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To: Seven_0
>>>Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.<<<

>>>Notice that they were on earth.<<<

And also notice that the "armies" covered the entire earth (the "breadth" of the earth.) That could only be a spiritual event, which I believe to be a war against the Church, worldwide; and I believe it is happening now!

Let's examine the verse from another context: the context of the Church, itself. Discard any notion that the Church has anything to do with any physical building. The Church is spiritual, and the true worshipers do not worship God in any particular place, but in spirit. Recall this discussion:

"Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." (John 4:20-24 KJV)

The "war" is a spiritual war that Satan is waging against us; and everything points to the Church being spiritual. For example, this is New Jerusalem descending from heaven:

"And there came unto me one of the seven angels…, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God" (Rev 21:9-10 KJV)

John was "in the spirit." Therefore, that was a vision that John saw: not an actual physical event. Notice it never says the city descends to the earth, but only that it descends "out of heaven." And where to? We can assume it descends to the "great and high mountain."

But as elaborated in previous threads and posts, that would have to be one enormous mountain, if everything about the holy city is taken literally. The city, which is four-square, would cover about half the United States. Therefore, it is safe to assume the city is spiritual, if for no other reason than John was in the spirit when he saw it.

The heavenly Jerusalem is mentioned in a similar fashion in the old testament:

"And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem." (Isa 2:2-4 KJV)

The nations that "flow unto it" are expressed this way in the Revelation:

"And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it." (Rev 21:24 KJV)

It is important to note that two Jerusalem's are mentioned in the New Testament: the earthly and the heavenly:

"[The] Jerusalem which now is … is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all." (Gal 4:25-26 KJV)

The notion that earthly Jerusalem is in bondage with her children helps explain the designation of earthly Jerusalem as spiritual "Egypt" in Rev 11:8.

With all that context, it is easy to assume the great woman--the "mother" of Christ mentioned in Rev 12:1-2 & 5--is the Church, which is the heavenly Jerusalem located on mount Sion, which is "the mother of us all."

Isaiah expressed it this way:

"Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the Lord: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God. Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her: That ye may suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations; that ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory. For thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees. As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem." (Isa 66:8-13 KJV)

Therefore, the mother who brought forth Christ, and the one who comforts us, is "Jerusalem;" but not the earthly Jerusalem: rather it is the one in whom is also the glory of the Gentiles, which is the heavenly Jerusalem.

The people are taught by God in this manner:

"And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations." (Rev 22:1-2 KJV)

I will explain that in my response to your second comment.


>>>The New Jerusalem does not come down from heaven until after the second death.<<<

That appears to be when John saw it; but only if the Revelation is written chronologically. Recall this passage in the Hebrews:

"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant..." (Heb 12:22-24 KJV)

Now, we know the Church existed early during the Acts of the Apostles because they wrote of it by name. Note also that in the above passage Paul was writing in the present tense: that is,"ye are come" vs "ye will come".) Therefore, the holy city New Jerusalem--the Church--already existed in the days Paul wrote the Hebrews, which was about mid-first century.

But also recall the "river of water of life" referenced in Rev 22:1, above. That "river" began on the day of Pentecost. Jesus and John explained it this way:

"In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)" (John 7:37-39 KJV)

The underlined part indicates Jesus was pointing to the day of Pentecost to be the day he would send the Comforter to those in Jerusalem; and the red portion indicates the Comforter (the Holy Ghost) would be the "rivers of living water." Zechariah prophesied they would flow out of Jerusalem, which they did:

"And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be." (Zec 14:8 KJV)

These are only a few of many verses and passages that point to the Church being spiritual, and existing since the day of Pentecost.

I am not implying that all of Rev 21 and 22 were fulfilled in the days of the apostles. For example, I do not believe the nations can be healed until Satan is defeated. But the Church, itself, has existed since the days of the Apostles' ministry.

Philip

64 posted on 04/06/2014 7:20:00 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
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To: PhilipFreneau
With all that context, it is easy to assume the great woman--the "mother" of Christ mentioned in Rev 12:1-2 & 5--is the Church, which is the heavenly Jerusalem located on mount Sion, which is "the mother of us all."

It is easy to assume? Be careful that your doctrine is not built on too many assumptions; you need to prove all things. When something doesn't fit there is a reason. If you can find the reason, that can make it fit, but more likely it just doesn’t fit.

We're dealing with the work of God and we can expect perfection. Let me illustrate. Romans 5 says that Adam is a figure of Christ and goes on the point out some of the similarities as well as some differences and the allegory begins. God uses the natural man to teach about the spiritual man thus the invisible things of him are clearly seen.

Along the way, more symbols are added to give depth to our understanding but the natural man is always first. (1 Corinthians 15:46) Some confusion comes because the symbols can be use more than one way. For instance Esau is the natural man and Jacob is the spiritual man but when Jacob becomes Israel, he become the natural man and Israel is the second born. When the church comes into the picture, then Israel is the firstborn. Perhaps this is why there are no firstborn sons in Christ's genealogy. But back to Adam.

Adam and Christ are the head of their respective races. Adam was not born physically and Christ is not born spiritually. Christ was created in Adam and Adam was created in Christ. An interesting metaphor God has wrought. You say that the church is spiritual. Does Christ have a spiritual mother? You make the same mistake the Catholic Church makes when it says Mary is the mother of God. You confuse natural things with spiritual things. Christ was not created in the church, it was the other way around. The church was created in Christ just as Eve was created in Adam. The church is the bride not the mother of Christ.
68 posted on 04/13/2014 4:10:17 PM PDT by Seven_0 (You cannot fool all of the people, ever!)
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