“God is not a magician, with a magic wand”: Pope Francis schools creationists (Salon)

Salon ^ | 10/28/14 | Sarah Gray

[Faith Presses On]

In an exciting declaration, Pope Francis I stated that God should not seen as a “magician with a magic wand,” while unveiling a statue of his predecessor Pope Benedict XVI at the Pontifical Academy of Sciences. Pope Francis also stated that evolution and the Big Bang theory are both true and not incompatible with the church’s views on the origins of the universe and life.

“When we read about Creation in Genesis, we run the risk of imagining God was a magician, with a magic wand able to do everything. But that is not so,” Francis said, according to the Independent. Francis continued by stating that God “created human beings and let them develop according to the internal laws that he gave to each one so they would reach their fulfillment.”

[freedumb2003]

>The person who refuses to join the Catholic Church because it teaches evolution is not making a mistaken assumption but sincerely in disagreement with what is apparently a fundamental belief of the Catholic Church.
<<

Most people who decry TToE either don’t understand the process or dislike the conclusion.

I hope you are not in either of these categories.

[freedumb2003]

>>Pope Francis also stated that evolution and the Big Bang theory are both true
Where exactly did he say that? <<

I think if we pressed him, he would say Penny should NOT have cut her hair :)

[Zionist Conspirator]

Most people who decry TToE either don’t understand the process or dislike the conclusion.

I hope you are not in either of these categories.

Why? Why does it matter to you whether or not I or any other layman believe in evolution? You sound worse than any "Bible-thumper."

I am in the category of people who believe all the events described in the Holy Torah, from beginning to end, actually happened. Any philosophy whatsoever that turns any part of the Torah into a pedagogic Aesop's fable or fairy tale is evil. Period.

[MeshugeMikey]

well there are those “negatives” yes.

God cant force Pope Frankie to truly submit to his total authority.

[TIElniff]

Dear Pope:

1. Were Adam and Eve real people? Where did they come from, as real, individual people with a free will? How did the “big bang” produce Adam and Eve as original, innocent, human beings?

2. If not, how do you account for the beginnings of sin and total depravity?

3. And how do you account for the genealogy of Christ? Is there a Messianic line of descent from the “old Adam” to the “new Adam”?

4. When you lose Adam and Eve, you lose the gospel as a result.

5. It’s a shame I have to school you on this matter. You need to check your premises and reasoning.

[freedumb2003]

>>Why? Why does it matter to you whether or not I or any other layman believe in evolution? You sound worse than any “Bible-thumper.”<<

One does not “believe” in science — one “understands” it (and let me quickly dismiss AGW which meets exactly zero criteria to be a Scientific Theory).

I always want the best for my fellow FReepers and thus desire that you are on the side of both science and theology.

>>I am in the category of people who believe all the events described in the Holy Torah, from beginning to end, actually happened. Any philosophy whatsoever that turns any part of the Torah into a pedagogic Aesop’s fable or fairy tale is evil. Period.<<

And TToE (or abiogenesis) does not refute your “category.” I am sure that the Pope’s dicta does not reduce faith to “Aesop’s fable(s).” Rather, he explains that science MUST embrace God as a factual/physical entity.

And his logic is pretty spot on and (properly) sweeps aside Dembski and his ilk.

[goodwithagun]

It was not an impulse, but a rather long journey; however, your post is a perfect example of what I wrote. FR’s rabid Protestants are poor recruiters for the faith.

[Zionist Conspirator]

I always want the best for my fellow FReepers and thus desire that you are on the side of both science and theology.

As Mrs. Brisby said to Jeremy, "If you really wanted to help me, you'd go away."

I have already pointed out the inconsistencies in your position a couple posts back--and I notice you've never responded to a single point I made.

Science has no competence to teach us about creation, since creation happened prior to the existence of even the first natural physical law. Only revelation and theology can tell us about it.

I don't see what keeps you out of the Catholic Church. You fit right in.

[verga]

My apologies I thought you might actually be interested in a serious discussion.

[BipolarBob]

Love your tagline.

[freedumb2003]

>>I have already pointed out the inconsistencies in your position a couple posts back—and I notice you’ve never responded to a single point I made.<<

If I missed them I apologize — but have made it clear I won’t be doing TToE on this thread given some bad stuff that happened in the old Crevo wars days.

But the RM has indicated it might be OK so please link me to your “inconsistencies” so I can have a little fun at your expense.

With all due reverence and respect, of course.

[wagglebee]

This post got me thinking.

There are quite a few anti-Catholic FReepers who CLAIM to have been raised Catholic, though many of their tales are so full of demonstrable falsehoods and and inconsistencies that it makes one wonder if they are even Christians in any sense of the word.

But goodwithagun's post made me wonder, does anyone know of even a single VERIFIABLE instance where a Catholic FReeper was somehow "converted" by the anti-Catholics that they left the Church? And by verifiable I mean someone who was a "known" Catholic FReeper that has now become an anti-Catholic.

[xzins]

Francis continued by stating that God “created human beings and let them develop according to the internal laws that he gave to each one so they would reach their fulfillment.”

This is what is known as an assumption or opinion and not a fact.

[wagglebee]

Trust me, I'm not on this thread to defend Pope Francis.

[verga]

To bad you wrote it incorrectly.

[xzins]

It’s possible to build a view on assumptions and opinions. It’s helps if the assumptions end up being correct, but more often than not there are missteps along the way.

I don’t know a freeper who became a Catholic, but I have an old pastor buddy, strong fighting evangelical United Methodist from the Chicago area who was smacked down by Jospeph “the Heretic” Sprague time and again.

He looked over the landscape and didn’t like what evangelicalism had become, so he became a Byzantine Catholic (which I think is united in some fashion with Roman Catholicism.)

[rwilson99]

Exactly... this is not an exclusively Catholic view... Well regarded Jewish scholars and Evangelical scholars agree as well.

[freedumb2003]

>>But goodwithagun’s post made me wonder, does anyone know of even a single VERIFIABLE instance where a Catholic FReeper was somehow “converted” by the anti-Catholics that they left the Church? And by verifiable I mean someone who was a “known” Catholic FReeper that has now become an anti-Catholic.<<

My sister sort of ended up there. I think the “anti-Catholics” (ok, RCC bashers) usually result from a significant life decision totally at odds with RCC doctrine.

As I said, my break was from structure. But if a gay person (perfectly acceptable in RCC) acts on that “feeling” (not OK under RCC) then it is a clear sin like acting on any other aberration.

I don’t know of any FReeper in this situation but it explains (doesn’t exonerate) such feelings.

As for the “buffet line” “Christians” (yes, quotes on purpose) who bash the RCC — “methinks the lady doth protest too much.”

[NYer]

I am sort of walking that same road (to Demascus?)

Perhaps you are referring to Emmaus?

Luke 24:13-35

“Were not our hearts burning [within us] while he spoke to us on the way and opened the scriptures to us?”

My separation from the RCC is structural: the God who loves me so much doesn’t want a lot of intervening ritual.

Yes, I understand. 10 years ago, I found myself in a confrontational situation with the pastor of my (then) parish. Driving to Sunday mass was usually accompanied by a knot in my stomach. I am not confrontational by nature but could not remain silent when there was liturgical abuse. I won the first battle and moved on to the second. While kneeling after taking communion, I happened to look up just as a EMHC dropped a consecrated host on the sanctuary floor. It was the straw that broke the proverbial camel's back. I bowed my head in prayer and asked our Lord to guide me to "a holy priest, a reverent liturgy and a community in need of whatever my God-given abilities might be". Back home, I compiled a list of other parishes within a certain radius of home. A freeper friend suggested I include any Eastern Catholic parishes as well. Over the next few weeks, I attended mass at a different parish each week, always repeating that prayer. On a chilly March Sunday, I drove to one of the Eastern (Maronite) Catholic churches. The liturgy and prayers engulfed me, elevating my mind and heart to God. Like the disciples on the road to Emmaus, my "heart burned inside me". I wasted no time in researching the origin of this liturgy only to discover that it dates back to when St. Peter served as bishop of Antioch, before he went to Rome. IOW, it is one of the most ancient liturgies. The words of consecration are chanted in Aramaic, the language of Christ, Mary and the Apostles. Its "rituals" have been traced back to the earliest days of christianity when the first converts were Jews. To cite an example, during the consecration of the cup, the priest tips it in the 4 directions of the earth to indicate that Christ shed His blood for all mankind. This action was carried over from the synagogue service where the blood of the lamb was sprinkled on the 4 corners of the altar. In the Middle East, the earliest churches were former synagogues where the entire congregation had been converted to christianity.

I do in my heart of hearts understand that Jesus named (and frankly with some humor) Peter as His first Pope.

There is ample evidence in the New Testament that Peter was first in authority among the apostles. Whenever they were named, Peter headed the list (Matt. 10:1-4, Mark 3:16-19, Luke 6:14-16, Acts 1:13); sometimes the apostles were referred to as "Peter and those who were with him" (Luke 9:32). Peter was the one who generally spoke for the apostles (Matt. 18:21, Mark 8:29, Luke 12:41, John 6:68-69), and he figured in many of the most dramatic scenes (Matt. 14:28-32, Matt. 17:24-27, Mark 10:23-28). On Pentecost it was Peter who first preached to the crowds (Acts 2:14-40), and he worked the first healing in the Church age (Acts 3:6-7). It is Peter’s faith that will strengthen his brethren (Luke 22:32) and Peter is given Christ’s flock to shepherd (John 21:17). An angel was sent to announce the resurrection to Peter (Mark 16:7), and the risen Christ first appeared to Peter (Luke 24:34). He headed the meeting that elected Matthias to replace Judas (Acts 1:13-26), and he received the first converts (Acts 2:41). He inflicted the first punishment (Acts 5:1-11), and excommunicated the first heretic (Acts 8:18-23). He led the first council in Jerusalem (Acts 15), and announced the first dogmatic decision (Acts 15:7-11). It was to Peter that the revelation came that Gentiles were to be baptized and accepted as Christians (Acts 10:46-48). Read More.

We know our actions cannot get us into heaven. But by our actions do we influence others and demonstrates our faith.

Absolutely right. However, there is one action you can take that will ensure others, even total strangers, will receive the graces necessary for their salvation. PRAYER!

Many years ago, someone asked me to pray for them, and I did. Since then, countless individuals have asked for prayers. Not one has ever returned to ask me to remove them from my daily prayer list. It brings great comfort and joy to my heart when I offer up prayers every day for these nameless individuals. They are known to God. That list has expanded over time to include: those contemplating abortion and/or suicide; accident victims in emergency rooms and those attending to them, the pope, bishops, priests and all who serve in the Church. On certain occasions, while waiting in line at the supermarket or riding on a train, that I prayed for those around me. You cannot buy prayer; hence it is a precious gift that we can share with others. I have taken the liberty of adding you and your wife to my daily prayer list. May our Lord guide you on your journey. Feel free to freepmail me should you wish to discuss faith matters more in depth.

[freedumb2003]

Thank you for sharing your story — with me and the community.

This thread is actually leading me back to some degree. My previously ossified theology is starting to soften.

Not there but walking there. To the point where I will find my local parish and have a chat with the priest.

Because I cannot find an argument against my own posts!! (ironic lol there).