Christian leaders who uphold Genesis

Creation Ministries International ^ | 8-5-14 | Don Batten

[fishtank]

Christian leaders who uphold Genesis

Modern-era theologians and prominent church leaders from around the world affirm biblical creation (historical Genesis)

by Don Batten

The modern creation movement is mostly driven by those with primarily scientific qualifications. Some of a theological bent argue that we scientists don’t understand the ‘genre’ of Genesis (i.e. we are theological ignoramuses) and that Genesis is not meant to be understood as history. In part answer to this, I have listed here just some of those with theological qualifications who have taken a public stand for understanding Genesis as straightforward history, just as we scientists do. Those listed represent a wide spectrum, from pastors and evangelists to professors of church history, theology, and Hebrew, and from various church affiliations.

(Note: this list is not meant to be exhaustive. So, the absence of names of staff from a given theological institution should not be read as meaning that there are none at that institution. Also, we will update this article periodically with additional names.)

(In alphabetical order)

Randy Alcorn, MA in Biblical Studies, author of Heaven, and president of Eternal Perspective Ministries. He became a biblical creationist because “the straightforward reading of the text seemed to me to say it’s a young earth.” He also believes that the problem of evil “cannot be properly understood without accepting Creation, the Fall, and Redemption as real history.”

[ravenwolf]

God doesn’t need time, WE do. That, I believe, is what Peter’s passage is saying.

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That very well could be.

[ravenwolf]

That very well could be.

But I would not bet on it, these are the Generations in which God made heaven and earth, Generations, not hours, not days, most likely thousands of years.

[boatbums]

Or not. Seeing as God could have just as easily SAID thousands of years - and He didn’t - it’s much easier to just take God at His word and believe when He said “day”, He meant DAY.

[roamer_1]

But I would not bet on it, these are the Generations in which God made heaven and earth, Generations, not hours, not days, most likely thousands of years.

Study the prophetic import of the Jubilee and Grand Jubilee to find your error.

[ravenwolf]

Or not. Seeing as God could have just as easily SAID thousands of years - and He didn’t - it’s much easier to just take God at His word and believe when He said “day”, He meant DAY.

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He also could have just as easy said six days in genesis 2 but he didn’t, he said these are the generations and I believe if he had of meant days he would have said days.

[ravenwolf]

Study the prophetic import of the Jubilee and Grand Jubilee to find your error.

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I would say it is just as easily your error, the church teaches that every thing was created in 6 of our literal days because it says days in genesis 1 but they ignore the fact that genesis 2 dispels the notion that the days are literal.

And they even use the fourth commandment for one of their proofs but we can see what they did with it, they threw it out the door and chose another day to take the place of the one god gave us.

They strain on a gnat and swallow a camel.

[roamer_1]

I would say it is just as easily your error,[...]

Perhaps, but I don't think so.

[...]the church teaches that every thing was created in 6 of our literal days because it says days in genesis 1 but they ignore the fact that genesis 2 dispels the notion that the days are literal.

Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, (e-Sword:KJV)

Gen 2:4 These are births of the heavens and of the earth in their being prepared, in the day of Jehovah God's making earth and heavens; (e-Sword:Young's Literal Translation)

It seems to me the passage you quote speaks to order-of-decent, the ordering of the creation.

As I said, study the Jubilees. The proof is there. It is literally one week of time.

[ravenwolf]

It seems to me the passage you quote speaks to order-of-decent, the ordering of the creation.

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I believe Gen 1 is the ordering of the creation and Gen two is talking about the fulfilling of it.

Gen 2:1
Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

Gods work was finished was finished but it had not become fulfilled because the trees had not grown nor was there a man to till the ground.

6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Verse one says it was finished verse 7 shows that God did some special work at a later time.

I have read about the Jubilees but have not read it but I can not see that it would add anything because we are looking at it from entirely two different angles.

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

God does things in his time, all of our times are to correspond with Gods time not the other way around so we use 7 literal days to correspond with the seven days of Gods time.

At least that is what I believe, as I know nothing.

[roamer_1]

I have read about the Jubilees but have not read it but I can not see that it would add anything because we are looking at it from entirely two different angles.

If one converts the history as found in the Bible into days (using the various genealogies) then convert the Grand Jubilees to days, and project them backwards toward creation, you will find an exact 7 day discrepancy... IIRC one week longer in the Jubilee than the genealogy addresses... I think that is precisely by design. The count for the Jubilees starts on the first day, in the first instant.

Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.


Exo 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying, [...]
Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

My main concern is for the Sabbath - YHWH SPOKE above with great precision, and I will take him at his word. If the reason for the Sabbath is figurative, then the Sabbath itself is figurative, and the hallowing thereof is figurative, and then poof! Sunday worship. So no... YHWH meant what He said, and said what He meant (and YHWH is accurate, 100 percent) :P

God does things in his time, all of our times are to correspond with Gods time not the other way around so we use 7 literal days to correspond with the seven days of Gods time.

But it is YHWH who defined the time. HE defined the 7 literal days. That IS His 'time'. I understand your position, and I use 1/1000 in determining prophecy all the time. I used to be exactly where you are assuming a c.10k earth age. But it cannot pan out without doing damage to time sensitive parts of the prophecy, and without creating a nonsensical gap in the genealogy - which purposes to perform an exact record of time, that being extraordinarily needful in the pursuit of the prophets.

At least that is what I believe, as I know nothing.

May YHWH bless you, brother (sis?)!! An inquiring mind is how one learns! Test everything, and hold on to that which is good. : )

[ravenwolf]

Yes, it is sort of like reading Revelation, about the time I think I have one part figured out it brings up a problem some where else, some people are willing to just ignore those problems, I can`t.

[DoodleDawg]

The modern creation movement is mostly driven by those with primarily scientific qualifications.

And yet I don't believe that any of the men he menitoned in the article came from the scientific community.

[roamer_1]

Yes, it is sort of like reading Revelation, about the time I think I have one part figured out it brings up a problem some where else, some people are willing to just ignore those problems, I can`t.

Absolutely! but the pitfall wrt creationism is in giving science the benefit of the doubt, rather than YHWH - It is hard enough to comprehend the immensity of creating a human thumb in one day, not to mention the whole of everything we know, and far, far beyond to the very ends of the universe and the farthest reaches of time in six days! So it is natural enough to be skeptical of the event, without the many proofs that science puts forth. But then, my God has a greater understanding than all the scientists that have ever lived. Sometimes it is hard to remember that.

And if I allow myself to wax allegorical in the first verses, what mischief will I cause by the end of the Book? And you know that to be true, I think, because that is exactly what most folks do, and the mighty words of YHWH are daily reduced to Platonic (or Socratic) drivel.

If one does not take care to preserve the structures defined in the Bible, one can make it say just about anything.

[boatbums]

He also could have just as easy said six days in genesis 2 but he didn’t, he said these are the generations and I believe if he had of meant days he would have said days.

But He DID say days:

And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day. (Gen. 1:3)

And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day. (Gen. 1:6)

And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day. (Gen. 1:13)

And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day. (Gen. 1:19)

And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day. (Gen. 1:23)

And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day. (Gen. 1:31)

Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array. By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done. (Gen. 2:1-3)

[ravenwolf]

But He DID say days:

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He did not say six days in gen chapter 2 he said generations.

If it were literal days why would he say generations?

[ravenwolf]

Yes, if God had of told me that he created the heavens and earth and every thing in it in six literal days I would certainly believe it but I did not get that information from him I just get it from people who believe that is what he said.

For years I have denied that oil was a fossil fuel coming from dead dinosaurs simply because it does not make sense to me.

I have showed my disdain for that idea right here on free republic but do you think the literal six day creationist people will agree with me? no.

Why not? the earth has not changed hardly at all in just six thousand years, I know of no great world upheavals that would put dinosaur remains thousands of feet under ground all over the world, yet it is pretty much believed by even the people who believe in the six literal day creation.

The scientists( some of them Christian ) have found dinosaur bones all over the world, I have saw dinosaur tracks, yet the Bible only mentions the liathian and the behemoth and for all we know they are most likely still with us today if we knew what they were.

So how about the dinosaurs who every one seems to think went ten thousand feet under ground to make oil.

Where were they at in Adams time and how many of them did Noah put on the ark?

We still have the clean and unclean animals God mentioned so why not the dinosaurs?

I believe they may have been extinct or close to it by Adams time.

[boatbums]

He did not say six days in gen chapter 2 he said generations. If it were literal days why would he say generations?

You're getting hung up on an English word again, as well as leaving out the point we already discussed that Genesis 2:4 was speaking about the account of what was just stated previously. Here is Gen. 2:1-4

Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array. By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done. This is the account (generations, in some versions) of the heavens and the earth when they were created, when the Lord God made the earth and the heavens.

The word translated as "generations" in some versions, is the Hebrew word towlĕdah, and means:

I.descendants, results, proceedings, generations, genealogies

A.account of men and their descendants

i.genealogical list of one's descendants

ii.one's contemporaries

iii.course of history (of creation etc)

B.begetting or account of heaven (metaph)

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H8435&t=KJV)

We have to look at the context of how the word was used to know which English word best fits the one the original language used.

It's no skin off my nose which way you want to lean on this. My point has been that we CAN accept God created what He did in six literal days. Obviously, we are talking about the initial creation and not how the various created things changed and mutated from the start. Those things very well could have taken thousands of years to become what we know today. I have two cats, one is a Ragdoll and the other is a Birman. They are considered "pure bred" for the breed (though both breeds have Siamese and Persian genetics), but, they both BEGAN from a feline species thousands of years ago. I don't believe the Garden of Eden contained every kind of tree or bird or fish or creeping things that would ever exist, but the starting points of those species.

I can accept that God is able to do whatever He wants to do and is not limited by time or anything else. I believe the account He gave us in His word because His word is truth.

[ravenwolf]

I can accept that God is able to do whatever He wants to do and is not limited by time or anything else. I believe the account He gave us in His word because His word is truth.

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I believe as you do, we just see the accounts different.

[roamer_1]

For years I have denied that oil was a fossil fuel coming from dead dinosaurs simply because it does not make sense to me. I have showed my disdain for that idea right here on free republic but do you think the literal six day creationist people will agree with me? no.

Well, I kinda do agree with you... primarily because oil replenishes... At least in places. BUT, there is a bit of errata which disproves that thinking - That being intelligently designed and crafted objects found in coal deposits... I think those deposits were laid down by the flood. What that does to oil (as oil and coal seem to be related) should be pondered some... So while I agree with you in spirit, I remain ambivalent because of evidence that proves error in all popular memes. Thus I remain a pretty staunch Biblical literalist. Give YHWH the benefit of the doubt (instead of science), and you will be surprised (stunned even) by what He will reveal.

So how about the dinosaurs who every one seems to think went ten thousand feet under ground to make oil. Where were they at in Adams time and how many of them did Noah put on the ark?

Here I depart to a place far beyond the tinfoil veil for most folks - Genesis 6 depicts the times wherein the Nephilim came, breeding with the daughters of man, creating hybrids which were never meant to be, filling the world with violence, evil, and corruption. I see the scope of that to be much, much wider than most. The Bible says the whole of creation was corrupted (not just man). I think for the most part, dinosaurs were a part of that corruption; an hybrid against the natural law. I think they didn't make it on the ark for that reason - because they were a corruption, breaking the law of 'everything according to it's kind'.

And I will point to those coal layers as proof. there are objects embedded therein that will fry your mind. There are coalified human remains. there are coalified dino tracks. There is exquisite jewelry and artifacts. The same can be found in the debris from deep water well drills... WAY down there.

Those OOPARTS (out of place artifacts) mean a whole lot to me, because each and every such find (if you can find them) disproves what we have been taught to believe.

[ravenwolf]

Thus I remain a pretty staunch Biblical literalist. Give YHWH the benefit of the doubt (instead of science), and you will be surprised (stunned even) by what He will reveal.

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Exactly my thoughts, we just have a problem agreeing what is literal and what is not.

[ravenwolf]

Here I depart to a place far beyond the tinfoil veil for most folks - Genesis 6 depicts the times wherein the Nephilim came, breeding with the daughters of man,

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I may be off the veil just as far as you in the minds of most folks.

Gen 6
1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

I happen to believe that Adam was a special creation, not in the creation on the sixth day but later on in Gen ch 2.

Therefore Adams off spring are referred to as the sons of God and the daughters of men are the daughters of the men and women created on day six,

From this marriage came the Nephilim .

your idea that the dinosaurs were in Adams time but were destroyed by the flood is believable but how could so much oil be made in such a short time considering that only some of the dinosaurs would be turned into oil if fossil fuel was correct?