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"Orans" Posture and Hand-Holding During the Our Father -- Two Liturgical Abuses at Once
Biblical Evidence for Catholicism ^ | July 07, 2008 | Dave Armstrong

Posted on 05/15/2014 8:58:50 PM PDT by Salvation

Monday, July 07, 2008

"Orans" Posture and Hand-Holding During the Our Father Are Against the Rubrics (Instructions) For the Mass

 



Two liturgical abuses at once: "orans" posture and hand-holding during the Our Father

[ source ]

 


Colin B. Donovan, STL, over at the EWTN website, states that the "orans' posture in the congregation (arms outstretched in a "praying" or adoration position) is contrary to the rubrics:

The liturgical use of this position by the priest is spelled out in the rubrics (the laws governing how the Mass is said). It indicates his praying on BEHALF of us, acting as alter Christus as pastor of the flock, head of the body. . . .
It is never done by the Deacon, who does not represent the People before God but assists him who does.
Among the laity this practice began with the charismatic renewal. Used in private prayer it has worked its way into the Liturgy. It is a legitimate gesture to use when praying, as history shows, however, it is a private gesture when used in the Mass and in some cases conflicts with the system of signs which the rubrics are intended to protect. The Mass is not a private or merely human ceremony. The symbology of the actions, including such gestures, is definite and precise, and reflects the sacramental character of the Church's prayer. . . .
Our Father. The intention for lay people using the Orans position at this time is, I suppose, that we pray Our Father, and the unity of people and priest together is expressed by this common gesture of prayer. Although this gesture is not called for in the rubrics, it does at least seem, on the surface, to not be in conflict with the sacramental sign system at the point when we pray Our Father. I say on the surface, however, since while lay people are doing this the deacon, whose postures are governed by the rubrics, may not do it. So, we have the awkward disunity created by the priest making an appropriate liturgical gesture in accordance with the rubrics, the deacon not making the same gesture in accordance with the rubrics, some laity making the same gesture as the priest not in accordance with the rubrics, and other laity not making the gesture (for various reasons, including knowing it is not part of their liturgical role). In the end, the desire of the Church for liturgical unity is defeated.
After Our Father. This liturgical disunity continues after the Our Father when some, though not all, who assumed the Orans position during the Our Father continue it through the balance of the prayers, until after "For thine is the kingdom etc." The rubrics provide that priest-concelebrants lower their extended hands, so that the main celebrant alone continues praying with hands extended, since he represents all, including his brother priests. So, we have the very anomalous situation that no matter how many clergy are present only one of them is praying with hands extended, accompanied by numbers of the laity.
So, while we shouldn't attribute bad will to those who honestly have felt that there was some virtue in doing this during the Mass, it is yet another case where good will can achieve the opposite of what it intends when not imbued with the truth, in this case the truth about the sacramental nature of the postures at Mass and their meaning.

Catholic apologist Jimmy Akin, in an article about postures during the Our Father, agrees, and provides more documentation:

The Holy See has been concerned about the laity unduly aping the priest at Mass, and in the 1997 Instruction on Collaboration, an unprecedented conjunction of Vatican dicasteries wrote:

6 § 2. To promote the proper identity (of various roles) in this area, those abuses which are contrary to the provisions of canon 907 [i.e., "In the celebration of the Eucharist, deacons and lay persons are not permitted to say the prayers, especially the eucharistic prayer, nor to perform the actions which are proper to the celebrating priest."] are to be eradicated. In eucharistic celebrations deacons and non-ordained members of the faithful may not pronounce prayers — e.g. especially the eucharistic prayer, with its concluding doxology — or any other parts of the liturgy reserved to the celebrant priest. Neither may deacons or non-ordained members of the faithful use gestures or actions which are proper to the same priest celebrant. It is a grave abuse for any member of the non-ordained faithful to "quasi preside" at the Mass while leaving only that minimal participation to the priest which is necessary to secure validity.

This instruction, incidentally, was approved by John Paul II in forma specifica, meaning that the pope invested it with his own authority and is binding on us with the pope's authority and not merely the authority of the authoring congregations.
Now, what gestures are proper to the priest celebrant? The orans gesture when praying on behalf of the people is certainly one of them.

An article in Adoremus Bulletin offers yet more proof that this is an abuse:
Many AB readers have been asking about the orans posture during the Our Father (orans means praying; here it refers to the gesture of praying with uplifted hands, as the priest does during various parts of the Mass).
In some dioceses in the United States, people are being told that they should adopt this gesture, though it is not a customary posture for prayer for Catholic laity. Sometimes people are told that their bishop mandates this change because the new General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM) requires it or at least encourages it.
Thus it may be helpful to review the actual regulations on the orans posture.
Wht does the GIRM say?
First of all, nowhere in the current (2002) General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM) does it say that the orans posture is recommended for the congregation during the Our Father.

In GIRM 43 and 160, the paragraphs dealing with the people's posture during Mass, the only posture specified for the congregation at the Lord's Prayer is standing. It says nothing at all about what people do with their hands. This is not a change from the past.

The confusion arose among bishops in the 1990s, when some were suggesting the orans position in the ICEL Sacramentary, but not in the new Roman Missal. But even the Sacramentary revision was "specifically rejected by the Holy See after the new Missal appeared." The article continues:

At their November 2001 meeting, the bishops discussed "adaptations" to the new Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani (or GIRM) of the new Missal (reported in AB February 2002). The proposal to introduce the orans posture for the people was not included even as an option in the US' "adaptations" to the GIRM.
Furthermore, the bishops did not forbid hand-holding, either, even though the BCL originally suggested this in 1995. The reason? A bishop said that hand-holding was a common practice in African-American groups and to forbid it would be considered insensitive.
Thus, in the end, all reference to any posture of the hands during the Our Father was omitted in the US-adapted GIRM. The orans posture is not only not required by the new GIRM, it is not even mentioned.
The approved US edition of the GIRM was issued in April 2003, and is accessible on the USCCB web site - http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/current/revmissalisromanien.shtml
Not on the list
The posture of the people during prayer at Mass is not one of the items in the GIRM list that bishop may change on his own authority (see GIRM 387). Thus it is not legitimate for a bishop to require people to assume the orans posture during the Our Father.
The GIRM does say that a bishop has the "responsibility above all for fostering the spirit of the Sacred Liturgy in the priests, deacons, and faithful". He has the authority to see that practices in his diocese conform to the norms liturgical law, . . .

Holding hands during the Our Father is also clearly against the rubrics: thus should not be done on that basis alone. Catholic apologist Karl Keating wrote about this:

ORIGINS OF HAND-HOLDING
The current issue of the "Adoremus Bulletin" says this in response to a query from a priest in the Bronx:
"No gesture for the people during the Lord's Prayer is mentioned in the official documents. The late liturgist Fr. Robert Hovda promoted holding hands during this prayer, a practice he said originated in Alcoholics Anonymous. Some 'charismatic' groups took up the practice."
My long-time sense had been that hand-holding at the Our Father was an intrusion from charismaticism, but I had not been aware of the possible connection with AA. If this is the real origin of the practice, it makes it doubly odd: first, because hand-holding intrudes a false air of chumminess into the Mass (and undercuts the immediately-following sign of peace), and second, because modifications to liturgical rites ought to arise organically and not be borrowed from secular self-help groups.
Periodically, on "Catholic Answers Live" I am asked about hand-holding during Mass and explain that it is contrary to the rubrics. Usually I get follow-up e-mails from people who say, "But it's my favorite part of the Mass" or "We hold hands as a family, and it makes us feel closer."
About the latter I think, "It's good to feel close as a family, but you can hold hands at home or at the mall. The Mass has a formal structure that should be respected. That means you forgo certain things that you might do on the outside."
About the former comment I think, "If this is the high point of the Mass for you, you need to take Remedial Mass 101. The Mass is not a social event. It is the re-presentation of the sacrifice of Calvary, and it is the loftiest form of prayer. It should be attended with appropriate solemnity."

* * * * *


Further comments, from interaction on the CHNI board. The words of Rick Luquette over there will be in
green (official documents indented and in regular black) :
Currently the following is found from the USCCB Committee on Divine Worship:

Many Catholics are in the habit of holding their hands in the “Orans” posture during the Lord’s prayer along with the celebrant. Some do this on their own as a private devotional posture while some congregations make it a general practice for their communities.
Is this practice permissible under the current rubrics, either as a private practice not something adopted by a particular parish as a communal gesture?
No position is prescribed in the present Sacramentary for an assembly gesture during the Lord’s Prayer.

Well (to use the logical technique of reductio ad absurdum), if all gestures are left open, then could congregations spontaneously decide to hug one another during the Our Father? Or how about lifting up one arm heavenward? Or all turning towards each other (i.e., the center of the church)?
The General Instructions of the Roman Missal includes the following:

390. It is up to the Conferences of Bishops to decide on the adaptations indicated in this General Instruction and in the Order of Mass and, once their decisions have been accorded the recognitio of the Apostolic See, to introduce them into the Missal itself.

These adaptations include
The gestures and posture of the faithful (cf. no. 43 above);
The gestures of veneration toward the altar and the Book of the Gospels (cf. no. 273 above);
The texts of the chants at the entrance, at the presentation of the gifts, and at Communion (cf. nos. 48, 74, 87 above);
The readings from Sacred Scripture to be used in special circumstances (cf. no. 362 above);
The form of the gesture of peace (cf. no. 82 above);
The manner of receiving Holy Communion (cf. nos. 160, 283 above);
The materials for the altar and sacred furnishings, especially the sacred vessels, and also the materials, form, and color of the liturgical vestments (cf. nos. 301, 326, 329, 339, 342-346 above).
Directories or pastoral instructions that the Conferences of Bishops judge useful may, with the prior recognitio of the Apostolic See, be included in the Roman Missal at an appropriate place.

So it appears that at present, there is no recommended position for the hands of the faithful at the Our Father.
I should think it is obvious that it would be either hands at the side or clasped or in the hands-joined prayer position. But is not the orans position specifically prohibited, since it is imitating the posture of the priest? As Colin B. Donovan wrote (as I cited):

. . . since while lay people are doing this the deacon, whose postures are governed by the rubrics, may not do it. So, we have the awkward disunity created by the priest making an appropriate liturgical gesture in accordance with the rubrics, the deacon not making the same gesture in accordance with the rubrics, some laity making the same gesture as the priest not in accordance with the rubrics, and other laity not making the gesture (for various reasons, including knowing it is not part of their liturgical role). In the end, the desire of the Church for liturgical unity is defeated.

Also, Jimmy Akin cited the 1997 Instruction on Collaboration (specifically approved by Pope John Paul II):

Neither may deacons or non-ordained members of the faithful use gestures or actions which are proper to the same priest celebrant. It is a grave abuse for any member of the non-ordained faithful to "quasi preside" at the Mass while leaving only that minimal participation to the priest which is necessary to secure validity.

That precludes the orans position, though it itself doesn't seem to prohibit hand-holding (because the priest is not doing that at this time). What is your counter-explanation for that? What you decline to call any abuse at all is called "abuses" and "a grave abuse" by this papally-approved document. If bishops say otherwise, then the faithful Catholic still has the right to appeal to Church-wide proclamations from the Vatican, which carry more authority than bishops, and are to be followed in cases of contradiction. Some priests, however, have refused to give communion to a kneeling recipient, when the Church has specifically stated that all Catholics have a right to receive kneeling. The document above also made reference to Canon 907 from the Catholic Code of Canon Law:

Can. 907 In the eucharistic celebration deacons and lay persons are not permitted to offer prayers, especially the eucharistic prayer, or to perform actions which are proper to the celebrating priest.

Lacking specific instruction from the competent authority (the USCCB) you quote Jimmy Akin as saying holding hands during the Our Father is contrary to the rubrics. Following the link you provided to his article, he states:

Standing means standing without doing anything fancy with your arms.

This appears to be his rationale for declaring that holding hands is against the rubrics. Unfortunately, he does not give any authoritative reference for this statement. To the best of my knowledge, the definition of the word "standing" does not include "without doing anything fancy with your arms".
Let me cite him at greater length from this article:

Standing means standing without doing anything fancy with your arms. It is distinct, for example, from the orans posture, which the priest uses when he stands and prays with arms outstretched. It is also distinct from the hand-holding posture.
The latter is not expressly forbidden in liturgical law because it is one of those "Please don't eat the daisies" situations. The legislator (the pope) did not envision that anybody would try to alter the standing posture in this way. As a result, the practice is not expressly forbidden, the same way that standing on one foot and hopping up and down as an effort to get closer to God in heaven is not expressly forbidden.
In general what liturgical documents do is to say what people should be doing and not focus on what they should not be doing (though there are exceptions). To prevent "Please don't eat the daisies" situations, what the law does is prohibit things that aren't mentioned in the liturgical books. Here's the basic rule:

Can. 846 §1. In celebrating the sacraments the liturgical books approved by competent authority are to be observed faithfully; accordingly, no one is to add, omit, or alter anything in them on one’s own authority.

Akin is not the magisterium, of course, but he is a highly respected apologist who has written a book about rubrics in the Mass (Mass Confusion: The Do's and Don'ts of Catholic Worship; San Diego: Catholic Answers, 1999). He also regularly cites folks like canon lawyer Dr. Edward Peters (who has written about liturgical confusion and need for further codification).
He also says:

Changing from standing to hand holding during the Lord's Prayer would be an alteration or addition of something provided for in the liturgical books and thus would be at variance with the law.

Sneezing is an addition not provided in the liturgical books either. Standing and hand-holding are not either/or positions; they are both/and. I can hold hands while I stand.
I can also hug, kiss, clasp my hands far above my head, make a peace sign, clench my fists, point my fingers towards the priest with arms outstretched, or straight up, pick wax out of my ear, scratch my head, comb my hair, wave, put my hands on my waist (like an outfielder in baseball) and do any number of things while standing, that are not mentioned, either. Quite obviously a line has to be drawn somewhere. If these things were spontaneously introduced by the laity during Mass, then the Church has a right to more specifically define what can or can't be done (and folks should be reasonable in interpreting what "standing" means).
Isn't it common sense, anyway that "stand" means standing without implied reference to anything else (though not necessarily precluding gestures)? If one is, for example, told to stand in a courtroom, they wouldn't stand in the orans posture or hold someone's hands while standing, or put their hands on the top of their head. It would never cross their mind. So why would it be different in church?
I can assume the Orans posture while standing.
Not (or so it seems) according to Canon 907 and the high-level Instruction on Collaboration and deductively from the fact that even a deacon cannot do so. The laity can spontaneously do what a deacon cannot do?
Zenit, in a Q & A with Father Edward McNamara, professor of liturgy at the Regina Apostolorum Pontifical Athenaeum, provides the following:

Some readers asked if the U.S. bishops' vote against allowing the "orantes" posture meant that this gesture was forbidden in the United States. The bishops, in deciding not to prescribe or suggest any particular gesture during the Our Father, did not therefore proscribe any particular gesture either.
The bishops' conference decision does limit the possibility of another authority such as a pastor or even a diocesan bishop from prescribing this gesture as obligatory. But it need not constrain an individual from adopting the "orantes" posture nor, in principle, stop a couple or small group from spontaneously holding hands.
While holding hands during the Our Father is very much a novelty in the millenarian history of Catholic liturgy, the "orantes" posture, as one reader from Virginia reminds us, is as old as Christianity, is depicted in the catacombs, has always been preserved in the Eastern rites and was not reserved to the priest until after several centuries in the Latin rite -- and even then not everywhere.
The controversy regarding the use of the "orantes" posture for the Our Father appears to be confined to the English-speaking world. In many other places, it is pacifically accepted as an optional gesture which any member of the community is free to perform if so inclined.

I think this is interesting in light of the other things mentioned above. I'd sincerely like to see how Fr. McNamara harmonizes them.
So the Orans (or orantes) posture is not forbidden; it is a historical posture of the Church, and it is commonly accepted throughout the world.
It was not a common posture during Mass, according to canon lawyer Edward Peters, who observed:

While the orans position as such has a rich tradition in Jewish and even ancient Christian prayer life, there is no precedent for Catholic laity assuming the orans position in Western liturgy for at least a millennium and a half; that point alone cautions against its introduction without careful thought. Moreover — and notwithstanding the fact that few liturgical gestures are univocal per se — lay use of the orans gesture in Mass today, besides injecting gestural disunity in liturgy, could further blur the differences between lay liturgical roles and those of priests just at a time when distinctions between the baptismal priesthood and the ordained priesthood are struggling for a healthy articulation.

The previous Zenit article in the series includes the following statement from Fr. McNamara regarding the Orans/Orantes posture:

Despite appearances, this gesture is not, strictly speaking, a case of the laity trying to usurp priestly functions.
The Our Father is the prayer of the entire assembly and not a priestly or presidential prayer. In fact, it is perhaps the only case when the rubrics direct the priest to pray with arms extended in a prayer that he does not say alone or only with other priests. Therefore, in the case of the Our Father, the orantes posture expresses the prayer directed to God by his children.
The U.S. bishops' conference debated a proposal by some bishops to allow the use of the orantes posture while discussing the "American Adaptations to the General Instruction to the Roman Missal" last year. Some bishops even argued that it was the best way of ridding the country of holding hands. The proposal failed to garner the required two-thirds majority of votes, however, and was dropped from the agenda.

Fr. McNamara adds that this posture is accepted and officially recommended in Italy, with Vatican approval.
As I have said before, I am not in favor of holding hands during the Our Father. I accept the Orans posture but would quite happily do without it. However, given that there are no instructions to the contrary (and the document quoted by Mr. Akin is intended to address a completely different issue), I see no prohibition against it.

Then I look forward to your counter-explanations of what I have reiterated above. Thanks for the discussion.



TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Evangelical Christian; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; orans; ourfather
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To: 2nd amendment mama

“I know that I wouldn’t want to follow someone as judgmental and who ridicules others the way you do”

Save your condemnation to the poster I was replying to, who’s sole purpose on FR is ridiculing the Catholic Church and anyone that belongs to the Catholic Church.


221 posted on 05/17/2014 11:22:37 AM PDT by NKP_Vet ("It is foolish and wrong to mourn the men who died;we should thank God that such men lived" ~ Patton)
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To: metmom
OH Lord, where to begin? Help me!

One cannot separate the body from the head and survive. Christ is the head and the Church is the body. The two are one. Outside Jesus, there is no salvation ergo, outside the Church there is no salvation.

Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

KNOWING... a (1) : to perceive directly : have direct cognition of (2) : to have understanding of (3) : to recognize the nature of : discern b (1) : to recognize as being the same as something previously known (2) : to be acquainted or familiar with (3) : to have experience of 2 a : to be aware of the truth or factuality of : be convinced or certain of b : to have a practical understanding of

One who does not know the Church in her completeness is not responsible for not belonging to or remaining within her. There are those who through no fault of their own will not and/or cannot accept the Catholic Church. Some have been invincibly taught to despise her and need to have their heart pierced by opening their heart out of a desire to know the truth. Some will never hear of Jesus or His Church and for their salvation, we place our trust in the mercy of Him who desires that all may be saved.

We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff."

One should note that the two quotes from the 12th century were targeting a specific error that proclaimed a Christ different from Him that is our salvation. At the time, one was in the Church or one wasn't and those to whom this Papal Bull is addressed taught errors about the very nature of who Jesus is.

The Second Vatican council does not contradict this in any way for we know that those who believe that Jesus is the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, consubstantial with the Father and the Holy Spirit, who was born of a virgin, died on the cross, rose on the third day and ascended into heaven are members of the church through their baptism and faith. The pope is not the author of Christian unity, but the sign of it in this world. Though some may be imperfectly united to the Church, they are indeed members and subject to the pope, whether or not that is their intention. If one believes these things about Jesus, one has already submitted to the Catholic church for it was through her that God has revealed this truth.

There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. (Ephesians 4:4-6)

One can know this truth through a source other than Catholicism, however, the truth was itself revealed through the Church.

John said to him, "Teacher, we saw a man casting out demons in your name, and we forbade him, because he was not following us." But Jesus said, "Do not forbid him; for no one who does a mighty work in my name will be able soon after to speak evil of me. For he that is not against us is for us. (Mark 9:38-40

We see here the Scriptural support for this. John is concerned that others are doing good works in Jesus' name. Jesus is not offended by this. In fact, He tells John and the others with Him not to forbid such actions and explains why. What is interesting is that John says, "he was not following us" indicating that the man had not heard of Jesus through them and that the man was not a part of them. Also, by saying us and not you, Scripture is making clear that Jesus and the group are not separate but one.

We just recognize that they do not save us. Salvation is by faith, as it always has been.

Catholics also do not believe that the dos and don'ts save us. Salvation is through Jesus and Him alone. The dos and don'ts are what keep us saved for we know from Scripture that not all who call upon Jesus as Lord will be saved.

Consider the story of the Prodigal Son. The son had his inheritance but chose to squander it in sinful living. Now, he realized his sins and returns to his father and is given a joyous reception. Note that the father does not go looking for the son, but anxiously awaits his return. Also, the father declares that the son was dead and is now alive. The son was not really dead, was he? No, but he was dead to his father because he gave up his inheritance for worldly pleasures. It is the same with us. We are saved, we have received our inheritance when we are baptized, but we can squander that inheritance by leaving the home of our Father and living sinfully.

And in the story of the one lost sheep, Jesus tells us that the Good Shepherd who finds that lost sheep rejoices for having found what was lost. The sheep BELONGED to the fold and was lost and when it is found and returned there is joy in heaven.

In the quote from John, Jesus tells them they are clean because of the words He has spoken to them and they are already branches; a part of the vine. They have salvation, they are a part of Him, yet if they do not bear fruit, they will be cut off and left to whither and be burned. The branches are not fake, pretending to be a part of the vine, nor do they think they are a part of the vine when they aren't. Yet, Jesus says if they do not keep His commands, they will be cut off.

There is so much more I could offer on this subject, but this post has gotten very long and I wish to address one other thing, so I will stop with just the above.

In your posts, the quotes from 2 Corinthians and Ephesians are ones that I have seen you post before as support for the once saved always saved error.

I have this handy little program on my program that allows me to view about 15 different translations of Scripture without having each one in my possession. I notice that "guarantee" seems to be what the OSAS protestant clings to in their desire to believe that all they must do is say that Jesus is Lord in order to be saved.

What I find in my search of the different translations is that "guarantee" is not used in most older translations. I believe it is a construct of the newer, AMPLIFIED versions of the Bible that are recently popular. One can hardly be blamed, I suppose, if one is basing error on a faulty translation. The word has definitely infected a lot of recent translations, but is not to be found in the older ones, including the KJV.

Earnest is the word that is used in these older Bibles. Earnest as in a promise of things to come. Jesus is the first of the promises of God. He sent Him into the world and He fulfilled His mission by dying on the cross. We fulfill our call when we believe in Jesus and obey His commands. It is this message wherein we find our hope and in our courage. We can be sure that when we have faith in Jesus and live according to His words, we will be with Him in eternity. But we must guard our souls constantly, by putting on the armor of God in order to defend our salvation from the evil one who wishes to rob us of eternal joy with God.

If Paul did not worry that believers were in danger of turning back or succumbing to their old sinful ways, he would not have spent so much time in his letters telling them to be on guard, to remain faithful and to no lose hope. What need have we of the Armor of God, if we are not in any danger from the flaming arrows of the evil one?

I am comforted, as I believe most Christians are, that God is faithful. He is faithful and He will not abandon anyone, nor allow the evil one to take from Him what is His. But we must abide in Him to remain in His love. That is why I read Scripture, attend Mass, receive the Sacraments and pray for His protection.

222 posted on 05/17/2014 1:36:42 PM PDT by Jvette
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To: Elsie

Inanity seems to be your forte.


223 posted on 05/17/2014 1:37:35 PM PDT by Jvette
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To: NKP_Vet
The Catholic Church has doctrine on morality and faith. The Church is made up of sinners. Exactly like the protestant faiths, which have no structure and no set doctrine. Catholic doctrine is based on the Word of God.

A religion can not be based on the Word of God unless it is based on the word of God...The words of God is how God communicates with Christians...

To base one's religion on doctrine from one end of the bible to the other (along with man made tradition) may be Catholic doctrine but it is not bible doctrine...It is false doctrine...

Eph_4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Protestants have plenty of structure and doctrine...New Testament church doctrine...NOT doctrine for and from the Old Testament synagogues and priesthood which was done away with...

The Church is the truth!

Nope...The Catholic church is not the truth...There is no church which is the truth...The only truth is Jesus Christ...Jesus tells us so in the scriptures...

We are not to follow a church...We are to follow Jesus as he has put us into his church...

224 posted on 05/17/2014 2:11:05 PM PDT by Iscool (Ya mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailer park...)
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To: Iscool

-— The Church is the truth!

Nope...The Catholic church is not the truth... -—

The Church is “the pillar and foundation of truth.” Its in your Bible.

What’s not in the Bible? Luther’s doctrine of the Bible ALONE as the sole rule of faith.

Yet you reject the former and accept the latter.

Finally, Jesus commands us to “listen to the church.” And that anyone who fails to do so should be “treated as a pagan or tax collector.”


225 posted on 05/17/2014 2:19:44 PM PDT by St_Thomas_Aquinas ( Isaiah 22:22, Matthew 16:19, Revelation 3:7)
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To: Iscool

The Church came before the Gospels. Have a nice day.


226 posted on 05/17/2014 2:20:11 PM PDT by NKP_Vet ("It is foolish and wrong to mourn the men who died;we should thank God that such men lived" ~ Patton)
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To: metmom; NKP_Vet
So, it's up to 50,000 now? Where did you pull that stat from, as if anyone has to ask?

Ten minutes later, he dropped the number to 30,000!

227 posted on 05/17/2014 2:30:19 PM PDT by Alex Murphy ("the defacto Leader of the FR Calvinist Protestant Brigades")
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To: Alex Murphy

30,000, 50,000, 75,000. “WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE”!


228 posted on 05/17/2014 2:38:04 PM PDT by NKP_Vet ("It is foolish and wrong to mourn the men who died;we should thank God that such men lived" ~ Patton)
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To: Alex Murphy

—— Ten minutes later, he dropped the number to 30,000! ——

Is every man free to interpret the Bible as he sees fit?

IOW, does any earthly authority have God-given disciplinary authority over an individual Christian? If not, then the former must be true.

And if the former is true, isn’t every follower of Luther’s doctrine of the Bible ALONE as the sole rule of faith, his own denomination?


229 posted on 05/17/2014 2:39:33 PM PDT by St_Thomas_Aquinas ( Isaiah 22:22, Matthew 16:19, Revelation 3:7)
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To: Salvation
I am a life long Catholic who is more Bible focused than Catholic centric now.

I never held hands until my most recent Church where it is the custom and a friend likes it.

However, meaning no offense to you or the author of this article, this kind of silly focus is what is wrong with the Catholic Church.

You think Jesus would get upset if we pray holding hands? Then add in “spreading the wealth”, kissing the Pope's ring, or the latest unBibilical stuff coming from the Vatican and it's just too artificial for me at times. That said, Catholic Churches have holiness down. You can feel the presence walking into many.

230 posted on 05/17/2014 2:40:57 PM PDT by Vision (Living in beauty)
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To: Salvation

There are not that many girls who come in dressed immodestly, though. Of course, mine is a very small, one-priest parish. When I do see the spaghetti straps or the low-cut tops, it would be great to be able to wrap a shawl around such a female. I always have to wonder what their parents can possibly be thinking to let them leave the house like that, let alone to enter a house of worship dressed that way.


231 posted on 05/17/2014 2:57:45 PM PDT by Bigg Red (1 Pt 1: As he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in every aspect of your conduct.)
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To: Salvation

As far as I am concerned in front of the Eucharist I am there to adore, glorify, praise and pray. Christ IS and should be the center of everyone’s attention.....not talking with someone else.

&&&
Amen.


232 posted on 05/17/2014 3:02:51 PM PDT by Bigg Red (1 Pt 1: As he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in every aspect of your conduct.)
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas
The Church is “the pillar and foundation of truth.” Its in your Bible.

Your Church is not the pillar of anything Christian...

And it is God who is the pillar and ground of the Truth...Jesus said, 'I am the truth'...He didn't say the Catholic religion is the truth...

What’s not in the Bible? Luther’s doctrine of the Bible ALONE as the sole rule of faith.

Bible alone is all over the scriptures...Millions upon millions of Christians have found it...

Yet you reject the former and accept the latter.

One who actually believes the bible doesn't have any choice...

Finally, Jesus commands us to “listen to the church.” And that anyone who fails to do so should be “treated as a pagan or tax collector.”

Jesus doesn't tell us to listen to YOUR Church...Those of us who study the scriptures know that your religion is not the church Jesus was speaking of in the scriptures...

233 posted on 05/17/2014 3:05:24 PM PDT by Iscool (Ya mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailer park...)
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To: .45 Long Colt

You must be very busy, then, as there are many, many denominations out there for you to police.


234 posted on 05/17/2014 3:05:27 PM PDT by Bigg Red (1 Pt 1: As he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in every aspect of your conduct.)
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To: dsc

Well, you could always whack them with your cane. :)


235 posted on 05/17/2014 3:06:46 PM PDT by Bigg Red (1 Pt 1: As he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in every aspect of your conduct.)
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To: NKP_Vet
The Church came before the Gospels. Have a nice day.

Couldn't be further from the truth...Couldn't have the church without the Gospels...

Church came into being before the Gospels were put to writing but the Gospels were definitely there first...

236 posted on 05/17/2014 3:08:16 PM PDT by Iscool (Ya mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailer park...)
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To: Iscool

Christ started the Catholic Church, whether you want to believe it or not. The Gospels came after Christ died.


237 posted on 05/17/2014 3:46:58 PM PDT by NKP_Vet ("It is foolish and wrong to mourn the men who died;we should thank God that such men lived" ~ Patton)
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To: Jvette; metmom
One of the passages in question is:

2Cor 1:21-22 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

For which the Greek, from the Byzantine, is:

2Cor 1:21-22 ο δε βεβαιων ημας συν υμιν εις χριστον και χρισας ημας θεος ο και σφραγισαμενος ημας και δους τον αρραβωνα του πνευματος εν ταις καρδιαις ημων

The first word in bold above is “bebaion,” the idea of confirmation, frequently used in commercial settings to confirm a bargain. Which of course makes sense of the remaining terms used here, which are also elements of a secured contract.

The second word in bold above is “sphragisamenos,” being sealed is to be marked by the signature, signet ring, or other unique proof of identity, that we belong to God, and this sealing is done by God, who is the one taking action in this verse. We do not and cannot seal ourselves. We do not, by our own powers, have access to God’s “signet ring.”

The third bolded word above is “arrabona,” and indicates what we might loosely refer to as earnest money, but in Hebrew culture conveys more the idea of a pledge of covenant, a security given as a guarantee that the deal will go through, though we only receive part payment at the beginning. See ערב for the related Hebrew stem indicating “pledge.”

So while this passage alone does not elaborate the entire concept of “perseverance of the saints,” it definitely supports it.

BTW, I noticed in your post a standard misrepresentation of the classic Protestant position. This is always fascinating to me because the accusation is that we do not represent Roman views correctly, and a great deal of “indignancy” swirls around us “getting it right.” Which is fine. We should represent our opponents’ views accurately.

But what’s good for the goose is good for the gander. We state it over and over again and it is as if it is never heard, but claiming Protestants believe “all they must do is say that Jesus is Lord in order to be saved” is simply false. That is a straw man. The whole point of a straw man is that no one really believes it, but because it is straw, it makes a fun and easy target for attack.

But it’s wrong and misleading. That’s not what we believe. We’ve said it, collectively, probably thousands of times on these pages. Real faith makes you a new creation in Christ. You change. You really do become a new person. You don’t ever just stop with saying some magic set of words and that’s it. Those words, Paul says, come from a heart that really believes, and if you really believe that Jesus is Lord, you cannot help but act on that belief. You change. Old lusts literally die. You get a whole new set of motivations. You love God, you want always to please Him. You begin to love others in a new way. There is healing, reconciliation, peace, a new way forward. It’s amazing.

And yes, just as Paul says, it is the work of God’s Holy Spirit, and it gives you a strong signal that you and God are finally at peace with each other. The deal is confirmed, and though only paid in part, we know we can count on God, who will not allow anyone to pluck us out of His hands. We have His word on that:

John 10:27-30 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one.

Peace,

SR

238 posted on 05/17/2014 3:49:40 PM PDT by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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To: NKP_Vet

Your opinion is meaningless.


239 posted on 05/17/2014 4:16:40 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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To: NKP_Vet; 2nd amendment mama

Common courtesy is also lacking on the part of the RC’s when they continually fail to ping people about whom they are talking.

So show me where I’ve ridiculed any Catholic.

Provide the post numbers and links and I’ll provide the popcorn while I wait.


240 posted on 05/17/2014 4:18:38 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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