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To: daniel1212
While Luther could be wrong in some other things, if Luther was wrong in these two cardinal Truths then it would indeed be fatal to all who believe them, but which would invalidate the NT church itself.

Do you and your assembly agree with the Catholics and Lutherans concerning the baptism of infants ? Infant Baptism

Infant baptism[1][2] is the practice of baptising infants or young children. In theological discussions, the practice is sometimes referred to as paedobaptism or pedobaptism from the Greek pais meaning "child". The practice is sometimes contrasted with what is called "believer's baptism", or credobaptism, from the Latin word credo meaning "I believe", which is the religious practice of baptising only individuals who personally confess faith in Jesus, therefore excluding underage children. Infant baptism is also called christening by some faith traditions.

Most Christians belong to denominations that practise infant baptism.[3] Denominational families that practise infant baptism include Catholics, Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, Anglicans, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Methodists, some Nazarenes,[4] the United Church of Christ (UCC), Moravian Church, Metropolitan Community Church, Wesleyans, Episcopalians, and Reformed churches.

This may explain why Luther thought the Anabaptists had to die; not to mention throwing Baptists and Evangelicals under the bus today; baptizing or not baptizing infants was a matter of heresy. The Augsburg Confession of 1530 is an early Lutheran confession of faith, authored mainly by Philip Melancthon and approved by Martin Luther and presented to King Charles V. In Article IX, “Of baptism,” it says: Of baptism [the churches with common consent among us] teach that it is necessary to salvation, and that by Baptism the grace of God is offered, and that children are to be baptized, who by Baptism, being offered to God, are received into God’s favor. They condemn the Anabaptists who allow not the Baptism of children, and affirm that children are saved without Baptism. (Creeds of Christendom, Vol. 3, p. 13)

2,996 posted on 10/22/2014 9:32:06 AM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began.)
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To: af_vet_1981

Why are you so obsessed with carnal leadership? It absolutely cult like.


3,011 posted on 10/22/2014 9:57:56 AM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: af_vet_1981
Do you and your assembly agree with the Catholics and Lutherans concerning the baptism of infants

No, as the requirements for baptism is that of wholehearted repentant faith, (Acts 3:28; 8:36,37) and it is incongruous that an act of such cardinal importance by the Holy Spirit would provide even one clear example of infants being baptized, and it can only be speculated that whole household baptisms included children so young as to not be able to discern their need for forgiveness by faith in the Lord Jesus.

And circumcision has limited correspondence, and covenantal distinctions that do not equate to baptizing infants when they cannot believe, as personal belief is always in conversion.

However, there is a difference in baptizing an infant in holding that this makes them a partaker of the covenant, as some hold, versus imagining that this makes them regenerate and justified by inherent holinesss. And which regeneration is not empirically manifest as in Scripture and evangelical conversion, but basically it overall makes a mockery of Scriptural regeneration.

But it is your practice to go after side issues, while ignoring the main one. You went on at length justifying the right to execute men by spiritual means, when the issue was that of the use of the sword of men, and finally you were forced to give a clear rejection of the use of the latter by the church. But at least you did, which is more than some others would so.

And then you once again indicted Luther as being against the Jews, ignoring the precedent your own church provided, by popes no less, not a reformers, though you had been shown this in response to past one-sided indictments.

And here you want to focus in Prot. paedobaptism, while the issue was the RC preoccupation with Luther, and Rome's assured veracity and baptismal justification by ones own inherent holiness, thus leading to purgatory.

3,013 posted on 10/22/2014 10:07:18 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: af_vet_1981
But where is the historical perspective RCs demand in seeking to engage in damage control for the Inquisitions, and in this case the Jews overall had evidently made themselves rather unlovable, as i suspect they were in 1930's Germany, yet which does not excuse the treatment that Luther and popes and other Catholics advocated. [bold emphasis mine]

It seems to me you are blaming the Jews themselves for being unlovable by declining to convert or simply disappear, including the Jews in the Holocaust, which I suppose is the same view you would apply to the Waldensian Protestants, that they made themselves unlovable as well. I find this troubling, a blaming if the victim if you will.

A German woman and her daughter in dresses walked by a concentration camp fence, perhaps on their way to church. The little girl saw all the gaunt men standing near the wire. "Mommy, who are those people ?, asked the little girl. "Those are not people. Those are Jews" the mother answered. True story; sounds hauntingly better in the German in which it was said. I suppose those Jews were unloved, and the mother did not fulfill the positives of Matthew 25. God help us to fulfill Matthew 25 as sheep and not goats.

3,076 posted on 10/22/2014 1:45:50 PM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began.)
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