Shouldn't Bible-believing church leaders be speaking up on "sainthood"? (vanity)

[Faith Presses On]

We can’t divide God’s Word against itself. It’s not a matter of choosing passages that seem to say one thing while ignoring passages that seem to say the opposite. God wills us to consider them all and how they are to be understood together. The same Paul who talked about not wanting to be disqualified himself after preaching to others also wrote that we are saved by grace through faith, which is not from ourselves but a gift from God, as well as many other passages along the same lines. But he also wrote about the need for holiness and for the church not to live according to the flesh, but to walk according to the Spirit. The other New Testament writers talked about things in the same way, and they all did because that’s what Jesus Himself taught, as is shown in the Gospels. Jesus emphasized faith and works in different ways, making it clear that faith would produce fruit, and works alone didn’t please God.

[Faith Presses On]

This is the point: Christians are obligated to God to teach others faithfully, so they increase in knowledge of the triuth, even if they’re unbelievers. Lies, confusion and deception won’t help them and have to displease God.

So, in this case, due to what the Catholic church publicizes, and what it says and doesn’t say when the spolight is on it, most of those who aren’t Bible-believing Christians have a distorted view of sainthood, believing that only people like Paul, Michael and now John Paul II are saints. (Cont’d)

[Faith Presses On]

What the Catholic Church is doing is like advertising far and wide that only certain great and holy Christians whom they recognize officially are saints, but then in the many pages of fine print they say that all Christians are saints. It would be interesting to include a question on sainthood in a poll of Americans and in other counties on people’s knowledge of Christianity. Why does the Catholic Church use its power and position this way?

And things have been said that the Catholic Church doesn’t claim to “make” saints, but that is obviously not the issue. Of course they will credit God for that. But Catholics themselves speak very sloppily and are double-tongued about it, and haveno interest in correcting the media. A woman on Catholic radio just talked about there being “new saints.” If they were saints that the church just reconized, then they’re not “ new saints.” (Cont’d)

[Faith Presses On]

Then, the Biblical definition that’s in the fine print in the Catholic Church rarely if ever is the meaning that the Church means and uses. They’ll mention it now and then (as I just heard them do on Catholic radio), but by “the saints” they mean those whom they’ve officially recognized. I just heard on Catholic radio them talking to a man who worked for a Pope, and they talked about what it was like not only to work for a Pope, but a saint. So, if all Christians are saints, which is what they’ll also say, why is this their primary understandinflg of the Word, rather than how God Himself has defined the Word?

[PhilipFreneau]

>>>So Justin says the great philosophers, the great humanist thinkers were and are Christian...And after 2000 years of scripture, it is still ignored...<<<

Justin may have been thinking about the following passage when he made the statement found in "First Apoology:"

      "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)" (Rom 2:12-15 KJV)

Recall that Jesus and Paul said you fulfil all the law when you love your neighbour:

      "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." (Mat 7:12 KJV)

      "For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." (Gal 5:14 KJV)

And James said:

      "If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well." (Jam 2:8 KJV)

And John said:

      "Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God." (1 Jn 4:7 KJV)

And we are left with this commandment:

      "This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you." (John 15:12 KJV)

Philip

[Faith Presses On]

“Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.” Galatians 2:16

“What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.” (Romans 3:9-12)

“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.” (Romans 3:20-24)

How also does one define love except through faith in Jesus Christ, who is God’s Word? “Loving” other people can be just about anything if God isn’t the judge of what is and isn’t love. All of the passages are written and understood within the context of the Gospel, which is Jesus being the Savior of the world, the one and only acceptable sacrifice for sins, and “the way, the truth, and the life.” Works of the law only please God when they’re actually the “fruit of the Spirit,” not works done out of the belief that they themselves can justify us to God or please Him without faith.

[Wyrd bið ful aræd]

"What nonsense. The church doesn't give us new life. The Holy Spirit does. Jesus said so here...."

Bishop Faustus is referring to the fact that through Christ's passion we are given new life, and that the establishment of Christ's Church fulfils the covenant.

"Philippians 2:13 ....for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."

That is exactly what I just said.

[Wyrd bið ful aræd]

Obviously Justin Martyr did not literally think they were Christians, existing before Christ came to earth.

He is saying that they sought truth to the extent that is was revealed to them, considering Romans 2:15.

[Wyrd bið ful aræd]

In which case the prooftexting that Protestants are so fond of goes out the window. If scripture is taken as a whole, most Protestant doctrine can't stand up to the light of day.

On the second point, the Catholic Church does not, and never has, taught salvation through works. Salvation is through grace alone, freely given by God. Faith and works permit us to align ourselves more perfectly with the Will of God, thus making us more receptive to His freely offered grace.

[Iscool]

He is saying that they sought truth to the extent that is was revealed to them, considering Romans 2:15.

When Justin showed up, Eph. 2:8,9 had been around for decades...Justin's philosophical wisdom has nothing at all to do with the wisdom of God, or Christianity...

[Iscool]

On the second point, the Catholic Church does not, and never has, taught salvation through works. Salvation is through grace alone, freely given by God. Faith and works permit us to align ourselves more perfectly with the Will of God, thus making us more receptive to His freely offered grace.

So that would be by grace thru faith without works???

[Wyrd bið ful aræd]

James 2: 14-26.

[Wyrd bið ful aræd]

Romans 2:15 had also been around for decades.

[Faith Presses On]

I have been a Bible-Believing Christian for many years for now, and while I have been I’ve looked into thousands and thousands of questions and passages in the Bible for answers on them, and in the process of doing so, I’ve read an untold number of commentaries and sermons by other Bible-believing Christians on these matters. I’ve also heard thousands of sermons, and watched and heard and read thousands of Christian TV and radio programs and books. So I can say the standard practice is to look for answers on a subject by looking at the Bible as a whole. What “Protestant” doctrine (from Bible-believing denominations) do you say isn’t backed up As it should be by Scripture?

On faith and works, the Council of Trent said faith and charity had to be *added* to faith for salvation, rather than arising from them. And I’ve heard Catholics in authority (on different radio programs) argue for faith plus works as well. Awhile back I read a book, too, on the Catholic Church and from the Catholic Church’s own words , it was clear it taught faith plus works.

[PhilipFreneau]

>>>How also does one define love except through faith in Jesus Christ, who is God’s Word? “Loving” other people can be just about anything if God isn’t the judge of what is and isn’t love.<<<

I'm not sure what your point is. Love is love. Jesus explained what it means to "love one's neighbour" in the parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:29-37.)

>>>All of the passages are written and understood within the context of the Gospel, which is Jesus being the Savior of the world, the one and only acceptable sacrifice for sins, and “the way, the truth, and the life.” Works of the law only please God when they’re actually the “fruit of the Spirit,” not works done out of the belief that they themselves can justify us to God or please Him without faith.<<<

I was not referring to the many ordinances of the law of Moses; but the law of the new covenant, which was based on a small part of the law found in Leviticus 19:18. Recall that Jesus did not come to destroy the law, but to fulfil; and He explained that all the law is fulfilled by this:

      "… whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law..." (Mat 7:12 KJV)

In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus explained, in another manner, that all the law is based on His two great commandments, which are like unto each other:

      1) love God
      2) love your neighbour as yourself

Now, when we call upon his name and are saved, He writes his law in our hearts and minds so we no longer need anyone to teach us his law:

      "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more." (Heb 10:16-17 KJV)

      "And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." (Jer 31:34 KJV)

Paul explains in Hebrews 9 that the new covenant is the new testament.

Philip

[metmom]

Bishop Faustus is referring to the fact that through Christ's passion we are given new life, and that the establishment of Christ's Church fulfils the covenant.

When someone is born again, they become the church, part of the body of Christ.

Salvation does not come through it. It comes by salvation.

[metmom]

http://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.html

CANON XX.-If any one saith, that the man who is justified and how perfect soever, is not bound to observe the commandments of God and of the Church, but only to believe; as if indeed the Gospel were a bare and absolute promise of eternal life, without the condition of observing the commandments ; let him be anathema.

CANON XXI.-If any one saith, that Christ Jesus was given of God to men, as a redeemer in whom to trust, and not also as a legislator whom to obey; let him be anathema.

CANON XXIV.-If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema.

CANON XXXII.-If any one saith, that the good works of one that is justified are in such manner the gifts of God, as that they are not also the good merits of him that is justified; or, that the said justified, by the good works which he performs through the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose [Page 49] living member he is, does not truly merit increase of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of that eternal life,-if so be, however, that he depart in grace,-and also an increase of glory; let him be anathema.

CANON XXXIII.-If any one saith,that,by the Catholic doctrine touching Justification, by this holy Synod inset forth in this present decree, the glory of God, or the merits of our Lord Jesus Christ are in any way derogated from, and not rather that the truth of our faith, and the glory in fine of God and of Jesus Christ are rendered (more) illustrious; let him be anathema.

[rwilson99]

There is no way to rectify the term ‘whole house’ with an exclusion of children below a certain age.

You have a large square peg that simply will not fit into the round whole demanded by reality.

[Zuriel]

**Do you get baptized every time you drink some water??? Of course not because water is not and does not mean baptism...**

But, water is a very vital part of it:

“And John also was baptizing” (the baptism unto repentance) “in AEnon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came and were baptized.” John 3:23

In Ephesus, Paul found certain disciples that were baptized ‘unto John’s baptism’ (which required water). Paul preached unto them Jesus Christ, and they were then baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus, and after Paul laid hands on them, they received the Holy Ghost. (Acts 19)

Paul’s own conversion: “And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord”. Acts 22:16

“...the days of Noah...wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The LIKE FIGURE whereunto even baptism doth save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.” Peter 3:20,21

Some say that the ‘water’ in John 3:5 is natural birth, but there is no water mentioned in John 1:13, where natural birth is alluded to:; “... not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man,...”.

[Zuriel]

**If someone gets baptized but by their fruits one sees they haven’t repented,**

I don’t know, but Paul had to remind the saints in Corinth that they were bought with a price, and rebuked them for their not dying daily.