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The Papacy in Scripture – More Than Matthew 16
Tim Staples' Blog ^ | March 26, 2014 | Tim Staples

Posted on 05/01/2014 3:25:30 AM PDT by GonzoII

The Papacy in Scripture – More Than Matthew 16

In an earlier blog post, I made the point that the role of St. Peter and his successors is made remarkably clear in Matthew 16:18-19 and its immediate context:

And I tell you, you are Peter (Gr.—petros—‘rock’), and on this rock (Gr.—petra—‘rock’) I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Jesus here promises infallible authority to Peter that would empower him to speak in the place of Christ, or as his vicar on earth. Catholics believe just what the text says. When St. Peter (and his successors) “binds” something on earth, it is “bound” in heaven. That’s definitive authority–infallible authority–with the power of heaven to back it up!

A response I get fairly regularly in response to this is to claim the Church is using “this one text” to try and establish a dogma.

My first thought in response is always to say, ”How many times does God have to tell you something before you will believe and obey it?” After all, Jesus only gave us the proper form for baptism one time in Matthew 28:19, and yet all Christians believe it to be the proper form nonetheless.

Nevertheless, I do think this is a valid question that deserves an answer: Is Matthew 16 the only text that demonstrates the truth of Peter’s primacy and of the papacy in Scripture?

The answer is a resounding no!

The List Goes On and On

Below is a list of biblical texts all related to the primacy of St. Peter and the Papacy. Word count limitations prevent me from quoting all of them; you’ll have to do some homework and look up some of these texts yourself. But when you do, you’ll notice there is not a single “rock” to be found among them.

Mind you, this is not an exhaustive list. There are more biblical texts we could take a look at. Consider this my top 18 list:

1. Matt. 14:23-27: St. Peter is uniquely and miraculously empowered by Jesus to walk on water, and when his faith begins to falter, our Lord does not allow him to go under. This is a prelude to Jesus promising to communicate his authority that can never fail to Peter in Matt. 16. The gift of the papacy is here assured not to depend upon the person of St. Peter or of his successors, but on the promise and power of Christ.

2. Matt. 17:24-27: After receiving the promise of authority in Matt. 16, St. Peter is once again given supernatural power, and this time to provide for both himself and Jesus when the first-century equivalent of the I.R.S. comes calling. Peter acts as Christ’s “vicar,” or, in the place of Jesus, in miraculous fashion, once again, guaranteed by Jesus not to fail. He “pays the tax” for both Jesus and himself. If you don’t think this is miraculous, it’s almost April 15 right now. God ahead down to the closest fishin’ hole, cast a line in, catch a fish, and let’s see if there’s enough money in the fish’s mouth to pay your taxes, let alone yours and someone else’s.

3. Luke 5:1-10: The multitudes that gather to hear Jesus at the shore of Lake Gennesaret press in on him so that he has to step off shore into one of two boats that are there docked. The boat he steps into just happens to be Peter’s boat. Hmmmm. Jesus then proclaims the gospel from the barque of Peter (5:1-3)! Sound familiar? Then, Jesus tells Peter to put out into the deep and let down his nets for a catch. Can you imagine the people present? They must have been thinking that Jesus was nuts! Multitudes have to just stand there and watch St. Peter go fishing? St. Peter then says, “We have toiled all night and caught nothing” (vs. 5), yet he lets down the nets at the command of Jesus. When they catch so many fish they need to bring out the other boat to haul in the load, Peter realizes that Jesus is calling him to more than just catching catfish! These fish are metaphors for Christians. Peter says, “Depart from me, for I am a sinful man” (vs.8)! But Jesus responds, “Do not be afraid; henceforth you will be catching men.”

Thus, St. Peter receives a unique and singular calling from Christ to be the fisher of men. And once again, Peter receives supernatural power that cannot fail to fulfill his unique calling.

4. Luke 22:24-32: In this text, Jesus teaches the apostles the true nature of authority, especially in verses 24-28. True authority in the New Covenant is commanded to be servant of all. He will speak with infallible authority just as Christ did, but he must also wash the feet of his brothers just as Christ did. In this context, Jesus said to the apostles:

[A]s my Father appointed a kingdom for me, so do I appoint for you that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you (Gr.—humas, plural—“you all”), that he might sift you (Gr.—plural again) like wheat, but I have prayed for you (Gr.—sou, singular—Peter alone) that your faith (Gr.—singular again) may not fail; and when you (Gr.—singular) have turned again, strengthen your brethren.

In the context of committing his kingdom authority to the apostles to govern the church (the “Israel of God”—see Gal. 6:16), Jesus especially prays for Peter so that he may be the source of strength and unity for the rest of the apostles. If the apostles want to be protected from the devil’s attempts to divide and destroy them and the Church, they must be in communion with Peter. And notice, Jesus says specifically to Peter, that, literally from the Greek text, “the faith of you [Peter] will not fail.” This is precisely what the Catholic Church has been teaching for 2,000 years!

5. John 10:16: Jesus prophesied:

And I have other sheep that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, and one shepherd (emphasis added).

Who is this prophetic shepherd? The answer seems simple. And on one level it is. Jesus declared himself to be “the good shepherd” (Gr.—poimein—“shepherd” or “pastor”) in John 10:14. Yet, if we dig deeper into the text we discover another meaning as well. In the context of prophesying about this “one flock” and “one shepherd,” Jesus says he must gather “other sheep” referring to the gentiles. Who does our Lord use as the shepherd to bring this prophecy to pass? The answer is found in our next two texts.

6. John 21:1-17: Here, we find another example of Jesus aiding the fishing of the apostles who “caught nothing” all night long (vs. 3). At the command of Jesus they let down their nets and catch an astonishing 153 “large fish” (vs. 11). When Jesus commands the net to be hauled ashore, St. Peter heaves the entire net of fish to shore by himself. No man can lift that size of a catch out of the water and on to the shore by himself. If you take these words literally to mean Peter actually did this, it seems Peter was given supernatural strength to do what no man could naturally accomplish. Fish are symbols representing the faithful (recall Luke 5:8-10). And the symbol of “the net” is used elsewhere in the New Testament for the Church (see Matt. 13:47). Not only is Peter’s ability to carry these “fish” (all the faithful) a miracle, but the fact that the “net” is not broken is also extraordinary. The message seems to be that the Church Jesus establishes containing all of God’s faithful with Peter packing the power will never be destroyed!

It is in this context that Jesus then asks St. Peter three times, “Do you love me… Do you love me… Do you love me?” When Peter responds in the affirmative the second time, Jesus responds by commanding Peter to “tend (Gr.–poimaine—’shepherd’) my sheep” (vs. 16). Jesus the shepherd here commissions Peter to be the prophetic shepherd of John 10:16 to shepherd the entire people of God!

How do we know Peter was called to shepherd the entire flock? I would only ask this: How many of the sheep belong to Jesus? Answer? All of them. So how many of his sheep did Jesus entrust to St. Peter to shepherd? Answer? All of them.

7. Matt. 10:2: In the context of the calling and listing of the twelve apostles, Peter is referred to as “the first” apostle. We know he was not the “first apostle” chronologically. John 1:37-41 tells us Andrew believed Jesus was the Messiah first and told his brother Peter about him. Andrew would be the “first” chronologically. Peter was “first” in primacy.

Though the Greek word, protos (first), can certainly mean “first” chronologically, it can also denote “chief,” “superior” or “the first in rank.” In Acts 28:7, for example, protos is used to describe “the chief man of the Island, Publius.” In Matthew 20:27, we discover, “Whoever would be first among you must be your slave.” Luke 15:22 adds: “Bring forth the best robe…” And I Tim. 1:15 provides: “And I am the foremost of sinners.” All of these texts use protos in the sense of “chief” or “superior.”

Moreover, Christ is referred to as prototokos, or “first-begotten” in Col. 1:15. Here St. Paul uses protos in order to teach us about Christ’s eternal generation, which has been accomplished outside of time. He is; therefore, the creator and the one who has “preeminence” over all things, according to the text. Colossians 1:15-18 reads:

[Christ] is the image of the invisible God, the first-born (Gr.—prototokos) of all creation; for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth…He is before all things…He is the head of the body, the church…that in everything he might be pre-eminent (Gr.—proteuon, a verb with the same root as protos and prototokos).

Thus, in a notably direct and overt manner, by referring to St. Peter as the “first” apostle, St. Matthew presents Peter (and his successors) just as we see him represented in the rest of the New Testament; he is revealed to be “chief” of the apostles, or to have a primacy of authority over all the apostles and, by extension, over the entire church.

8. Acts 1:15-26: 

During those days Peter stood up in the midst of the brothers (there was a group of about one hundred and twenty persons in the one place).  He said, “My brothers, the scripture had to be fulfilled which the holy Spirit spoke beforehand through the mouth of David, concerning Judas, who was the guide for those who arrested Jesus … For it is written in the Book of Psalms:  “Let his encampment become desolate, and may no one dwell in it” (citing Psalm 69:25).  And: “May another take his office” (citing Psalm 109:8). Therefore it is necessary that one of the men who accompanied us the whole time the Lord Jesus came and went among us … become with us a witness to his resurrection.  So they proposed two, Joseph called Barsabbas, who was also known as Justus, and Matthias.  Then they prayed, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two you have chosen …”  Then they gave lots … and the lots fell upon Matthias, and he was counted with the eleven apostles.

It is St. Peter who is clearly in charge in choosing and ordaining a new apostle to replace Judas. He stands in the midst of the apostles and gives an authoritative interpretation of Psalm 69:25 and Psalm 109:8. And mind you, these are not exactly obvious interpretations of these texts. Psalm 69:25 uses the plural, yet Peter applies it singularly to Peter. The context of Psalm 109:8 also uses the plural (see verse 20). This is not exactly self-evident. Yet, St. Peter then declares the apostles must choose a successor of Judas based upon these two texts. And there is nary a question from the rest of the apostles like, “Hey, Peter, that’s a pretty shaky interpretation of those two texts. What hermeneutical principles are you using, anyway?”

In the case of St. Peter, the old saying is true, “It is my (Peter’s) way or the highway.”

9. Acts 2:14-41:

It is St. Peter who is in charge at Pentecost and preaches the first sermon whereby 3,000 are baptized. And you’ll notice a theme we are going to often see in the Book of Acts (and in the Gospels as well). Peter is listed as a category all by himself. Acts 2 says, “But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them.” There’s Peter alone, and then there is “the eleven.”

10. Acts 3:1-10:

Peter and John are “about to go into the temple,” when a man who was “lame from birth” called out to them begging alms. We note that it is Peter who speaks and it is Peter who performs the first miracle in the Acts of the Apostles. Another “first” for St. Peter. We will see more.

11. Acts 4:3-12:

When St. Peter and St. John are arrested and called before the Sanhedrin, it is St. Peter in verse 8, who speaks for both and preaches boldly of Christ and the name of Jesus.

12. Acts 5:1-15: It is St. Peter who clearly depicted as in charge of the Church in collecting funds for world evangelism. And it is St. Peter who pronounces God’s judgment on Ananias and Sapphira, speaking for God in the process. And it is then, in verse 15, that after seeing “more than ever” numbers of converts flood into the Church, that the sick were brought to him in hope that even his shadow might pass over them so that they may be healed.

13. Acts 5:29: After the apostles were arrested and then miraculously set free by the angel of the Lord, they are before the Sanhedrin for the second time. St. Luke records:

Peter and the apostles said in reply, “We must obey God rather then men.”

Once again, St. Peter is set apart from the rest of the apostles. If he was just one of the apostles with no special position St. Luke would not set him apart like he does. Why does he do this? Because St. Peter has the keys of the kingdom (cf. Matthew 16:15-19). He is the Shepherd over the whole flock of God’s people (cf. John 10:11-16, 21:15-17).

In fact, every time St. Peter is mentioned in sacred Scripture with the other apostles, he is either listed first (see Matthew 10:2, Mark 3:16-19, Luke 6:13-16 and Acts 1:13, etc.), or given a special place apart from the other apostles (see I Cor. 9:5, Mark 1:36, Mark 16:7 and Luke 9:32) except for one example in Galatians 2:9. This one example is often used by non-Catholics to demonstrate absolute equality among the apostles or even to prove St. James to have been the true leader of the early Church rather than St. Peter.

And when they perceived the grace that was given to me (St. Paul), James and Cephas and John, who were reputed to be pillars, gave to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the gentiles and they to the circumcised.

A closer look at the context clears up this apparent difficulty. In Galatians 2, St. Paul is speaking in the context of the church at Jerusalem. We know from Eusebius (Ecclesiastical History …) that James was the first bishop of Jerusalem after the apostles dispersed throughout the world.  It would not be surprising to list James first in the context of the diocese (or city, as it were then) over which he presides. Even today, if there were a Council held in a diocese other than Rome, the local bishop would normally be given a special place of honor in some distinct manner. This, in fact, has been the case many times in the history of the Church. James should be given a place of honor because he is the head of local Church there in Jerusalem.

This is the context of Galatians 2. However, notice the difference between this second visit St. Paul made to Jerusalem and his first visit fourteen years earlier (cf. Galatians 2:1).

Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas, and remained with him fifteen days. But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord’s brother (Gal. 1:18-19)… Then, after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas… and when they perceived the grace of God was given to me, James and Cephas and John, who were reputed to be pillars, gave to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship (Gal. 1:18-2:9).

St. Paul originally went to Jerusalem not to see James, though he did see James. He went to confer with St. Peter. After receiving revelation from God, St. Peter is the first man St. Paul wants to see. This was not just a casual meeting. It lasted fifteen days. It was fourteen years later (cf. Gal. 2:1), after St. Peter had gone and established his see in Antioch (cf. Gal. 2:11, Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History), that St. Paul lists James first in the context of the Church of Jerusalem.

An interesting not: There are four lists of apostles given in Scripture. Matthew 10:2-4 (which we saw before), Mark 3:16-19, Luke 6:13-16 and Acts 1:13. In every case St. Peter is first and Judas is last (except in Acts, Judas is not listed at all because he had committed suicide). In oriental culture, the listing of names is important. It connotes position and honor. Notice in all the lists the order is generally identical. There is a bit of juxtaposition in St. Mark’s list, but St. Peter’s place is always the same. This is reminiscient of the early Church. There was some juxtaposition in the early Church when it came to the second and third place of honor in the Church, but never a doubt who was at the helm:  The Bishop of Rome.

14. Acts 8:14-23:

In this text we see St. Peter leading when he and St. John confirm the new converts in Samaria because of the evangelistic efforts of St. Phillip. And once again it is St. Peter who takes the helm in pronouncing judgment on Simon the sorcerer who wanted to buy the power to confirm or convey the Holy Spirit (verses 18-23).

15. Acts 9:32:

Here we have an interesting little passage in verse 32 most pass over too quickly.

As Peter was passing through every region, he went down to the holy ones living in Lydda (NAB).

Here we have St. Peter making his pastoral rounds. To what part of the Church?  All of it!  Why?  St. Peter is the shepherd of the whole world.  He then proceeds to do another first.  He raises Tabitha from the dead in Joppa (cf. 9:40-43).

16. Acts 10:1-48:

In this chapter from the Acts of the Apostles, Jesus personally sees to the fulfillment of the prophecy of John 10:16, which we saw above. He appears to St. Peter and commands him to bring the gospel to the gentiles by way of Cornelius, the centurion. When Peter then “commanded [Cornelius and his household] to be baptized” in Acts 10:48, the prophecy of John 10:16 was fulfilled. There was now one fold and one shepherd for Jews and Gentiles. That ministry has continued to this day in the successors of St. Peter, the bishops of Rome.

It would be easy to pass over this text and miss its importance. It is most significant that it is St. Peter to whom God gives a vision to allow the gentiles to be baptized and enjoy full membership in the Church. This was a radical move! If you think we have a problem with racism in the 21st century, we have nothing on first century opinion of the gentiles!

If we read further, into Acts 11:18, after the other apostles and other disciples heard Peter declare what God had done, they say, in chapter 11:18:

When they heard this they were silenced. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the gentiles also God has granted repentance unto life.”

They heard St. Peter speak and the question was settled. The question would continue to plague the Church with reference to how the gentiles and Jews were to harmonize in the Church. But the question of Gentiles being in the Church was settled by St. Peter and the question would not be raised again. Peter had spoken, the rest of the Church “held their peace.”  Would to God we today would do the same!

17. Acts 12: 3-11:

In this text, St. Peter is arrested again. Notice that the entire Church then goes to ‘round the clock prayer for him until he is released miraculously. This is not recorded to have been the case when St. James or any others were arrested. When the head of a fledgling Church struggling for its existence is put in jail, you better believe everyone is praying!

18. Acts 15: 1-12:

The ministry of St. Peter as “the shepherd” of the Universal Church continues. When there was a heresy spreading in the church at Antioch (and elsewhere) so widespread and problematic that Paul and Barnabas could not quell the resulting confusion, the church there decided to “go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and elders about this question” (vss. 1-2). The question concerned salvation and the Old Covenant law in relation to the gospel. Some among “believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up, and said, ‘It is necessary to circumcise…and…to keep the law of Moses’ (vs. 5) or else you ‘cannot be saved’” (vs. 1). In particular, they spoke of the gentiles who were converting to Christ, but the same would apply to all. The real question was: Are Christians saved by the grace of Christ in the New Covenant or must they obey the Old Covenant as well for salvation? The first Church Council (of Jerusalem) was convened and the theological question was put to rest by the pronouncement of St. Peter.

The apostles and elders were gathered together to consider this matter. And after there had been much debate, Peter rose and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made choice…that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe…we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.” And all the assembly kept silence… (Vs. 6-12, emphasis added)

Like we saw in Acts 11:18, when the Pope finally speaks on a matter, the rest are silent. And so it should be.

If you like this and you would like to learn more, click here.



TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: acts; actsoftheapostles; bible; gogdsword; papacy; pope; scripture; scriptures; stpeter; timstaples
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To: motoman; xone

LOL. Our “faith life” is no more “centered” on protesting Catholicism than Jesus was “centered” on refuting the misguided magisterium of Israel. It’s not fun work, but it has to be done. And it’s NOT the center. The center is Jesus, the resurrected Son of God, and very God, whom we adore with all our being, and live to love and serve and worship, according to the manner of worship God Himself has prescribed in Scripture, in spirit and in truth, not the failed traditions of men.

Besides, just as it was with Jesus, this ongoing debate presents countless wonderful opportunities to share the Gospel of God’s amazing grace, bestowed on us freely in His beloved Son Jesus, who died for our sins in order to once for all settle our debt of sin, and raise us from spiritual death to spiritual life, not by rituals or membership in this or that human institution, or by any filthy rags which we might mistake for good works, but by making us a new creation, and engrafting us into His own infinitely rich life through His Spirit, us who do not deserve one iota of His goodness, and yet He does it for His love for us.


321 posted on 05/07/2014 12:21:49 AM PDT by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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To: editor-surveyor
I did interpret it first, but you didn’t like it.

NO one 'likes' it when no references are given.

You still didn't...

322 posted on 05/07/2014 1:58:02 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: af_vet_1981
I uphold the entirety of the Scriptures.

And then some...

323 posted on 05/07/2014 1:58:37 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: motoman
I would differ. Protestant Christians are no more rebellious toward God than Catholics. Rebellion and defiance toward God is a willful act rooted in pride, hate, and willful ignorance. Shallow minded, hateful, and spiteful attacks on the Catholic faith while refusing to investigate the truth and facts of the Catholic teaching (e.g. Catechism of the Catholic Church) is a form of sinful rebellion.

I've noted your equating the RCC to GOD here.

324 posted on 05/07/2014 2:00:47 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: motoman

HATE!

seems to be on your mind a lot.

This might work in the POLITICAL realm of FR; but it's gaining NO traction here.

I think you'd do better by addressing the CONCERNS of Protestantism, than claiming everything it does as BASED on hate.

325 posted on 05/07/2014 2:02:59 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: af_vet_1981
Lots of underlined link; is it supposed to be DOCTRINE?


What doctrine of 'Luther's' isn't in consonance with Scripture?

326 posted on 05/07/2014 2:04:42 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Petrosius
So say you. I, with millions of other Catholic for the past 2000 years, have found the teachings of the Catholic Church in complete agreement with the Scriptures.

As well as bunch of stuff that AIN't!


 

 

http://calvinandhobbes.wikia.com/wiki/Calvinosaurus

 

 

 

327 posted on 05/07/2014 2:34:44 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Petrosius
So say you. I, with millions of other Catholic for the past 2000 years, have found the teachings of the Catholic Church in complete agreement with the Scriptures.

.
.
.
Frankly, I find Protestant teachings to be at complete variance to what the Bible actually says.

So much completeness in your world:

Your chosen religion RIGHT; while mine is completely WRONG.

328 posted on 05/07/2014 2:36:51 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: motoman
Bull Cantate Domino, 1441 is authentic. It should interpreted in its historical context and not the modern day Catholic-Protostant debate.

That was then; this is now.

What a wonderful way to brush history and TEACHINGS away...

329 posted on 05/07/2014 2:38:19 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: motoman
Simply belonging to another faith does not sever oneself from salvation. The same holds true for Catholics who obsess with unfairly labelling and deriding Protestants.

NOW you're in trouble with FR Catholics!


;^)

330 posted on 05/07/2014 2:39:26 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Springfield Reformer
... not by rituals or membership in this or that human institution...

And now YOU are in trouble with FR Catholics!


;^)

331 posted on 05/07/2014 2:41:14 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: xone
So we'll find that in doctrines of the Confessional Lutheran church then?

How does the Confessional Lutheran church differ from the Lutheran church ? I assume it follows the Protestant model. The church was founded by a man of the times (Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, etc.) and not by our LORD Jesus Christ. It caught on for a while until its adherents either tired of the man and/or his doctrine. They refined, reformed, split, or latched onto another man. A new religion/sect/denominational name was selected to differentiate them from whatever group they were now protesting against, and so it goes to this day.

Since the Lutheran Church was founded by Martin Luther, it cannot disown him. His life is defined by everything he wrote down for posterity. It reflects the spirit within him.

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

332 posted on 05/07/2014 4:05:07 AM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began)
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To: xone
OTOH your leaders in the Catholic church have promulgated these:
  1. The Holy See has to date published, through its Commission for Religious Relations with the Jews, two significant documents intended for the application of the Second Vatican Council's Declaration Nostra Aetate, n. 4: the 1974 Guidelines and Suggestions; and the 1985 Notes on the Correct Way to Present the Jews and Judaism in Preaching and Catechesis in the Catholic Church. Today it publishes another document, which the Holy See's Commission for Religious Relations with the Jews has prepared at the express request of His Holiness Pope John Paul II. This document, which contains a reflection on the Shoah, is another step on the path marked out by the Second Vatican Council in our relations with the Jewish people. In the words which His Holiness wrote in his letter to me as President of the Commission, it is our fervent hope "that the document [...] will help to heal the wounds of past misunderstandings and injustices".1 It is addressed to the Catholic faithful throughout the world, not only in Europe where the Shoah took place, hoping that all Christians will join their Catholic brothers and sisters in meditating on the catastrophe which befell the Jewish people, on its causes, and on the moral imperative to ensure that never again such a tragedy will happen. At the same time it asks our Jewish friends to hear us with an open heart.
  2. The message of the council's statement is clear. Recalling in moving terms the "spiritual bond that ties the people of the New Covenant to Abraham's stock," the Fathers of the council remind us of the special place Jews hold in the Christian perspective, for "now as before God holds them as most dear for the sake of the patriarchs; he has not withdrawn his gifts or calling." Jews, therefore, the Fathers caution, are not "to be presented as rejected or accursed by God, as if this followed from Holy Scripture." The Passion of Jesus, moreover, "cannot be attributed without distinction to all Jews then alive, nor can it be attributed to the Jews of today." The Church, the statement declares, "decries hatred, persecutions, displays of anti-Semitism directed against the Jews at any time and by anyone."

333 posted on 05/07/2014 4:33:01 AM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began)
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To: RaceBannon
The only foundation for the Church was Jesus Christ Himself.

No, the Scripture says otherwise. The foundation of the Church is the Apostles and Prophets with the Messiah as the chief corner stone.

Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:

334 posted on 05/07/2014 4:48:24 AM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began)
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To: af_vet_1981
Since the Lutheran Church was founded by Martin Luther, it cannot disown him.

And it wouldn't want to. Luther was a sinner, he held a view of the Jews that in his time wasn't uncommon, but was still wrong and un-Christian. The Lutheran church was founded on the scriptural truth of the Bible, not Luther. And while his views on Jews was unChristian he had no power to enforce his diatribe.

The Popes on the other hand did have the secular power and used it to persecute Jewry. Some action taken in 1974 while laudable finally, didn't restore to those from whom much was taken. After all Catholics claim to be the TRUE CHURCH, founded by Christ. Tall order to be always like Christ as an individual much more so for an organization, no excuses can be given much less accepted for institutional works that are less than Christlike. Especially with special gifts like infallibility. After all, since Catholicism wrote and defined what would be in the Bible as God's Word, there is no excuse for not following it to the letter. It's your own work, but as opposed to the contention that Catholicism has always been the same and unified it is obvious from history that it cannot and has not make up its mind over any number of issues.

335 posted on 05/07/2014 5:52:40 AM PDT by xone
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To: Elsie
And now YOU are in trouble with FR Catholics!

What? I wasn't in trouble already? Who knew?

:)

336 posted on 05/07/2014 5:54:50 AM PDT by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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To: boatbums
You've made this claim several times now and I'd like to hear what all these Protestant "teachings" are that you consider bizarre and at variance with what is actually in the Bible, nothing but a twisting and disregarding of Biblical teachings, at complete variance to what the Bible actually says and which are "unconvincing and clearly unbiblical". Go ahead, name them and we can see if you are correct in your view.

First I must apologize for the uncharitable and intemperate manner in which I made my remarks. I usually try to avoid that. I just tire of what I see as a stark hypocrisy of some Protestant apologists. While claiming the right of private interpretation of the Bible for themselves they will not grant Catholics the right to interpret the Bible contrary to themselves. Not being content to say that in their opinion that Catholics err in their interpretation of Scripture they insist that it is unbiblical and even pagan.

That being said, I do find Protestant teachings to be contrary to the Bible. By this I mean those teachings that depart from the Catholic faith. As to specifics (Here I am simply pointing out that there are disputes between us that are based on differences in the interpretation of Scripture. I am not calling for a debate on each point.):

1) This very topic is one. To me and other Catholics it seems clear what our Lord meant when he said "You are Peter (Kephas), and upon this rock (kephas) I will build by church …" To try to deny the clear meaning of these words by harping on the distinction between "Petros" and "petra", which is nothing more than something required by the translation of "Kephas" into Greek because of grammatical gender, is nothing but sophistry.

2) The denial of the clear meaning of our Lord's words "This is my Body …" I just shake my head when I see the mental contortions that Protestants go through to deny the clear words of the Bible.

3) The denial of the sacrament of Penance that was established when Jesus told the Apostles "Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them…" These words are clear but Protestants just want to ignore them.

4) The denial of Holy Orders. Acts makes is clear that the authority of the Apostles came from an office that they held and was not just personal. That this office survive the death of the first apostles is shown by the selection of Matthias to replace Judas. Paul also shows the existence of the three orders of episcopoi, presbuteroi and diaconoi which are imparted by the laying on of hands.

5) The Protestant doctrine of "Faith alone". I really do not understand how Protestants can hold this given what is in the Bible:

Produce good fruit as evidence of your repentance. Even now the ax lies at the root of the trees. Therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. (Matt. 3:8,10)

Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. (Matt. 7:21)

When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’ Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’ Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life. (Matt. 25:31-46)

I am the true vine, and my Father is the vine grower. He takes away every branch in me that does not bear fruit, and everyone that does he prunes so that it bears more fruit. (Jn. 15:1,2)

For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified. (Rom. 2:13)

Now the works of the flesh are obvious: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, rivalry, jealousy, outbursts of fury, acts of selfishness, dissensions, factions, occasions of envy, drinking bouts, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. (Gal. 5:19-21)

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble. Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.” See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route? For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead. (James 2:14-26)

For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, virtue with knowledge, knowledge with self-control, self-control with endurance, endurance with devotion, devotion with mutual affection, mutual affection with love. If these are yours and increase in abundance, they will keep you from being idle or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. Anyone who lacks them is blind and shortsighted, forgetful of the cleansing of his past sins. Therefore, brothers, be all the more eager to make your call and election firm, for, in doing so, you will never stumble. For, in this way, entry into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ will be richly provided for you. (2 Peter 1:5-11)

Again, I am not inviting a debate on these points; the Protestant response is well known. I am just pointing out despite the constant charge made by Protestants that Catholic teachings go against the Bible, for Catholics it is the Protestants that are unbiblical. Nevertheless I will not say that Protestants are pagan, just that they are in error.
337 posted on 05/07/2014 6:27:25 AM PDT by Petrosius
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To: af_vet_1981

Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;


338 posted on 05/07/2014 7:12:43 AM PDT by RaceBannon (Lk 16:31 And he said unto him If they hear not Moses and the prophets neither will theybe persuaded)
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To: Elsie

Yes, it certainly was THEN, and in context of a very different world that existed centuries ago. You can’t apply your modern day PRETEXTS to these teachings while ignoring the historical contexts from which they arose from. Do you read all scripture with a literal modern day interpretation without the help of a divine teacher? If so you are leading yourself in error and ignoring the very gospel that tells us to defer to those “sent to teach” for proper guidance.


339 posted on 05/07/2014 8:41:30 AM PDT by motoman (")
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To: Elsie

Yes - probably so with any of the truly militant ones. But that’s ok - often, the journey starts at the head and ends with the heart.


340 posted on 05/07/2014 1:04:57 PM PDT by motoman (")
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