Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

To: CTrent1564
Grace and Free will can’t go together?? I disagree

It all depends on how you interpret "free will". Please note the following observation from Moses:

Our "free will" is to act corruptly and to provoke the Lord. It is only because of God's steadfast love that He constantly works with us to bring us around. There isn't anything that we do for God including wanting to live for Him.

Free will is an illusion. Our desire is to freely act against God. We deceive ourselves when we believe we are acting for God.

Mary is not God and no Catholic teaching would ever make such claim because that is heresy.

Let's look at the facts that are claimed about Mary by the Catholic Church:

Now how does any of this differs with our Lord Jesus?

The [sic] issue of pre-Vatican II and post Vatican II on who is part of the Church is what you are getting at. There is only 1 Church, all are in it at some level, some more than others, but all are related to it or part of it so the question of how one understands “outside the Church there is no salvation” is one of those things that has always been part of Church teaching, but it has never been completely and definitively defined.

The dogma of the Roman Catholic Church reads as following:

Quite frankly, I don't understand what has not been "completely" defined.
538 posted on 08/29/2014 7:55:41 AM PDT by HarleyD ("... letters are weighty, but his .. presence is weak, and his speech of no account.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 407 | View Replies ]


To: HarleyD

HarleyD:

Salvation was given to Mary by a Special Grace and thus she had the Grace to respond in faith to the Angel Gabriel. And not to dispute Moses, but all OT texts should be interpreted in the light of the Person of Christ, i.e. as Saint Augustine said the OT prefigures the NT and NT fulfills in Christ the OT.

So again, I don’t outright reject free will the way the Reformed theologians do. To Love God one as to be free, otherwise it is not Love. Are we weakened due to the consequences of original sin, yes. But does God Grace enlighten and transform us to live out our faith and practice the virtue of Love, which is the greatest of faith, hope and love [Saint Paul in 1 Corinthians] yes it does.

As for #20 yes that is true, but who is and is not a member is the question. Like I said, even when that statement was written by Father Ott, and he is an orthodox Priest theologian not doubt, Fr. Fenney was claiming or interpreting that only those who are visibly in the Catholic Church would be saved, thus Orthodox and Protestants have no chance. Fenney was excommunicated by Rome in the 1940’s over this view and we are talking over 20 to 25 years before the close of Vatican 2.

Take a look at the Fr. Feeney case, he rejected baptism of blood and baptism of desire [which the Church Fathers affirm] and had a restricted view of outside the Church there is no salvation and those same Church Fathers affirmed “extra Eccliesiam nulla salus” [outside the Church there is no salvation].

Feeney was correct about secularism, communism and free masonery. He was an early prophet on the hole anti-hate speech movement which seemed to have its origins in the Ivey league in the 1950’s, and of course now if you speak out for traditional marriage, you are charged with hate speech.

Here is the actual Letter from the Holy Office in 1949 [the CDF] which had Pope Pius XII affirmation. Again, this is still 16 years before the close of Vatican II. So the reformulated statement in Vatican II in a positive manner “All salvation is from Christ through his Church” is in keeping with the Dogma and actually communicates it more accurately, despite the protests of some sedevacantist.

So I actually thank you for bringing up #20 in Ott’s list because it allowed me to go back and provide some clarification on this.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/curia/cdffeeny.htm


539 posted on 08/29/2014 8:43:36 AM PDT by CTrent1564
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 538 | View Replies ]

To: HarleyD

And, of course, the questions about Mary remain unanswered.


545 posted on 08/29/2014 9:53:17 AM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 538 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson