Posted on 12/02/2014 10:17:30 AM PST by pastorbillrandles
And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.(Revelation 12:1-5)
Who is the mysterious woman, writhing in agony of birth, seen in the vision of the apostle John in Revelation 12?
We have shown that on one level this woman represents the true people of God, the faithful congregation, those who truly worship God, and wait for his full deliverance. But there is a more specific meaning to the Image of the woman in the vision.
Some have speculated that the woman is Eve. We have remarked upon the connection between this chapter and Genesis chapter 3. In Genesis three we see Eve,(Adam also, but he was passive), in a dialogue with the serpent. Eventually she succumbs to the flattery and seduction of the serpent’s lie, and defects from God, with her husband. She is told that she will bring forth a son who would bring salvation, “the seed of the woman”.
Others speculate that the woman represents the virgin Mary, the counterpart to the disobedient Eve. Mary said “Yes” to God even though it meant saying no to herself. But Eve did the opposite. The Roman Catholic Church I was brought up in, featured a large statue of the virgin Mary standing upon a globe. She was crowned with 12 stars and under her feet was the serpent. The blasphemous teaching of this statue was clear, Mary defeated the Devil and set men free. This is none less than a distortion of the original Gospel as proclaimed in Genesis 3,
And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.(Genesis 3:14-15)
The European Union has selected for its flag the 12 starred, so-called “Crown of Mary” based on this mis-interpretation of Revelation 12.
Both of these possible answers for the identity of the woman miss the mark. There is no reason other than speculation, to see either Eve or Mary in this woman.
Fortunately there is a specific answer as to the identity of the woman. The book of Genesis offers the key, in the story of the visions of Joseph.
And Joseph dreamed a dream, and he told it his brethren: and they hated him yet the more. And he said unto them, Hear, I pray you, this dream which I have dreamed: For, behold, we were binding sheaves in the field, and, lo, my sheaf arose, and also stood upright; and, behold, your sheaves stood round about, and made obeisance to my sheaf. And his brethren said to him, Shalt thou indeed reign over us? or shalt thou indeed have dominion over us? And they hated him yet the more for his dreams, and for his words. And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me. And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?(Genesis 37:5-10)
The woman is clothed in the Sun,Moon and the stars. The dream of Joseph represent the Sun,Moon and Stars as Jacob,Leah, and the twelves sons of Israel. Therefore the Woman is Israel. She is the specific ‘woman’ which the serpent hates and has often tried to destroy. Her seed, the Messiah defeated the Serpent in battle, and it is He that shall soon come to “Rule all nations with a Rod of Iron”.
Israel is a miracle. The beginning of Israel was a miracle, for God wanted to create a new nation, after the nations of the world defected from him in the “Babel” incident. Rather than select a healthy, virile “twenty something” couple to begin a new nation, God chose Abram and Sara, a barren married couple, long past child-bearing age!
Israel’s continued existence is a miracle, for long have the nations of the world sought to destroy her. She was dispersed from her land in 70 ad, and spread from one end of the earth to the other, living in exile for two thousand years.
Of course military defeat, dispersion and enslavement has happened to other nations in history. But the great modern miracle of Israel is that after 2000 years the nation was reconstituted, in May,1948 ad. The rebirth of Israel is a billboard sign to the world that these are the end times, and that there is a living God.
Hear the word of the Lord, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock. For the Lord hath redeemed Jacob, and ransomed him from the hand of him that was stronger than he.(Jeremiah 31:10-11)
For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim: Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the Lord their God, and David their king; and shall fear the Lord and his goodness in the latter days.(Hosea 3:4-5)
“The blasphemous teaching of this statue was clear, Mary defeated the Devil and set men free.”
That’s pretty ignorant assertion.
“This is none less than a distortion of the original Gospel as proclaimed in Genesis 3...”
This is one of the major reasons I am forced to scoff at Catholic claims that only their magisterium can interpret Scripture. After all, if they get such a simple point completely wrong in their interpretation, then they clearly are not being safeguarded from error as they claim.
It’s hard to believe, because the Church has been taught to disavow astrology, but the woman is Virgo. It’s astrological in nature, the entire passage. You can look at computerized maps and find the dates for when these happen. Pretty exciting, actually.
Amen and amen. Israel is the nation of God. Those who hate Israel hate the Living God.
Do you have some links that you would suggest?
Larry why don’t we discuss this without using words like “Ignorant”? As A matter of fact It is not ignorant to see in a statue of the Virgin, crushing Satan under her foot, a distortion of the real gospel, which says the “Seed of the woman” shall crush the serpent’s head. Jesus defeated Satan, not Mary.
LOL!
“blasphemous teaching”
You get to make outrageous claims against the Catholic Church, yet I’m not allowed to call the claim “ignorant”!?!?!?
All due respect. Obviously in your passage you highlighted scripture where Joseph declares “ Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me. “ Did this happen to Joseph himself? Huh no. But scripture has him representing Israel/Jesus. Yes?
Now if you can believe this it is not too hard you can also believe the woman who had the baby is Israel/ Mary . Mary is the first woman of the New Testament as Israel as coming out of Old Testament covenant . So Mary is Israel as in represented by having a baby who is the messiah. It is not hard for this believer. She is really the first believer and mother of the real messiah. The mother of all offspring of the new spirituality of the new covenant.
I think noncatholics sometimes have an aversion to things because oh my it sounds too “ Catholic.” The scriptures uses the same metaphor with a single individual in Joseph then why not in Mary? Who really is the mother of us the new spirituality/covenant from the old covenant since having Christ? Yes?
“Do you have some links that you would suggest?”
Hopefully this link works. It’s a beautiful presentation a little over 20 minutes long. Prepare to have your socks blown off!
“Do you have some links that you would suggest?”
Hopefully this link works. It’s a beautiful presentation a little over 20 minutes long. Prepare to have your socks blown off!
Well that went well :(
Try this?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViuNs6LL8Lk
Sep 27, 2013 - 19 min - Uploaded by kingdomwithinu
Rev 12 has clearly come to pass. Now translate Revelation 13 with Daniel’s chapters 2 and ...
Ah me, your patience is laudable. I won't why there are so many people who...oh, never mind, you get my drift.
I've said it before: we Catholics venerate venerate Mary and the saints and we ADORE God. WHAT is so difficult to understand in that statement? If I "get it" everyone else on this site can do likewise. True?
I even brought in the definitions of "venerate" and "adore" to highlight the difference. Oh well.
Yes blasphemous. Any distortion of the true gospel is extremely dangerous. I mean no insult, I only related what I saw as a child in a Catholic sanctuary.To represent Mary as being the Serpent crushing “Seed of the woman”, rather than JEsus Christ, is to distort the gospel.
Thanks Cloud. If by venerate you mean you respect Mary as a very important person in the gospel and as a model Christian, I would have to say that I venerate her on the same level.
However if you in any way rely on her, “Now and at the hour of your death” for salvation, or if you give her credit as being the Serpent crushing “Seed of the woman”, then that would be a problem. I do “get” the difference between respect and outright worship.
Thanks John, I appreciate the analogy and have to think about it. I do agree that Mary is part of Israel, and also one of the first believers in the New Testament sense. BTW the dream of Joseph does reveal what would happen to Him personally in the future, as well as what would happen to Christ, all Israel will bow down to Him.
2. However if you in any way rely on her, “Now and at the hour of your death” for salvation, or if you give her credit as being the Serpent crushing “Seed of the woman”, then that would be a problem. I do “get” the difference between respect and outright worship.
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1. Yes, I do mean VENERATE: regard with great respect; revere.
2. I DO not rely on anyone but God for salvation. I worship and adore God.
I ask Mary: Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.
Also, we often ask others to pray for us. It's especially nice when someone is going into the hospital for a serious operation.
3. I do “get” the difference between respect and outright worship.
OF COURSE you do.
Actually, calling that interpretation “ignorant” is quite accurate.
So you believe that the gospel is that the virgin Mary crushed the serpent’s head and that the serpent bruised(His) Her heel? We are going to have to agree to disagree on that my friend...
I am all for asking people to pray for us, I do so frequently, but never do I try to communicate that way with those who have passed on before us. As for the hour of my death, All reliance and hope is put upon Jesus the Savour and LORD. Thanks for the discussion Cloud ,I appreciate your friendly tone.
AMEN.
Thanks for the discussion Cloud ,I appreciate your friendly tone.
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Always a pleasure. It's been my experience that men of the cloth are scholarly and informed. It's nice to talk with them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdYDKmpzt5U#t=20
You might enjoy this. Do turn up the sound. :o)
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