God:
     - Jer. 12:10
B) Christians Are The Field Of God:
     - 1 Cor. 3:9

THE FLOCK OF GOD AND OF THE MESSIAH
A) Israel Is The Flock Of God And Of The Messiah:
     - Psa. 78:52, Psa. 80:1, Isa. 40:11, Jer. 23:1,2,3, Jer. 31:10, Eze. 34:12,15,16, Mic. 5:4, Zec. 10:3
B) Christians Are The Flock Of God And Of The Messiah:
     - John 10:14,16, Heb. 13:20, 1 Pet. 2:25, 1 Pet. 5:2,3

THE HOUSE OF GOD
A) Israel Is The House Of God:
     - Num. 12:7
B) Christians Are The House Of God:
     - 1 Tim. 3:15, Heb. 3:2,5,6, Heb. 10:21, 1 Pet. 4:17

THE KINGDOM OF GOD
A) Israel Is The Kingdom Of God:
     - Ex. 19:6, 1 Chr. 17:14, 1 Chr. 28:5
B) Disobedient Israel Is Not The Kingdom Of God:
     - Matt. 8:11,12, Matt. 21:43
C) Christians Are The Kingdom Of God:
     - Rom. 14:17, 1 Cor. 4:20, Col. 1:13, Col. 4:11, Rev. 1:6

THE PEOPLE OF GOD
A) The Israelites Are The People Of God:
     - Ex. 6:7, Deut. 27:9, 2 Sam. 7:23, Jer. 11:4
B) Disobedient Israelites Are Not The People Of God:
     - Hos. 1:9, Jer. 5:10
C) The Christians Are The People Of God:
     - Rom. 9:25, 2 Cor. 6:16, Eph. 4:12, Eph. 5:3, 2 Th. 1:10, Tit. 2:14

THE PRIESTS OF GOD
A) The Israelites Are The Priests Of God:
     - Ex. 19:6
B) Disobedient Israelites Are Not The Priests Of God:
     - 1 Sam. 2:28,30, Lam. 4:13,16, Eze. 44:10,13, Hos. 4:6, Mal. 2:2,4,8,9
C) The Christians Are The Priests Of God:
     - 1 Pet. 2:5,9, Rev. 1:6, Rev. 5:10

THE VINEYARD OF GOD
A) Israel Is The Vineyard Of God:
     - Isa. 5:3,4,5,7, Jer. 12:10
B) Christians Are The Vineyard Of God:
     - Luke 20:16

THE WIFE (OR BRIDE) OF GOD
A) Israel Is The Wife (Or Bride) Of God:
     - Isa. 54:5,6, Jer. 2:2, Eze. 16:32, Hos. 1:2
B) Disobedient Israelites Is Not The Wife (Or Bride) Of God:
     - Jer. 3:8, Hos. 2:2
C) The Christians Are The Wife (Or Bride) Of God:
     - 2 Cor. 11:2, Eph. 5:31,32

THE CHILDREN OF ABRAHAM
A) The Israelites Are The Children Of Abraham:
     - 2 Chr. 20:7, Psa. 105:6, Isa. 41:8
B) Disobedient Israelites Are Not The Children Of Abraham:
     - John 8:39, Rom. 9:6,7, Gal. 4:25,30
C) The Christians Are The Children Of Abraham:
     - Rom. 4:11,16, Gal. 3:7,29, Gal. 4:23,28,31

THE CHOSEN PEOPLE
A) The Israelites Are The Chosen People:
     - Deut. 7:7, Deut. 10:15, Deut. 14:2, Isa. 43:20,21
B) Disobedient Israelites Are Not The Chosen People:
     - Deut. 31:17, 2 Ki. 17:20, 2 Chr. 25:7, Psa. 78:59, Jer. 6:30, Jer. 7:29, Jer. 14:10
C) The Christians Are The Chosen People:
     - Col. 3:12, 1 Pet. 2:9

THE CIRCUMCISED
A) The Israelites Are The Circumcised:
     - Gen. 17:10, Jud. 15:18
B) Disobedient Israelites Are Not The Circumcised:
     - Jer. 9:25,26, Rom. 2:25,28, Phil. 3:2
C) The Christians Are The Circumcised:
     - Rom. 2:29, Phil. 3:3, Col. 2:11

ISRAEL
A) Israel is Israel
B) Disobedient Israelites Are Not Israelites:
     - Num. 15:30,31, Deut. 18:19, Acts 3:23, Rom. 9:6
C) The Christians Are Israel:
     - John 11:50,51,52, 1 Cor. 10:1, Gal. 6:15,16, Eph. 2:12,19

JERUSALEM
A) Jerusalem Is the City And Mother Of Israel:
     - Psa. 149:2, Isa. 12:6, Isa. 49:18,20,22, Isa. 51:18, Lam. 4:2
B) Jerusalem Is The City And Mother Of Christians:
     - Gal. 4:26, Heb. 12:22

THE JEWS
A) Israelites Are Jews
     - Ezr. 5:1, Jer. 34:8,9, Zech. 8:22,23
B) Disobedient Israelites Are Not Jews:
     - Rom. 2:28, Rev. 2:9, Rev. 3:9
C) The Christians Are Jews:
     - Rom. 2:29

THE NEW COVENANT
A) The New Covenant Is With Israel:
     - Jer. 31:31,33
B) The New Covenant Is With The Christians:
     - Luke 22:20, 1 Cor. 11:25, 2 Cor. 3:6, Heb. 8:6,8,10

AN OLIVE TREE
A) Israel Is An Olive Tree:
     - Jer. 11:16, Hos. 14:6
B) The Christians Are An Olive Tree:
     - Rom. 11:24

OLD TESTAMENT VERSES REFERRING TO ISRAEL WHICH ARE QUOTED IN THE NEW TESTAMENT AS REFERRING TO THE CHRISTIANS

QUOTE #1
     - Lev. 26:11,12, Eze. 37:27, 2 Cor. 6:16

QUOTE #2
     - Deut. 30:12-14, Rom. 10:6-8

QUOTE #3
     - Deut. 31:6, Heb. 13:5

QUOTE #4
     - Deut. 32:36, Psa. 135:14, Heb. 10:30

QUOTE #5
     - Psa. 22:22, Heb. 2:12

QUOTE #6
     - Psa. 44:22, Rom. 8:36

QUOTE #7
     - Psa. 95:7-11, Heb. 3:7-11

QUOTE #8
     - Psa. 130:8, Tit. 2:14

QUOTE #9
     - Isa. 28:16, Rom. 10:11, Eph. 2:20, 1 Pet. 2:6

QUOTE #10
     - Isa. 49:8, 2 Cor. 6:2

QUOTE #11
     - Isa. 52:7, Rom. 10:15

QUOTE #12
     - Isa. 54:1, Gal. 4:27

QUOTE #13
     - Jer. 31:31-34, Heb. 8:8-12

QUOTE #14
     - Hos. 1:10; 2:23, Rom. 9:25-26, 1 Pet. 2:10

QUOTE #15
     - Hos. 13:14, 1 Cor. 15:55

QUOTE #16
     - Joel. 2:32, Rom. 10:13



ADDENDUM BY TIMOTHY:
Read Romans 11:17-24 carefully and pay attention to what Paul is saying. Compare what he is saying here to what he writes in Romans 2:25-29 and Romans 9:6-8. Who are the branches that were broken off? Unbelieving Israel. Why were they broken off? Because of their unbelief. Who are the branches that remain? Believing Israel. Why do they remain? Because of their faith. Who are the wild branches? Gentiles. Into what are the wild branches grafted? Believing Israel. Why were they grafted in? Because of their faith. Into what will the natural branches that were broken off be grafted? Believing Israel.

According to Romans 2:25-29, the branches that were broken off are not true Jews: “He is not a Jew who is one outwardly.” Therefore, logically, the remaining branches are true Jews: “He is a Jew who is one inwardly.” In Philippians 3:3, Paul said that we—Christians—are the real circumcision. Why? Because we have been circumcised of the heart, just as Moses commanded them to be (Deut. 10:16). According to Romans 9:6-8, the branches that were broken off do not belong to Israel: “They are not all Israel who are descended from Israel.” Therefore, logically, the remaining branches belong to Israel. In Galatians 6:16, Paul called the church “the Israel of God.

Although Dispensationalists want to deny this, Paul’s words are as clear as day. Paul has just divided national Israel in two—believing Israel and unbelieving Israel, of which he says they are not true Jews nor do they belong to Israel. He states in Romans 11:5 that at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. He states in verse 7 that the elect of Israel obtained what Israel sought but the rest were hardened. He says that if the broken off branches do not continue in their unbelief they will be grafted back in. Into what? Into believing Israel, which will make them true Jews belonging to true Israel.

Galatians 4:28 says, “And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.” All Christians—Jew or Gentile—are children of the promise. Romans 4:13-16 says, “For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, neither is there violation. For this reason it is by faith, that it might be in accordance with grace, in order that the promise may be certain to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all.” All those who believe—Jew or Gentile—are Abraham’s offspring.

John the Baptist said, “Do not suppose that you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham for our father’; for I say to you, that God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham. And the axe is already laid at the root of the trees; every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire” (Matt. 3:9-10). Likewise, John records, “They answered and said to Him, ‘Abraham is our father.’ Jesus said to them, ‘If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham. But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. You are doing the deeds of your father.’ They said to Him, ‘We were not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.’ Jesus said to them, ‘If God were your Father, you would love Me; for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. … You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature; for he is a liar, and the father of lies.’” (John 8:39-42, 44).

These words attest to what Paul was saying in Romans chapters 2 and 9. Just because you are an ethnical Jew does not make you a true Jew, Paul said in chapter 2. Just because you are physically descended from Abraham and Israel does not make you part of true Israel, Paul said in chapter 9.

In Romans 4:13, 9:8, and Galatians 4:28, Paul speaks in regard to the “promise.” What promise? Well, Galatians 3:16, 27-29 say: “Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, ‘And to seeds,’ as referring to many, but rather to one, ‘And to your seed,’ that is, Christ. … For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.” This passage teaches us:
  1. Abrahamic promises were made to Abraham and his seed (v.16).
  2. His seed is Christ (v.16).
  3. And his seed is all who belong to Christ (v.29).
  4. Therefore, the promises belong to Christ and to all who are His (v.29). 
Ergo, this is not "Replacement Theology," it is "Expansion Theology." The Old Testament prophesied of the Gentile inclusion in several passages, predicting God’s work of taking from among the Gentiles a people for Himself. One such passage is Amos 9:11-12. So if the Old Testament prophesied about the Gentile inclusion, and Romans 11:17-24 describes that inclusion, then we must logically conclude that the true Israel is the true church and the true church is the true Israel. For God has only one people that make up one body who were baptized by one Spirit. The church does not replace Israel; the church has always been true Israel, and true Israel has always been the church. “For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek” (Rom. 10:12). There is no longer Jew or Gentile because God has broken down the dividing wall and made of the two one new person (Eph. 2:11-19). There are not two plans of redemption and two ways of receiving salvation. You are either in Christ Jesus or you are not. There is salvation by no other means and in no other name. Anything beyond this is heresy!



TOPICS: Apologetics; Ecumenism; General Discusssion; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: church; churchage; israel; replacementtheo; replacementtheology; repltheology
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To: Brian Kopp DPM

I understand, you don’t want to discuss the issues. Thanks.


41 posted on 01/21/2014 8:21:51 AM PST by redleghunter
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To: redleghunter
I've seen your posting history. You don't want to discuss issues either. Thanks.
42 posted on 01/21/2014 8:52:53 AM PST by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: Brian Kopp DPM

I just find it odd when articles are posted, then not defended only to give more assertions or links to other sites asserting the assertions. It is akin to post, hit and run. That is fine for caucus or ecumenical threads. However even on an ecumenical thread, the poster defends their position other than saying “wanted to point out errors” in other’s position.

I will give the reasoning for my questioning. First to determine if your view is all Biblical prophecy, IYO, is fulfilled excepting the second coming of Jesus Christ. I ask because by your posted article one could come to a prederist conclusion which differs from an Amil or even a post-mil position.

Second, if all prophecy has been fulfilled (minus the second coming) then when was it, and how was it fulfilled? Did it already happen literally, happened/happening literal, or are all the Israel prophecies which are now for the church allegory to observe in every age until the Age to come is established?

I think those are fair questions, especially if one has a developed eschatology based on Scriptures.

Since you have researched well my posting history, you will note I do speak up a lot when a position is asserted without providing explanation.


43 posted on 01/21/2014 9:59:42 AM PST by redleghunter
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To: ClearCase_guy
He does not back out of covenants.

Nope, but people do. The Covenant was fulfilled with Jesus. The modern state is an imposter.

44 posted on 01/21/2014 10:07:41 AM PST by Hacksaw (I haven't taken the 30 silvers.)
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To: Brian Kopp DPM; EinNYC; KC_Lion

Do you think maybe you could come down from your pseudo-intellectial drivel long enough to maybe explain to the folks WHO Israel is? Israel was never supposed to ‘be a church’. Israel is a people. ALL the Tribes of Israel are ancestors of ISRAEL, formerly known as Jacob...The People, HaIvri. Hebrews. Moses was a Hebrew.
Without us, you would not have a clue who/what G-d is. You would still be worshipping zeus.
Our Covenant with HaShem has never, ever been broken. We continue as long as even one of us draws a breath.


45 posted on 01/21/2014 10:11:35 AM PST by MestaMachine (My caps work. You gotta earn them.)
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To: metmom
As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Above...a very "inconvenient" truth for some. Perhaps some of the historical persecutions of Hebrews would have been avoided if our ancestors read the Scriptures literally, plainly, normally.

Eschatology boils down to how one addresses Israel, wrath, judgment and promise. As well as if you approach prophecy literally (when it is clearly literal) or by allegory. The big question always being where does one draw the line of allegory?

Which brings us to examine prophecies already fulfilled to include the Messianic prophecies. All were fulfilled literally. I think no one here would argue that. So why are yet to be fulfilled prophecies not literal? I guess I am begging the question:)

46 posted on 01/21/2014 10:17:24 AM PST by redleghunter
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To: MestaMachine; SkyDancer

If I could post the applause gif Mesta I would.

Well said.


47 posted on 01/21/2014 10:24:38 AM PST by KC_Lion (Build the America you want to live in at your address, and keep looking up.- Sarah Palin)
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To: MestaMachine

And I find it quite odd the Hebrew people “are still around” with all this talk of them as a people ‘forgotten.’ Meaning I see your point, and I logically conclude the Hebrew people are still with us as such for a purpose. We probably differ on the ‘purpose’ yet, where in Torah it says “I will bless those who bless thee and curse those who curse thee” I take that literal for today. The Promise to father Abraham was not conditional both physically and spiritually.


48 posted on 01/21/2014 10:30:21 AM PST by redleghunter
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To: righttackle44
>>Replacement theology is nonsensical and, I think, heretical. I have read your argument. It is nonsense.<<

I agree.

49 posted on 01/21/2014 10:30:25 AM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: Brian Kopp DPM

Darby did have a tremendous influence (partly due to Scourby adopting his views) in developing a systematic paradigm explaining the order of end-times events. It is not the dispensational view or even the slight misconception about National Israel versus the Gentile church which introduces error into this paradigm, but rather it is the failure to distinguish between the Great Tribulation and the Day of the Lord which are clearly distinguished in scripture. (It is incorrect to think that when this dispensation ends, there is a returning to an Old Testament dispensation, but rather the dispensation of the super-abounding grace of God will extend to unbelieving Israel during which God will also fulfill all of His promises to Israel.)

There is one second coming of Christ, and like the first coming it involves a multitude of events. The first coming spanned more than thirty years and included events that took place at specific points in time. The second coming will span some period of time and also include specific, distinguishable events.

For example, the mystery of the rapture which was not revealed in the Old Testament, is that some believers will never die but will be caught up to meet Christ when He returns. This is in contrast to Christ arriving on a white horse with His saints, leading them into battle. Another event distinct from meeting the Lord in the air is when He arrives at the Mount of Olives, planting His feet there, and the mountain splits in two. We also see in one case, the holy angels gathering the elect from the four winds. Yet, in another, we see the holy angels gathering the wicked to remove them.

Most of the dispensational paradigm revolves around understanding the timeline presented in Daniel 9 within the context of chapters 9-12. These passages are referenced by Christ and the apostles when explaining prophetic events that were yet to come. Christ counseled for those who read these passages to read them with understanding. They are not merely academic. They are relevant to us. Paul had already taught the Thessalonians so that in his second letter to them he said they already knew who was restraining the antichrist from his arrival. This is also based on the correct understanding of Daniel.

Daniel 9 explains that two specific events would be separated by 69 prophetic weeks (literally sevens). These events are the command to rebuild Jerusalem and the Messiah being “cut off, but not for Himself”. These were historically separated by 69 weeks of years, each year being 360 days (which is the number of days in the prophetic years in Revelation also). We know that one week of years remains unfulfilled after which National Israel will be saved.

Several passages of scripture give a lot of detail about what series of event and in what order they occur within this 70th week. You cannot understand New Testament prophecy or the dispensational context of the Gospel apart from following Christ’s instruction regarding Daniel, that “whoever reads, let him understand.”


50 posted on 01/21/2014 10:42:35 AM PST by unlearner (You will never come to know that which you do not know until you first know that you do not know it.)
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To: smokingfrog

>> “What is replacement theology?” <<

.
Biblical illiteracy.


51 posted on 01/21/2014 10:51:24 AM PST by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: editor-surveyor

correct answer


52 posted on 01/21/2014 10:53:21 AM PST by smokingfrog ( sleep with one eye open (<o> ---)
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To: Alex Murphy
Matthew 15:

[24] But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
The "house" of Israel is the genetic seed of the ten northern tribes.
53 posted on 01/21/2014 10:57:27 AM PST by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: editor-surveyor
The "house" of Israel is the genetic seed of the ten northern tribes.

Thanks for your input, but I'm not the OP.

54 posted on 01/21/2014 11:01:01 AM PST by Alex Murphy ("the defacto Leader of the FR Calvinist Protestant Brigades")
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To: Hacksaw

The STATE is not Israel. It’s the name of a piece of land that has been defiled beyond recognition.


55 posted on 01/21/2014 11:04:33 AM PST by MestaMachine (My caps work. You gotta earn them.)
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To: MestaMachine

>> “The STATE is not Israel.” <<

Correct.

>> “It’s the name of a piece of land that has been defiled beyond recognition.” <<

.
Actually, it is a people, that are the very purpose of Yehova’s creation.
.


56 posted on 01/21/2014 11:36:27 AM PST by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: Brian Kopp DPM
>> “Jesus said to the chief priests and elders of the Jewish people: “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and be given to a nation producing the fruit of it” (Matt. 21:43).” <<

And that nation is :
Matthew 15:

[24] But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

57 posted on 01/21/2014 11:43:48 AM PST by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: unlearner; daniel1212; metmom; boatbums
It is incorrect to think that when this dispensation ends, there is a returning to an Old Testament dispensation, but rather the dispensation of the super-abounding grace of God will extend to unbelieving Israel during which God will also fulfill all of His promises to Israel.

Which is correct and what you refute is a hyper or ultra dispensational POV which even the likes of Ryrie refutes (he is dispensational).

Many dispensational generalizations I see here and on other sites are of the ultra/hyper variant. Such variants also hold there are two gospels and they don't see the church beginning and the gospel of Grace until a "Mid Acts" or "End of Acts" depending on their POV. However, that is not the dispensationalism of a Scofield, Walvood or Ryrie. They would argue salvation has always been by Grace through faith and no one has ever (even OT) been saved by works or works+faith.

Another misconception is that anyone who is pre-millennial must be dispensational and believes in a pre-tribulation rapture. Just scanning FR we see this view is incorrect. A pre-millennial sees Jesus' physical return to earth will occur prior to the inauguration of the millennium. They believe in a literal physical 1,000 year reign of Jesus Christ on earth after a seven year tribulation period which culminates in the Second Coming of Christ with His saints. Throughout Christian history various church fathers held such views of a literal fulfillment of prophectic scriptures.

Where the water muddies a bit are the assertions all pre-millennials affirm a pre-trib rapture. On the fact a "translation" or "gathering in the clouds" of the church no pre-millennial argues, however the timing of this "rapture" varies. It is one of those areas where disagreement is understood and fellowship is not denied for holding various views. Most Evangelical churches also see this as true for Amillennial, post-millennial and partial prederists views. It is in the case of full prederists where Evangelical churches draw the line, given full prederists believe all prophecies including the second coming of Christ were fulfilled circa 70 AD. Which goes against just about every confession out there.

On the Rapture? So much has been put into that word it detracts every discussion on prophecy. There are good arguments for the "gathering" before, during and after the tribulation. I break bread with all. The timing of the "gathering" "Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord" is certain. The timing of it, is not certain to us earthlings. We can theorize all we want but it WILL happen on God's timeline and understanding not ours. Therefore, we should all take Jesus Christ's commands as emphasized by the apostles and be watchful, ready and be found worthy when Jesus Christ Comes. Those commands, firm advice is what we are to take CERTAIN. We are also CERTAIN Jesus will Come Again as the men of Galilee saw Him ascend in Acts chapter 1.

Hope that helps the discussion. I did not want this thread to be about fallible men such as Darby et. al. because really they matter not, but what the scriptures say. We either take them literal on prophecy or apply allegory. I think that is the real issue.

58 posted on 01/21/2014 11:58:43 AM PST by redleghunter
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To: editor-surveyor

Which is, and has been, my contention for as long as I can remember.


59 posted on 01/21/2014 12:49:21 PM PST by MestaMachine (My caps work. You gotta earn them.)
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To: EinNYC

I do expect all non-Christians to have your perspective.

However, for those who believe the King has come, and that King was Jesus Christ, we believe He is our Savior as the Son of God.

I realize that is heretical to you. I can accept that and it does not make me dislike you.


60 posted on 01/21/2014 12:52:20 PM PST by ConservativeMind ("Humane" = "Don't pen up pets or eat meat, but allow infanticide, abortion, and euthanasia.")
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