Is Prayer/Veneration/Worship to Mary Biblical?

self | 12-14-14 | ealgeone

[ealgeone]

The reason for this article is to determine if the worship/veneration given to Mary by the catholic church is justified from a Biblical perspective. This will be evaluated using the Biblical standard and not man’s standard.

[verga]

Got it, prots making things up again based purely on emotion and no intellect. Opinions and interpretations from the ignorant mean nothing.

Do you go to doctors that don't have degrees, Lawyers that have not passed the bar, yet you all are content to trust your eternal destination on your gut feelings.

[verga]

Excellent use of the straw man argument to talk smack.

[verga]

And yet another straw man argument.

[Syncro]

Could be.

It seems the more distractions to icons the better.

I dunno why.

[Syncro]

Thanks for bringing the attention to those posts.

The Truth burns out the straw and then you only have the man.

Something’s fishy here.

[Syncro]

Got it, prots making things up again based purely on emotion and no intellect.

John 16:13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

1 John 2:27 As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.

What "prots" made up those scriptures about the Holy Spirit?

Fits here: Opinions and interpretations from the ignorant mean nothing

[caww]

These two photo's are interesting and speak volumes really...for you have the catholic mary with this monstrance ...the pope with his jesuit emblem on his cloak, and the emblem of the thorns surrouding the images head....note the half mood she rests on

This image is called "The 'Monstrance' of Our Lady of the Sign, Ark of Mercy".....catholics Mary hovers over the Ark of the Covenant, note the angels kneeling to her with their wings protecting her...The image, to catholics, that Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant and that, because of their assertion that she "contained the uncontainable God," she was herself the first monstrance.

[boatbums]

We are justified by faith and works. Not by works alone and not by faith alone.

What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

“Blessed are those whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never count against them.” (Romans 4:3-8)

[caww]

Here we have a bone of a corpse inside a Monstrance.....The Roman Catholics bow down before this bone of supposedly Francis Xavier, and pray....they have many such relics displayed and shared among the various churches

[boatbums]

"They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death in the midst of their disputes. " --St. Ignatius (110 A.D.)

Okay...you DO know that who Ignatius was referring to as "they" was the Gnostics who denied Jesus HAD a flesh and blood body, right? Seeing as the RC dogma of "transubstantiation" didn't even become "official" RC dogma until the Fourth Council of the Lateran, which convened beginning November 11, 1215, you can hardly claim honestly that the "Protestants" were who Ignatius was talking about!

[Mrs. Don-o]

But you've got to get some way to harmonize the 14 points and 25 Bible citations listed here, all of which are equally authoritative, and all of which directly address the questions "What must I do to gain eternal life?", "How am I to be saved?"

Your method seem to be to explain "by faith," andexplain away everything else.

This method --- "explaining away" ---is not a careful use of context.

The bottom line is that we are to be conformed to Christ, incorporated into Christ. Every item on that list of 14 Biblical points, and all of them together, point to that. Here's Paul's description of it: "I live; yet not 'I', but Christ lives in me."

If that's really what you mean by "a living faith," then we're on the same page. If, on the other hand, you mean just some kind of intellectual notional, possibly coupled with a verbal formula, you're going to have to fully deal with James' teaching that there's a difference between a "living" faith and a "dead" faith, and you can't be saved by a dead faith.

Nor can you play Paul against James on this one. Paul himself says, "if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing." (1 Cor.13:2)

[Mrs. Don-o]

"Sounds like they may have cribbed that list from one of the more fundamentally sound Baptist or Pentecostal preachers."

Thanks for that! I mean that sincerely. I see it was meant as a compliment --- I think...

But it did raise a smile. It's like you're saying, "That's sound Catholic teaching there. But how an that be?! (Think, think, think.) OH! The Catholics must have stolen that from the Baptists..."

:o)

[Mrs. Don-o]

That’s the way I roll. :o)

[Syncro]

Oh my gosh not another rabbit hole!

[Mrs. Don-o]

Actually, it's not adoring the Blessed Virgin Mary, it's honoring her. And that's addressed by another Commandment, a column-inch down the page: "Honor thy father and thy mother."

And by Mary's own prophetic declaration: "All generations will call me blessed."

A true prophecy of Christians through the centuries.

[boatbums]

Got it, prots making things up again based purely on emotion and no intellect. Opinions and interpretations from the ignorant mean nothing. Do you go to doctors that don't have degrees, Lawyers that have not passed the bar, yet you all are content to trust your eternal destination on your gut feelings.

Do you think it's ONLY Roman Catholics who possess advanced theological degrees? Expertise in ancient Greek and Hebrew? Biblical knowledge? Capable of deep intellectual thinking and proper formation of opinions and interpretation? One of your own used to boast regularly that all the really "smart" Protestants convert to Roman Catholicism. Is this what you think, too?

If people are really smart - the kind that earnestly seek the truth - they know that salvation depends upon Jesus Christ and not the gut feelings of elitist snobs who presume they know everything about everything and everyone.

[ealgeone]

More on this blasphemous structure....btw...it's a nine foot hand carved idol.

The iconic monstrance, Our Lady of the Sign – Ark of Mercy, was unveiled and blessed by Cardinal Francis George, May 31, 2008, on the Feast of the Visitation. The idea of the iconic monstrance was conceived nine years prior to its unveiling. At that time a call was heard which resulted in the entrustment and consecration of the parish of St. Stanislaus Kostka to the Blessed Virgin Mary. A discernment led by Fr. Anthony Bus C.R. inspired a parish wide response to establish in the heart of Chicago, a Sanctuary to The Divine Mercy. The doors of the parish were opened and eyes were turned to Mary, Holy Queen and Mother of Mercy, that the “cacophony of the world not shout into silence the voice of the living God.” It was accepted that the Blessed Virgin Mary had asked for and created space for sacred silence that the voice of her Son would be heard anew and that He would be adored in the Blessed Sacrament. http://www.sanctuaryofthedivinemercy.org/Our-Lady-of-the-Sign/Our-Lady-of-the-Sign-Ark-of-Mercy-12.html

In an interview last week with thedivinemercy.org, Fr. Anthony recalled how in 1999, while his parish was experiencing deep financial difficulties, he decided to make a consecration of his life to Our Lady. During preparation for the consecration, he felt a "strong pull to Our Lady."

"I heard Our Lady say in a very distinct way, 'Make me Mother and Queen of the parish,'" he recalled. "It was at that point, I consecrated the parish to Our Lady, and then it became very, very clear — an interior intuition or sense or detailed call — that she was asking for a sanctuary for The Divine Mercy, and that was being confirmed right and left, all over the place. We went into the Jubilee Year, and we just had confirmation after confirmation." http://thedivinemercy.org/news/story.php?NID=3184

So much for needing Jesus for anything.

This is blasphemy, apostasy, and whatever else you can think of.

[af_vet_1981]

We are not saved by works; but if there be no works, there must be something amiss with faith.” Luther says, “Accordingly, if good works do not follow, it is certain that this faith in Christ does not dwell in our heart, but dead faith…”

You have appealed to Martin Luther, the father of Sola Fide. This is further evidence the doctrine you advocate is erroneous.
1. Luther signed death warrants for the Anabaptists. Erroll Hulse writes: "Luther hardened more in his attitude toward the left wing. By March 1530 he gave his consent to the death penalty for Anabaptists. This was further confirmed in 1536, when he signed a document clearly stating that the Anabaptists were to be put to death, not because their program entailed a complete re-orientation of church, state and society.
2. First to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians. For whatever we tolerated in the past unknowingly ­ and I myself was unaware of it ­ will be pardoned by God. But if we, now that we are informed, were to protect and shield such a house for the Jews, existing right before our very nose, in which they lie about, blaspheme, curse, vilify, and defame Christ and us (as was heard above), it would be the same as if we were doing all this and even worse ourselves, as we very well know.
   
   Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. For they pursue in them the same aims as in their synagogues. Instead they might be lodged under a roof or in a barn, like the gypsies. This will bring home to them that they are not masters in our country, as they boast, but that they are living in exile and in captivity, as they incessantly wail and lament about us before God.
   
   Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them. (remainder omitted)
   
   Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb. For they have justly forfeited the right to such an office by holding the poor Jews captive with the saying of Moses (Deuteronomy 17 [:10 ff.]) in which he commands them to obey their teachers on penalty of death, although Moses clearly adds: "what they teach you in accord with the law of the Lord." Those villains ignore that. They wantonly employ the poor people's obedience contrary to the law of the Lord and infuse them with this poison, cursing, and blasphemy. In the same way the pope also held us captive with the declaration in Matthew 16 {:18], "You are Peter," etc, inducing us to believe all the lies and deceptions that issued from his devilish mind. He did not teach in accord with the word of God, and therefore he forfeited the right to teach.
   
   Fifth, I advise that safe­conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. For they have no business in the countryside, since they are not lords, officials, tradesmen, or the like. Let they stay at home. (...remainder omitted).
   
   Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them and put aside for safekeeping. The reason for such a measure is that, as said above, they have no other means of earning a livelihood than usury, and by it they have stolen and robbed from us all they possess. Such money should now be used in no other way than the following: Whenever a Jew is sincerely converted, he should be handed one hundred, two hundred, or three hundred florins, as personal circumstances may suggest. With this he could set himself up in some occupation for the support of his poor wife and children, and the maintenance of the old or feeble. For such evil gains are cursed if they are not put to use with God's blessing in a good and worthy cause.
   
   Seventh, I commend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow, as was imposed on the children of Adam (Gen 3[:19]}. For it is not fitting that they should let us accursed Goyim toil in the sweat of our faces while they, the holy people, idle away their time behind the stove, feasting and farting, and on top of all, boasting blasphemously of their lordship over the Christians by means of our sweat. No, one should toss out these lazy rogues by the seat of their pants.
   
   * * *
   
   But what will happen even if we do burn down the Jews' synagogues and forbid them publicly to praise God, to pray, to teach, to utter God's name? They will still keep doing it in secret. If we know that they are doing this in secret, it is the same as if they were doing it publicly. for our knowledge of their secret doings and our toleration of them implies that they are not secret after all and thus our conscience is encumbered with it before God.
   
   * * *
   
   Accordingly, it must and dare not be considered a trifling matter but a most serious one to seek counsel against this and to save our souls from the Jews, that is, from the devil and from eternal death. My advice, as I said earlier, is:
   
   First, that their synagogues be burned down, and that all who are able toss in sulphur and pitch; it would be good if someone could also throw in some hellfire. That would demonstrate to God our serious resolve and be evidence to all the world that it was in ignorance that we tolerated such houses, in which the Jews have reviled God, our dear Creator and Father, and his Son most shamefully up till now but that we have now given them their due reward.
   
   * * *
   
   I wish and I ask that our rulers who have Jewish subjects exercise a sharp mercy toward these wretched people, as suggested above, to see whether this might not help (though it is doubtful). They must act like a good physician who, when gangrene has set in, proceeds without mercy to cut, saw, and burn flesh, veins, bone, and marrow. Such a procedure must also be followed in this instance. Burn down their synagogues, forbid all that I enumerated earlier, force them to work, and deal harshly with them, as Moses did in the wilderness, slaying three thousand lest the whole people perish. They surely do not know what they are doing; moreover, as people possessed, they do not wish to know it, hear it, or learn it. There it would be wrong to be merciful and confirm them in their conduct. If this does not help we must drive them out like mad dogs, so that we do not become partakers of their abominable blasphemy and all their other vices and thus merit God's wrath and be damned with them. I have done my duty. Now let everyone see to his. I am exonerated. "
3. Dear Katie, I was weak on the road to Eisleben, but that was my own fault. Had you been with me you would have said it was the fault of the Jews or of their God. For we had to pass through a village hard by Eisleben where many Jews live; perhaps they blew on me too hard. (In the city of Eisleben there are at this hour fifty Jewish residents.) As I drove through the village such a cold wind blew from behind through my cap on my head that it was like to turn my brain to ice. This may have helped my vertigo, but now, thank God, I am so well that I am sore tempted by fair women and care not how gallant I am. When the chief matters are settled, I must devote myself to driving out the Jews. Count Albert is hostile to them, and has given them their deserts, but no one else has. God willing, I will help Count Albert from the pulpit.

[Syncro]

“Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

“Blessed are those whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never count against them.” (Romans 4:3-8) [Hat tip to boatbums]

What fits for Abraham, fits for Christians.

Catholics may do works for salvation, but plain everyday born again Christians will do works, but not for salvation. We only need to be saved once, and it's forever. Jesus said so.

[Mrs. Don-o]

You're very, very, very close to the point here. In fact, you might be right on the money. You'll notice that I said,

"If that is what you mean by "Faith," then yes, it's by Faith. And all of these elements comprise this Faith in its fullest definition."

All these points comprise being "incorporated into Christ." If that's what you mean by Faith, then we're on the same page. Yay! Handshakes all around.

But a great many people, when they say "faith," actually just mean "intellectual assent," so we have to remember that James (who has the same authority in the Holy Spirit as Paul) says, "Faith without works is dead."

And we have to remember that Paul agrees with James; for Paul himself said, "if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing." But I'm truly glad we're in agreement on that.