THE ASSUMPTION OF MARY: Condemned as Heretical by 2 Popes in the 5th and 6th Centuries

christiantruth.com ^ | William Webster

[CynicalBear]

>>I do not start off with the assumption it must be in Scripture in order to be true. So I see no reason to find it in Scripture.<<

Of that I have no doubt. It's a common theme with all non Christian religions and aitheism.

[CynicalBear]

>>I see no reason to believe that her other children (no description of how they became her children) can only refer to the 144000 of Rev. 7 as the offspring here.<<

You mean other than John being told they are 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Isreal? But you did just tell us it doesn't have to be in scrioture for it to be true so it shouldn't matter to you anyway. Just go with what makes you feel good.

[CynicalBear]

>>it shows how scholarly and serious minds have spent all their adult lives studying all of scripture and have validate Petrine authority.<<

Ah yes! The lifelong study with perhaps even a PHD! The infamous claims by Muslims, atheists, and all who would purport to know more than some unschooled fisherman.

[CynicalBear]

>>We're talking only about a nickname for a statue.<<

Um, I distinctly remember you calling that "statue" "our lord".

[CynicalBear]

“Thou shalt not do so unto the Lord thy God” means nothing to these people.

[daniel1212]

I do not start off with the assumption it must be in Scripture in order to be true. So I see no reason to find it in Scripture.

Well then you have just joined the ranks of Mormons and cults, and you must expect us to believe the word of who, that there was another transcendent supreme Infallible Authority throughout the history of the people. Was the Jewish magisterium an Infallible Authority?

And why should be believe that Rome is that supreme Infallible Authority if it is not in Scripture?

However, the context clearly was Scripture, as you stated that you looked through a handful of Scripture texts that testify to Scripture being the transcendent supreme standard for obedience and testing and establishing truth claims as the wholly Divinely inspired and assured, Word of God, but did not seen anything that establishes the sole infallible authority of Scripture.

Yet as it uniquely exalts the written word as "perfect, converting the soul" and making wise the simple and "more to be desired are they than gold," etc. (Psalms 19:7,10)

and is what the Lord rebuked the devil by (Mt. 4)

and is what the Lord established His mission by to the disciples and opened up their mind to, (Lk. 24:44,45)

and which transcendent material source alone is stated to be wholly inspired by God,

and which amorphous oral tradition must conform to,

then it alone is the supreme transcendent Infallible Authority (which by nature must have definite form), which even the claimed infallible discerners of amorphous oral tradition (all the words of which are not wholly inspired) must establish their legitimacy by, but cannot.

Nor establish that the truth of any of her claimed oral traditions were not subsequently written, or that Scripture does not formally and materially together provide what is needed for salvation and growth toward perfection (which includes oral preaching of Scriptural truths, and the Spirit's guidance, subject to Scripture).

[mlizzy]

Jesus isn’t your Lord?

[mlizzy]

No assurance?

Sadly, none. Only by my suffering, "her" suffering at the end [it was short, but intense] and the [many] prayers of her friends. She probably had the bestest NCC friend [a very devout Lutheran of impeccable character] in the whole county, if not the planet, and the other, a daily-Mass on-fire "bead-blasting" Catholic.

[mlizzy]

Not following your stream. I must have more coffee. :)

[CynicalBear]

That's the mother Teresa that said this?

"There is only one God and He is God to all; therefore it is important that everyone is seen as equal before God. I've always said we should help a Hindu become a better Hindu, a Muslim become a better Muslim, and a Catholic become a better Catholic." (Agnes Bojaxhiu, quoted by Jean M. Hiesberger, 52 Saints to Pray With, Paulist Press, 2010, p. 81-82)

And this?

"Some call Him Ishwar, some call Him Allah, some simply God, but we have to acknowledge that it is He who made us for greater things: to love and be loved. What matters is that we love. We cannot love without prayer, and so whatever religion we are, we must pray together." (Agnes Bojaxhiu (Mother Teresa), Everything Starts from Prayer, ReadHowYouWant.com, 2010, p. 4)

And this.

"I love all religions... If people become better Hindus, better Muslims, better Buddhists by our acts of love, then there is something else growing there." (Agnus Bojaxhiu, quoted by Karl Keiper, Wayseeker: Making Your Own Faith, self published, 2009, p. 219)

When scripture says this?

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? -2 Corinthians 6:14

That woman spent her entire life promoting Satan's lie that they are all the same god. It didn't matter to her what religion they were.

[CynicalBear]

That chunk of cement or whatever it’s is made of is NOT my Lord.

[MamaB]

That is interesting, You should go at least once for the experience. That way you won’t have any regrets. I learned the hard way to do what we want to. For years my late husband and I talked about taking a train trip through the NW Parks. He died from liver cancer in 06. But, the next year my daughter, her son, daughter and I took that wonderful, wonderful trip. We missed him so much. It is a good thing we took te trip that year because the company closed its doors. It was very odd making the decision. I was at my computer when something told me to make those reservations which I did. I listen to that still, quiet voice. Now, we can remember that trip instead of saying, “I wish we had done that.”. Life is very short.

[MamaB]

Amen. No wonder church leaders/members are in such a mess. I can not believe people actually believe “born again” is not Biblical. Just Wow!! What Bible are they using?

[mlizzy]

For you metmom, along with your fallen-away Catholic friend, boatbums. Do you both remember St. Therese of Lisieux, the 'Little Flower'? Today is her feastday, Oct. 1, and here is a story that fits in with the Assumption thread, and today's Gospel, Mt 18:1-4.

The Greatest in the Kingdom. 1a At that time the disciples* approached Jesus and said, “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” 2 He called a child over, placed it in their midst, 3b and said, “Amen, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children,* you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. 4c Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

From Fr. John A. Hardon:

Devotion of St. Thérèse of Lisieux to the Blessed Virgin Mary — First Conquests of Mary

However, the outstanding convert of Thérèse’s early apostolate was undoubtedly the notorious Pranzini. A criminal who had stained his hands many times with human blood, he still retained some kind of devotion to the Mother of God. Condemned to death by the courts in Paris, he had refused the ministrations of a priest. While awaiting his execution set for the last day of August he asked for permission to hear Mass on the Feast of the Assumption. At this time he declared publicly that even after entering on his life of crime, he seldom failed to stop in a church to greet La Madonna and that in Alexandria, where he was born, he once had the privilege of carrying a banner of the Blessed Virgin in a religious procession. A devoted client of Mary could not be lost. And as the story of the Little Flower informs us, the Blessed Mother inspired St. Thérèse to offer prayers and sacrifices to God for Pranzini’s conversion. “The news,” writes Thérèse, “became daily more discouraging…to the very last hour Pranzini refused to see a priest.” Still she continued hoping that somehow the impossible would happen, pleading with our Lord that, “He is my first sinner, and for this reason I ask You to give me a sign of his repentance, simply for my consolation…I am sure that You will pardon this unfortunate Pranzini.” (Autobiography, 73.)

And there was a sign, as detailed by the newspapers. “On the morning of August 31, Pranzini had already climbed the guillotine…Then, seized by a sudden inspiration, he swiftly turned around and cried out, ‘M. Curé’, give me your crucifix, quick!’ He added only one more word, ‘I have sinned!’ And the priest cried back, ‘I absolve you.’ A moment later, his head rolled off the guillotine into the dust.” (Roschini, 210)

[mlizzy]

That chunk of cement or whatever it’s is made of is NOT my Lord.

Yes, I'm aware of that!

[dsc]

“Thus; my success here...”

Your admission is less gratifying than ironic.

[MamaB]

And how small Jesus is. That is awful.

[dsc]

” 27. “First let the children eat all they want,” he told her, “for it is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to their dogs.”

My, my, another mistranslation.

The Jews called everybody who wasn’t a Jew a “dog,” just like modern-day Japanese call everyone who isn’t Japanese a “gaijin” and Chinese call everyone who isn’t Chinese a “gwailoh.”

He meant “dogs,” as in somebody not a Jew, not “their dogs,” as in dogs belonging to the children. That is just wrong.

[CynicalBear]

>>Yes, I'm aware of that!<<

Yet you referred to that chunk of cement as your lord.

[mlizzy]

I'm aware he's not YOUR Lord. He represents mine, The Sacred Heart of Jesus, very well, albeit he's a bit scuffed up from a fall or two.