Posted on 09/07/2014 5:21:18 PM PDT by narses
thanks!
Hey, I’m on your side on this one. I know what it says.
CC
There’s no doubt a great many Catholics are born again... Despite being exposed to many doctrines that undermine the meaning of being born again.
Many Catholics are not born again and I hope they come to that point. I wish that for all.
What I said is equally applicable to every Protestant group.
Paul gives a list in Acts 22:16: “And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’”
All those things were appropriate, including rising. Note it does not say “be baptized TO wash away your sins, but “AND” - part of the list.
Had God wanted to convey the idea that water baptism causes regeneration, He could easily have had SOMEONE say “be baptized in water TO wash away your sins and give you life” - but He did not.
Instead, we see an emphasis on the Baptism of Jesus being a Baptism in the Holy Spirit:
“I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.”
We see there the difference between water baptism and what Jesus does in saving us: one is a physical immersion to show repentance that has already taken place, while the other is the difference between Heaven and Hell!
From Jewish thought:
“The second stage was tebela. Tebelawas immersion into water. Having been circumcised, the Gentile proselyte was then immersed in water. Why? Because they said it identifies a Gentile as dying to the Gentile world. The old life is dead, the old life apart from God, apart from the promises of God, apart from the knowledge of God, apart from the truth of God, that is dead and he comes forth a new person with a new life and a new family and a new relationship to the true God. And so they said nothing illustrates that better than immersion and so it was in proselyte Gentile immersion that baptism first appeared in redemptive history...
...This is such a beautiful theme in the New Testament, with the epistles. Galatians 3:27, “For all of you who were baptized,” that doesn’t mean water, but all of you who are immersed into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. And it’s symbolized in water.
In Colossians chapter 2 verse 12, “Having been buried with Him in baptism,” it doesn’t mean water there, it means you were literally immersed into His death and you were raised up, it says. “You have been made alive together with Him having forgiven us all our transgressions.” It’s the immersion into Christ’s death, immersion spiritually into His burial. The immersion into His resurrection so that we die and He lives in us and Paul says, “I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live yet it’s not I but Christ lives in me. I die in Him, I rise in Him.”
And perhaps the most explicit passage of all, Romans 6, “Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ,” that’s not water baptism there, that’s immersed into Christ, have been immersed into His death, “Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death in order that as Christ was raised from the death through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.” We are dying with Him. We are buried with Him. And we rise with Him, immersed into Him. And though those passages are not referring to water, it is water baptism that symbolizes that spiritual reality. And when Peter says in 1 Peter 3:21 these words, he makes that distinction, he says, “Baptism now saves you.” What baptism? “Not the removal of dirt from the flesh,” not the water baptism, it is the spiritual union that saves you. “That is the washing of regeneration,” Titus 3:5. “That is the washing away of your sins,” Acts 22:16. But baptism is the symbol of it, water baptism...”
http://www.gty.org/resources/sermons/80-57/understanding-baptism?Term=baptism
Folks need to remember that “baptism” doesn’t always refer to baptism in water, or even in the Holy Spirit. Jesus talked about death as a baptism. It means immersion, and immersion covers the meaning. It is used to mean identify with Moses, and it is used to mean identifying with Christ.
As a Baptist, I believe in water baptism. In fact, I probably believe in it stronger than many Freepers, since I believe it ought to naturally follow conversion almost immediately. It is an act of obedience that unites us with Christ. It marks our new life, our request for God to change us and make us like Jesus...but it is nonsensical for a baby, or for anyone who does not first believe. It cannot give life, only reflect the life given by Jesus thru the Baptism that Jesus does - baptism in the Holy Spirit:
“For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.”
Steve Ray "Are You Born Again? A Catholic Response"
John 3:3 - A Catholic Perspective and Interpretation with Scott Hahn
May God bless all of us with a deeper understanding of this question and its truthful multifaceted response, and I bid you all goodnight.
There is Catholicism with its Catechism and Credo, the great mustard tree Christ spoke of His Church where the Eucharist is a core, central, and indispensable belief for salvation and then there are a withering and withered assortment of mushrooms beliefs of every other brand of Christianity under the sun, that are mostly pure unadulterated rubbish. Think Joel Osteen.
Anyone who denies the central truth of the Eucharist practices heresy.
This is why noted British essayist Hillaire Belloc in his Book “The Great Heresies,” said that unlike other heresies, Protestantism spawned a “cluster of heresies.”
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~spok/metabook/heresies.html
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/christ-in-the-eucharist
Naw...it can't be...it's an "Ecumenical" thread dontcha know? /s
Guess Jesus tricked that theif beside him on the cross. He hold him he would be in paradise with him today. Of course, he was never baptized.
So, are you admitting that it isn't an actual water baptism that saves one, but faith in Jesus Christ?
Then why do some Roman Catholics on this site mock and contradict non-Catholic Christians whenever we use the phrase "born again"??? "NO!", we are scolded, "It's born from above, not born again!". Do you now concede born again is an acceptable term?
Jesus then refers to a water and spirit birth, and connects the one to your first fleshly birth and being born again is a spiritual birth. This is so simple. As a former Catholic I am appalled by the lack of biblical understanding by Catholic brothers who are born again because they have believed on Christ.
Baptism is a very important commandment of The Lord, but not all who are baptized are saved just as all who are circumcised are not true Israel. Read the scriptures and pray and understand versus believing the traditions of any denomination.
It takes an act of human volition to ‘hear’ and a willingness of one’s spirit to respond.
===== revisiting the debate that had been interrupted: =======
Thesis:
The whole argument given in this article is illogical and unspiritual. The fact is that theortists of all denominations as well as non-denominational exegetes confuse God's theocentric operation of regeneration with humans' anthropocentric operation of water baptism, and founder theologically on their premises, putting baptism to an unauthorized use.
Regeneration
The encapsulated doctrine of regeneration
, which nearly all miss, is entirely summed up by the beloved John, in addressing a narrower audience than in his Gospel, is as follows:
"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God" ( 1 John 3:9 AV).
πας G3956 A-NSM
ο G3588 T-NSM
γεγεννημενος G1080 V-RPP-NSM
εκ G1537 PREP
του G3588 T-GSM
θεου G2316 N-GSM
αμαρτιαν G266 N-ASF
ου G3756 PRT-N
ποιει G4160 V-PAI-3S
οτι G3754 CONJ
σπερμα G4690 N-NSN
αυτου G0846 P-GSM
εν G1722 PREP
αυτω G846 P-DSM
μενει G3306 V-PAI-3S
και G2532 CONJ
ου G3756 PRT-N
δυναται G1410 V-PNI-3S
αμαρτανειν G264 V-PAN
οτι G3754 CONJ
εκ G1537 PREP
του G3588 T-GSM
θεου G2316 N-GSM
γεγεννηται G1080 V-RPI-3S
(1 John 3:9 TR)
Substantial meaning:
[Every] [one who] [stands being irreversibly being-born/(re)generated completely passively but willingly accepting] [of/by] [The] [God] [cannot] [persistently/habitually do/commit] [sin] [because/since] [(the) generative Seed] [of Him (referent here is The God)] [(it) always/continually remains] [within] [him (referent here is that 'whosoever' human)] [and] [he/she is of oneself unable to keep on] [habitually sinning] [because/since] [he aside from any effort on his part stands permanently born/(re)generated] [of/by] [The] [God].
To recapitulate, the person in whom the generative Seed--the true Written/Spoken Word of The God--has entered into the mind, heart, and soul of that carnal person (Rom. 10:8), and caused a new, real, spiritual entity to germinate as a result of the singularly life-creating generative power of that Word, has become him/herself a newly created spiritual human entity of eternal absolute life and union with Christ, who cannot go forward in this life habitually committing sin against The God, because he/she has no longer the power, desire, or ability to constantly choose to sin.
Regeneration in the spiritual dimension is not the product of external application of the material substance water in the sphere of physical dimensions. Regeneration, the creation of a newly begotten spiritual son of The God, is the consequence of the sown Seed of The Word onto the good ground of a broken, contrite, convicted soul on/in which the Seed germinates and irresistibly grows without action of any kind of the recipient, to produce a completely new spirit babe occupying the old fleshy husk (but in competition with the old carnal person, now freed from Satan's grasp). That new being does have the ability to vanquish the resistance of the old carnal resident personality.
Water Baptism
In contrast, the function of the rite of water baptism simply has nothing to do with originating or implementing regeneration. What the disciples' baptism is, is a rite of recognizing and affirming a publicly expressed permanent commitment, applied under the delegated authority of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit, and conveying enrollment as an obedient disciple of The Christ, whilst keeping/preserving the totality of His Commandments watchfully secured and unchanged in any degree. Subsequent to Pentecost, of course it has been desired that the commitment is estimated to be sincere and arising from s soul freed from the penalty of sins, and from the power of Sin as a master.
Of course, paedobaptism is an utterly contraindicated contrivance, without relevancy, and nonsense in this scenario of God's sovereign method of saving.
Take the time now to register the fact that, though having undergone immersion in living water by John Baptist (or one of his assigned disciples)(similar to ritual cleansing in a mikvah) with a view toward a life of repentance from sins, neither conversion nor regeneration was the intent of the change of status relative to Jesus that the purpose of water baptism was to inaugurate and convey to others. Jesus' select disciples knew by personal experience what the baptism described in Mt. 28:18-20 was, because they had already submitted to that induction ceremony, with Jesus the Master Teacher initiating their own receipt of acceptance into The Company of The Committed. Thereafter, they had further baptized other Jewish volunteers as authorized disciples of the Master/Rabbi Jesus/Iesous/Yeshua. This they learned to perform as commissioned disciple assistants, even though they were not yet converted (Lk. 22:32,34) nor were they regenerated (Ac. 2:4).
Of course, because of their profession and acceptance of accountability, you must include Judas Iscariot as also one of the Christ-baptized disciples(Jn. 3:22, 26) (who likely with the others assisted in the baptizing of other secondary disciples?) during Jesus' earthly ministry.
Please note that Peter was not converted until his permanent change of mind was examined by the Risen Christ on the Galilee shore (Jn. 21:14-18), where Jesus affirmed that his conversion was now secured, thus putting him back on the same footing with (but most certainly not above) the other unflaggingly loyal fellow disciples, and also negating Peter's six denials of association with Jesus. Even then, neither Peter nor the rest of the Company, some 120 souls including Mary (Ac. 1:15, 2:1) were yet regenerated/born anew, until Jesus baptized them in/with entry of The Holy Spirit as the Indwelling Comforter of that new spiritual human within each one's external shell.
The proper identification of the water baptism introduced by Christ is a rite of recognizing the sworn commitment to Him by both the delegated baptizer and the candidate disciple, as a visibly completed process of recruitment into an eternal life as disciple of and service to the Lord Jesus Christ. Any other suggested use or meaning of this rite has no scriptural basis.
The Basis for Baptism on Pentecost
Countering the misinterpretation of Acts 2:38, where baptism is wrongly held up as being an agency prerequisite to salvation, the preposition "eis" is supposedly interpreted as the key to defining remission as a consequence of baptism. In this incorrect use, the interpretation stands in opposition to the doctrine of sole fide, which doctrine is elsewhere and otherwise clearly affirmed by a plethora of other supporting Scripture contextually.
The correct use of (the multipurposed) preposition "eis" here is in the foundational sense, in which the action contemplated or cited is based upon a previous action and therefore is translated as 'on the basis of' or 'based upon.' A paralleling example of this use is Mt. 12:41b, as follows:
". . . οτι μετενοησαν εις το κηρυγμα ιωνα και ιδου πλειον ιωνα ωδε." (TR)
'. . . because they repented on the basis of (eis) Jonah's proclamation as an herald."
(And God graciously withheld the Ninevites' awful punishment on the basis of their individual and corporate repentance, to Jonah's dismay!)
The thought of Peter's proclamation and invitation is here correctly shown:
". . . Repent, and be baptized every one of you (who has not yet repented/believed/been born anew) in the name of Jesus Christ for = on the basis of the remission of sins (which will occur instantaneously with one's repentance and simultaneous belief), and ye shall (at the very moment God knows that you do totally commit trust in Christ) receive the gift of the Holy Ghost (after you have repented/believed and instantly consequently have been justified, your sins washed away by the blood of Christ, but which must necessarily have occurred before you then submit yourself to baptism as agreeing to be inducted into The Company of The Committed Ones as a lifelong disciple).
This, therefore, when understood and agreeing with the broader context, brings this verse into agreement with salvation by faith alone, in the person and work if Jesus The Christ alone, under the determinate will of The God alone, without any supererogatory contribution of the human.
The Planting and Gestation of the Generative Seed/b>
You see, it was the preaching of the Word by Jesus (of the Kingdom of Heaven to the Jews, and after the death of John Baptizer the Kingdom of God to the world), with demonstrated application during his earthly ministry, which then planted this Generative Seed, the Spiritual Semen Virile (Ps. 126:6) into the hearts of the lost sheep of Israel. Requiring a period of gestation--for some hearers about three and a half year--finally the moment came that Peter, under the immanent urgency of the Holy Ghost, acted as midwife to the new birth of hundreds of newly born spiritual souls of that lost nation, born of Christ the Spiritual Inseminator. Peter told of a New Covenant, and called them forth to repent, believe, be reborn in regeneration, and then subsequently be publicly recognized through baptism, joining themselves visibly to the local Company of The Committed, the local assembly of disciples, the church at Jerusalem, the Body of The Christ, demonstrating loyalty to the Lord and to each other.
In the matter of "Are XXXXs Born Again?" (fill in with Catholics, Methodist, Orthodox, Independent Baptists, etc.) God does not seem to be partial, or perhaps even concerned with one's religious affiliation. But His Scripture indicates that if one is intelligent, accountable, responsible, and has received the genuine authoritative and complete account of the Gospel of Grace, together conviction of the clear charge of personal depravity, and has not responded with confession, conversion, and committed trust in Jesus The Anointed Lord and Savior, having your sins swept away by the fountain of Christ's Blood; but only relying on a doctrine and practice of water baptism as an infant or adult for remittance of sins and salvation; then you have no Scriptural basis to say you are saved, born anew/again, or qualified for inclusion by The God in His Kingdom as His Child, born of the Word.
Neither is there much hope for having heard a revival message, being spiritually convicted, saying a formula prayer, then being assured of having thus been "saved" -- not much hope at all, AFIK.
Completely place you total, persistent trust in Christ and His Faith, with a convicted, contrite, repentant heart, be regenerated, and enter the Kingdom of The God as a newborn spiritual babe!
If you know that you have never experienced this, it's time to reconsider your religion, eh?
Please avoid these cut and paste stuff. You do not address the core issue of authority. It’s not for you to “think” what God would or would not have done. What he did is explicitly clear. Peter was commanded to teach not various versions of the Divine Word (written AND oral) and to insure we don’t have a a quilt of different versions that necessarily results in confusion leading to the loss of souls. He established ONE Church to advance this ONE truth with ONE authority guided by the Hoy Spirit on matters of doctrine.
At its center is the Eucharist and the central and highest form of worship is the Mass, all the rest is useless without a belief in these core matters that are reduced to the Credo and the Catechism of the Catholic Church. If you don’t you are fee to pick and choose from the many versions of David Koresh or Jim Jones or Rev. Jeremiah Wright or Rev. Swaggart or the Osteens.
This truth was established over 2000 years ago when Christ commanded Peter to lead His Church. If you wish to debate this authority along with 35, 000 other Christian sects feel free to do so and for these groups the debate will last till the end of time each claiming “his” version of scripture as the truth. We just know know how Lutherans and Episcopalians have embraced gay marriage as part of “their” version of the doctrine established by Scripture based on “Love one another.” Nice.
The verse I cited is as completely clear from the linguistics to us as it was to the first century servant of Christ, if one has taken the trouble to explain the meaning and use permitted by Koine. It is not obvious to those who have not the indwelling holy Ghost, IMO. The Scriptures have been open for anyone to see in any age, and not bound by unsustainable human-imposed contrary edicts.
The Biblical stance is that Scripture is the authority in doctrinal matters, and that Scripture interprets itself, not that twisting by those who are inconsistent and undiscipled, according to Peter, and Paul as well (2 Cor. 11:3-5).
I suggest you get your house in order first. It seems to be quite disarrayed at this moment.
So again, we must take “your” interpretation, when it was the early Church fathers who were entrusted with the greatest authority of all, to select the works of Scripture (The very words of God) based on both the written AND oral word, where Scripture itself informs that all that was said was not written.
John 21: 25
“But there are also many other things which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.”
With so many eminent Protestant theologians and scholars jumping ship and crossing over to Catholicism to say nothing of Jewish Rabbbi’s etc, makes those who still cling to Protestant beliefs a laughing stock from snake worshippers to the Joel Osteens. Here is Joel Osteen on VIDEO saying his view of scripture is that Christ is not the only way to salvation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwL1DThtxYg
Please stop with the misuse of John 21:25! Jesus DID many other thing and even the whole world wouldn't contain the books that could be written about His infinite grace, love and mercy. BUT! John also said:
Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. (John 20:30,31)
Funny how you Catholics always seem to miss that passage when you're trying to open a backdoor for your religion to insert anything it wants into the rule of the Christian faith. Odd that all those "really smart people that Poped" didn't get that!
C’mon, stop taking snippets of Scripture and playing theologian here. This personal relationship does not come by simply cracking open the Bible, reading scripture, and having this “personal relationship” you speak of. This is what the corner FourSquare Church pastors preach of. The Rick Warrens, Joel Osteens etc. If this were the case the leading Protestant and Episcopalian theologians would have no need to switch over to Catholicism after extensive study and teaching led them to the truth. The scriptural injunction is clear.
John 6:30 begins a colloquy that took place in the synagogue at Capernaum. The Jews asked Jesus what sign he could perform so that they might believe in him. As a challenge, they noted that “our ancestors ate manna in the desert.” Could Jesus top that? He told them the real bread from heaven comes from the Father. “Give us this bread always,” they said. Jesus replied, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me will never hunger, and whoever believes in me will never thirst.” At this point the Jews understood him to be speaking metaphorically.
But Jesus made it clear what He was speaking about.
And He did so again and again, something He had not done before.
Jesus first repeated what He said, then summarized: “‘I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.’ The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, ‘How can this man give us his flesh to eat?’” (John 6:51–52).
His listeners were stupefied because now they understood Jesus literally—and correctly. He again repeated his words, but with even greater emphasis, and introduced the statement about drinking his blood:
“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him” (John 6:53–56).
So all this “personal relationship” stuff is playing theological Oprah. I f you don’t believe in the Eucharist and not have the Mass as the apex of all sacred worship, everything else is pedestrian street preach- Try Jimmy Swaggart, Rev. Schuller, Billy Graham, Joel Osteen etc. Spend Easter Sunday on the beach, admire the rising sun, sing a few hymns, shout out a few alleluias, hold hands and do a kumbaya, and this passes off for worship and “personal relationship.” This is both lazy Christianity and a farce.
You’ve heard Jesus?
You’ve heard Jesus? Was it after eating a cracker and taking a sip of wine? Did Jesus tell you to castigate, all those, who may have a different experience. Did you see a loving Son of God, or a pious version of yourself?
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