Shouldn't Bible-believing church leaders be speaking up on "sainthood"? (vanity)

[Faith Presses On]

With it so much in the news right now that the Catholic Church is making two former Popes "saints." shouldn't Bible-believing Christians, and those in leadership in particular, be pointing out the Bible truth on who is a saint is? The media won't do this themselves, and the Catholic use of "saint" has caused a lot of ignorance on this most important matter.

[rwilson99]

The things you are attempting to infer in the Acts... clearly contradict Jesus’ command in Matthew 19:!4.

[rwilson99]

Was this your reaction after chewing on John Chapter 6 for a little while... are you interested in RCIA?

[Cvengr]

"But it is very clear that ‘whole houses’ were baptized.

It's very easy to be deceived by the ritual, but not understand the meaning, therefore not actually being baptized when performing the ritual.

Baptism is an act which identifies a person with another.

The ritual doesn't provide salvation, but the action when performed through faith in Christ, becomes a work witnessed by others, identifying the believer with Christ.

Regarding infants and morons, they are saved because Christ has already died for their sins on the Cross, and they are not able to understand the Gospel message for forgiveness, thereby freeing God to exercise grace and not judge them.

[Faith Presses On]

Then I should have been more specific. Much of our country and the world doesn’t know the Bible, and what they believe they know about saints is that John, Michael, Peter, Paul, and now John Paul II, are “saints.” Most outside the church don’t know that all who have been redeemed through Jesus’ sacrifice on the Cross are saints. This is an important part of the Christian faith and the media is misreporting on it, so why, for the sake of those who don’t know the truth, aren’t Christian leaders speaking out on it, such as through contacting the media or encouraging Christians to do so, or to bring up the subject to people?

[af_vet_1981]

Backwards. Genuine faith produces works.

Saving faith produces good works.

Anyone can have an intellectual assent to God, add some works, and deceive themselves into thinking they are saved.

Anyone can deceive themselves into thinking they are saved. It is the good fruit (works) which is the evidence of whether one belongs to Messiah as one's faith is tested. And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

The new birth is more than believing in God and doing some good works to merit heaven. It's a whole change in nature. Different desires, different goals, different priorities, different way of thinking (we are given the mind of Christ).

All true

Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

[Zuriel]

**If they know what a real bill looks like they can detect a fake.**

Acts 2:38.........is it from heaven or of men?

[Faith Presses On]

Logically speaking, that isn’t the case at all. There were no baptisms here of the children, while Jesus (through His disciples) baptized people. And Jesus’ statements on children make the point that they are acceptable to God. He held them up over and over to say, as He did, to adults, that they must be born again and become as little children to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

[Biggirl]

Baptism also refers to water for the forgiveness of sins.

[Biggirl]

There are two ways to baptize even, immerse and pour.

[Wyrd bið ful aræd]

"So now there’s an exception where there wasn’t before. Catholic doctrine changes, except when it doesn’t. right....."

Ignorance is not an attractive attribute (Ephesians 4:18).

From the days of the early Church, exceptions have been made, fully in line with the words of Christ in John 9:41 and John 15:22. Also recall Pauls words in Romans 2:14-16.

Justin Martyr stated in First Apology, circa 150 AD, "We have been taught that Christ is the first-begotten of God, and we have declared him to be the Logos of which all mankind partakes [John 1:9]. Those, therefore, who lived according to reason [Greek, logos] were really Christians, even though they were thought to be atheists, such as, among the Greeks, Socrates, Heraclitus, and others like them. . . . Those who lived before Christ but did not live according to reason [logos] were wicked men, and enemies of Christ, and murderers of those who did live according to reason [logos], whereas those who lived then or who live now according to reason [logos] are Christians. Such as these can be confident and unafraid."

The early Church fathers were, however, quite unequivical in condeming those who removed themselves from the ark of the Church.

[metmom]

The early Church fathers were, however, quite unequivical in condeming those who removed themselves from the ark of the Church.

The *church* is not an ark. It saves no one. There is no other name under heaven by which we must be saved except that of Jesus Christ.

The only safe place is Christ. HE is our refuge, not some organization.

And once we are born again, we are transferred into the kingdom of the Son God loves and are seated with Him in the heavenly places. Our salvation is complete in the spiritual realm.

For that reason, there is therefore no more condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

[Wyrd bið ful aræd]

"The *church* is not an ark. It saves no one. There is no other name under heaven by which we must be saved except that of Jesus Christ. The only safe place is Christ. HE is our refuge, not some organization."

"We believe the Church as the mother of our new birth, and not in the Church as if she were the author of our salvation." — Bishop Faustus of Riez

Christ established His Church as the means by which people may come to Him. Hence, to willfully place onesself outside the Church founded by Christ is to willfully place onesself in opposition to Christ. Obedience to the Church of Christ is the way in which we comply ourselves with His will and are made, by Him alone, receptive to grace -- the same as with works.

"And once we are born again, we are transferred into the kingdom of the Son God loves and are seated with Him in the heavenly places. Our salvation is complete in the spiritual realm. For that reason, there is therefore no more condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."

Matthew 24:13, Matthew 10:22, Luke 21:19, 1 Corinthians 9:27.

[Iscool]

Well, the Ethiopian eunuch needed your dictionary:

..and the eunuch said, “See, here is water; what doth hinder me from being baptized?”

Well he certainly did not...He knew the difference...Thanks for pointing that out...

Did the Eunich say, 'here is water, what prevents me from being watered'???

He certainly did not say, 'there is baptism, what prevents me from being baptized'???

You can drink water, you can wash your clothes in water, you can water (baptize?) your plants in water...

Do you get baptized every time you drink some water??? Of course not because water is not and does not mean baptism...

[Iscool]

Funny thing about faith, the only time somebody lacks that assurance, is when they lack faith in Christ.

That certainly seems to be the truth...Faith in a religion...Faith in someone's mother...

What they don't seem to know is how we know...

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

They reject the idea that Christians can be indwelt with the Holy Spirit (only clergy) so they will never get the 'witness' from the Holy Spirit...

[metmom]

"We believe the Church as the mother of our new birth, and not in the Church as if she were the author of our salvation." — Bishop Faustus of Riez

What nonsense. The church doesn't give us new life. The Holy Spirit does. Jesus said so here....

John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

Christ established His Church as the means by which people may come to Him. Hence, to willfully place onesself outside the Church founded by Christ is to willfully place oneself in opposition to Christ. Obedience to the Church of Christ is the way in which we comply ourselves with His will and are made, by Him alone, receptive to grace -- the same as with works.

It's the Holy Spirit that enlightens one spiritually and draws men to God.

The Catholic church has some chutzpah to keep taking credit for the work of God the Holy Spirit.

Philippians 2:13 ....for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

[Iscool]

There are two ways to baptize even, immerse and pour.

Your religion made that up...In the bible there is only one way to be 'water' baptized and that is immersion...The reason for that is that it is symbolic...It is symbolic of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus...Going into the water represents death, going under the water means burial and of course coming up out of the water represents resurrection...

During the reign of Constantine the Roman army was required to be 'Christian'...Every one of them got sprinkled with no concern for anything like a 'conversion' and they were deemed Christians...

When does Jesus forgive your sins??? When you turn your heart to Him, or a year later after you've gone thru the Rica(?) classes and show up for Easter Sunday and get some water sprinkled on you???

[Biggirl]

Both versions are still good.

Your opinion and your opinion only. As of now, you are being placed on mental ignore. Goodbye.

[Iscool]

Justin Martyr stated in First Apology, circa 150 AD, "We have been taught that Christ is the first-begotten of God, and we have declared him to be the Logos of which all mankind partakes [John 1:9]. Those, therefore, who lived according to reason [Greek, logos] were really Christians, even though they were thought to be atheists, such as, among the Greeks, Socrates, Heraclitus, and others like them. . . .

Jesus and the apostles would have had a field day with this nut-job...

Those who lived before Christ but did not live according to reason [logos] were wicked men, and enemies of Christ, and murderers of those who did live according to reason [logos], whereas those who lived then or who live now according to reason [logos] are Christians. Such as these can be confident and unafraid."

So Justin says the great philosophers, the great humanist thinkers were and are Christian...And after 2000 years of scripture, it is still ignored...

Col_2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

[Iscool]

Your opinion and your opinion only. As of now, you are being placed on mental ignore. Goodbye.

No opinion to it...It's the truth of the scriptures...

Millions of former Catholics over the Centuries have realized that your religion is not the Christianity of the Bible...

I understand why you want to ignore me because that's what your religion has done to the bible since its inception...

[PhilipFreneau]

>>>PF, your doctrine misunderstands the doctrine of faith. All faith in the work of God.<<<

I appreciate your opinion; but for the sake of clarity would you please explain how the context of the scripture I posted in any way contradicts the doctrine of faith? Paul stated that faith came from hearing the Word of God:

        "For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent?" (Rom 10:13-15 KJV)

       "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." (Rom 10:17 KJV)

Recall the time when the tents of David were raised (the fulfillment of Amos 9:11-12) which allowed the Gentiles into the kingdom:

       "Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things." (Acts 15:14-17 KJV)

It says nothing about them being called. To the contrary, they seek after the Lord. And, of course, they seek after the Lord after they gain faith from hearing the Word from preachers like Paul, Peter and others who have been filled with the Holy Ghost.

>>>God the Father calls every person who becomes a believer.<<<

I hear that a lot from other Christians, but I cannot find it in the scripture. Can you show us where that is found in the scripture?

>>>This is not always clearly understood by those who read about Peter being called. Our Lord Christ Jesus tells us that it is upon this rock He will build His body of believers. Note the role of Christ in this action. He obeys the volition of the Father. The Father calls. The human who accepts and places faith in Him through Christ is then saved by Christ. Christ does nothing to glorify Himself, rather He obeys the volition of the Father and builds upon what He has been given.<<<

I think we are talking apples and oranges. Peter was a disciple. He was one of the last of the miracle workers. There is no comparison of his preordained calling to become one of the foundations of our Church and the Holy Temple, to our receiving faith from hearing the Word and our subsequent calling on the name of the Lord.

>>>We can call all day long, but without God’s Provision, we are nothing.<<<

I thought God gave everyone that provision when His son, Jesus Christ, shed his blood on the cross? Recall that on the day of Pentecost, after everyone received the water of life of the Holy Spirit, Peter said:

       "But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel . . . And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Acts 2:15, 21 KJV)

After hearing the Word, and receiving faith from that Word, we are obliged to call on the name of the Lord if we are to be saved. Both Peter and Paul said it, and I have no reason to doubt them. There is also this regarding the water of life:

       "I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely." (Rev 21:6 KJV)

There is the provision. Salvation is free to all, for the asking.

One other point: those who received the miracle of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost, and shortly thereafter, were the ones who received the calling. And, of those who were called, only a few were chosen, as is written.

Philip