Posted on 12/25/2014 12:25:15 PM PST by Jan_Sobieski
Speaking to a group of Christian clergy at the Easter Prayer Breakfast he hosted at the White House on Wednesday, President Barack Obama referred to Jesus Christ as “a son of God.”
“It’s an opportunity for us to reflect on the triumph of the resurrection, and to give thanks for the all-important gift of grace,” Obama said of Easter, which is this Sunday. “And for me, and I’m sure for some of you, it’s also a chance to remember the tremendous sacrifice that led up to that day, and all that Christ endured--not just as a Son of God, but as a human being.”
(Excerpt) Read more at cnsnews.com ...
only one of two things can be happening here:
1. you are trying to convince someone with an IQ less than 90, which is a fools errand.
or more likely,
2. they realize that Catholic’s don’t worship Mary, but they love telling the “untruth” because they are doing the will of their father, who is the god of this world and the father of “untruths” because the truth isn’t in him.
ironic isn’t, those who falsely accuse Catholics of idolatry ( worshipping anything other than the One true God )are actually guilty of the sin of idolatry by actually doing the will of devil, who is always falsely accusing Christians.
BTW, this charge of worshipping Mary has it’s roots in Islam, where the devil inspired Mohammed to falsely assert that the Catholics worshipped three gods in the Koran, the Father,Jesus and Mary.
so congratulations ealgeone, that’s some great company you are keeping.
Thank you.
I have now encountered several of these people who are so filled with hatred for Mary that in their attempts to reduce her role to nothing, deny the Incarnation. One of them, just yesterday, said that Jesus’ flesh was NOT HUMAN FLESH—Jesus (body and soul) came entirely from heaven, and was merely placed in the womb of Mary. He said that Joseph AND Mary adopted Jesus when he was born—and NEITHER one was his parent.
Hatred of Mary leading straight to Docetism!
Another lie. Absolutely, totally false.
As to the assertion that "veneration" is really "adoration": Well, if you are determined to believe that all those who make that distinction are liars, then you are free to do so. It makes you an anti-Catholic bigot, however.
Bigot....wow....catholics sure get defensive real quick.
Let's just let catholicism speak for itself on this issue....shall we?
"Mary is the intermediary through whom is distributed unto us this immense treasure of mercies gathered by God, for mercy and truth were created by Jesus Christ. Thus as no man goeth to the Father but by the Son, so no man goeth to Christ but by His Mother." (Vatican Website: Encyclical of Pope Leo XIII on the Rosary, Octobri Mense, Pope Leo XIII, 1903-1914)
You may recognize Pope Leo XIII is not a non-Catholic "bigot".
That in itself should be enough to show your point about non-catholics lying is well....let's just say, misinformed.
But as the tv commercials say....but wait, there's more!
…..showing that the Catholic Church has always, and with justice, put all her hope and trust in the Mother of God. SUPREMI APOSTOLATUS OFFICIO ENCYCLICAL OF POPE LEO XIIION DEVOTION OF THE ROSARY
There's Leo again....
This first motive shows us the excellence of the consecration of ourselves to Jesus through Mary.
http://www.ewtn.com/library/Montfort/TRUEDEVO.HTM
They should then spend three weeks imbuing themselves with the spirit of Jesus through the most Blessed Virgin. Here is a programme they might follow:
At the end of these three weeks they should go to confession and Holy Communion with the intention of consecrating themselves to Jesus through Mary as slaves of love.
This first motive shows us the excellence of the consecration of ourselves to Jesus through Mary.
In "Glories of Mary" by Liguori, whose writings were declared free from anything meriting censure by Pope Gregory XVI (1839) in the bull of his canonization, he teaches,
Beware, chosen soul, of thinking that it is more perfect to direct your work and intention straight to Jesus or straight to God. Without Mary, your work and your intention will be of little value. But if you go to God through Mary, your work will become Mary's work, and consequently will be most noble and most worthy of God. - THE SECRET OF MARY, St. Louis de Montfort; http://www.ewtn.com/library/Montfort/SECRET.HTM
A few other quotes from catholic writers:
If you persevere until death in true devotion to Mary, you salvation is certain. St. Alphonsus Maria Liguori
He who is faithful in the service of Mary will certainly be saved . . .There is no one, however wicked, whom Mary does not save by her intercession when she wishes . . . He who has recourse to Mary shall be saved. St. Alphonsus Maria Liguori
However great a sinner may have been, if he shows himself devout to Mary he will never perish. St. Hilary of Poitiers
Mary was made Mother of God to obtain salvation for many who, on account of their wicked lives, could not be saved according to the rigor of Divine justice, but might be saved with the help of her sweet mercy and powerful intercession. St. John Chrysostom
There are lots more quotes like these. But I think you get the idea.
And now, there is a move to have a fifth marian dogma declared. It just needs a little more time and it will happen.
Catholics keep going and they will no longer have a need for Christ! Maybe they've already done this....from Leo again:
We constantly seek for help from Heaven - the sole means of effecting anything - that our labours and our care may obtain their wished for object. We deem that there could be no surer and more efficacious means to this end than by religion and piety to obtain the favour of the great Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, the guardian of our peace and the minister to us of heavenly grace, who is placed on the highest summit of power and glory in Heaven, in order that she may bestow the help of her patronage on men who through so many labours and dangers are striving to reach that eternal city.
Funny....John never mentioned seeing her there.
so congratulations ealgeone, that’s some great company you are keeping.
Bogus....an non-Catholic can see catholics worship Mary.
It more likely comes through statements like this from that great islamist.....opps....sorry...catholic pope....
"Mary is the intermediary through whom is distributed unto us this immense treasure of mercies gathered by God, for mercy and truth were created by Jesus Christ. Thus as no man goeth to the Father but by the Son, so no man goeth to Christ but by His Mother." (Vatican Website: Encyclical of Pope Leo XIII on the Rosary, Octobri Mense, Pope Leo XIII, 1903-1914)
Catholics say Joseph and Mary never had any other kids yet the Bible notes they did.
Catechism 969:
“Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation”
time to shake the dust off your sandals my friend........
Glory to God in the highest,and on earth peace to people of good will.We praise you,we bless you,we adore you,we glorify you,we give you thanks for your great glory,Lord God, heavenly King,O God, almighty Father.Lord Jesus Christ, Only Begotten Son,Lord God, Lamb of God, Son of the Father,you take away the sins of the world, have mercy on us;you take away the sins of the world, receive our prayer.you are seated at the right hand of the Father, have mercy on us.For you alone are the Holy One, you alone are the Lord, you alone are the Most High,Jesus Christ, with the Holy Spirit, in the glory of God the Father. Amen.
for educational purposes, the above prayer, called “ the Gloria “ is presented for all non Catholics of goodwill and who actually are concerned with truth, in which the Church prays as one at all Masses, to prove:
1. the Church teaches there is only One true God, Father, Son and Holy Sprit.
2. God ALONE is to be worshipped.
3. God can and should be prayed to without any mention of Mary.
Not according to Leo.....
Mary’s function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin’s salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it.”513 “No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source
Catechism 970
my emphasis:
NO CREATURE COULD EVER BE COUNTED ALONG WITH THE INCARNATE WORD AND REDEEMER.
get it? Mary is a creature, a being created by God. It would be a mortal sin to worship her or any other creature.
presented if there are any lurkers who sincerely don’t know what the Chhurch teaches.
others, who have been corrected and insist on making false accusations, well, as I say, they are just doing the will of their father.
Hence why catholics redefine worship....
Nonsense.
Jesus had relatives, “brothers” in some translations. Possibly cousins, possibly sons of Joseph by a previous wife. But there is NO assertion anywhere in Scripture that Joseph fathered children by Mary. Absolutely none.
At the Annunciation, Mary said, “...I know not man...” I.e., she had taken a vow of virginity, and she DID NOT EXPECT to be having relations with Joseph. There is no suggestion anywhere that the vow was violated.
The worship properly given to God is latria.
The veneration given to Mary and other saints is dulia.
Catholics do not “redefine worship.” In fact, Catholic theology defines “worship” or “latria” with fine precision, and distinguishes it from “veneration” or “dulia” with further fine precision.
It is a mortal sin to falsely accuse other Christians of committing the crime of idolatry. A mortal sin, unrepented, will send a person to Hell.
I am reporting your anti-Catholic bigotry.
“Mary’s function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power.”
John 3:13 -
“And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”
1 Timothy 2:5 -
“For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus”
“At the Annunciation, Mary said, “...I know not man...” I.e., she had taken a vow of virginity, and she DID NOT EXPECT to be having relations with Joseph. There is no suggestion anywhere that the vow was violated.”
This passage in Matthew shows that after the birth of Jesus, Mary and Joseph moved forward with normal married relations.
Matthew 1:25 -
“And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.”
Well, seeing how you've already been shown to be incorrect on catholics having to go through Mary to get to Christ why should I believe you on this?
And it turns out once again catholicism is wrong.
Jesus had relatives, “brothers” in some translations. Possibly cousins, possibly sons of Joseph by a previous wife.
The Greek in the New Testament supports Joseph and Mary having children in addition to Christ. In Luke 2:7 the good doctor notes: and she gave birth to her firstborn son. The Greek word for first born is πρωτότοκος. It means first, pre-eminent. HELPS Word-studies.
If Luke had wanted to indicate this was her only son, he could have used υἱὸν μονογενῆ...only son. μονογενής (adjective) means only begotten, unique. This is how John referred to Jesus in 3:16 to indicate He was the only son of God.
Recall that Luke was a doctor and would be precise in these matters.
But there is NO assertion anywhere in Scripture that Joseph fathered children by Mary. Absolutely none.
In the section below you used the word "know" to describe Mary not having had sex with anyone. I am glad you did.
In the context of the passage in Luke 1:34 it is understood that "know a man" from her viewpoint was discussing sexual intercourse.
Using context to understanding Scripture is key.
The Greek word used in Luke 1:34 is the same verb, thought in different tenses, used by Matthew in Matthew 1:25 when Matthew records that "he knew her not until that she had brought forth a son"...
The greek word is γινώσκω.
It means: properly, to know, especially through personal experience (first hand acquaintance), to experientially know. HELPS Word-Studies K
In Mary's case the is γινώσκω. It is in the present tense. It can mean continuous action or undefined action. This is determined from the standpoint of the speaker. In the context of Luke 1 it is clear this is a continuous action from Luke's perspective. Mary had continuously remained a virgin through the announcement of the angel.
Now, to keep things in context, we turn to Matthew.
Matthew had followed the command of the angel of the Lord "and not knew her until she had brought forth a son." Then the marriage was consummated. The plain reading of the text, and the usage of the word until indicates this.
The Greek Word ἐγίνωσκεν is in the imperfect tense. It describes a continuous action usually occurring in the past.
Matthew is recording that Joseph, being a righteous man, obeyed the angel and kept Mary a virgin until Jesus was born.
If until was not in the sentence then there would be merit to the catholic claim of perpetual virginity. But Matthew put until in the sentence as he knew the facts. Joseph and Mary had sexual intercourse. This is borne out in Matthew 13:55-56 when he notes: "Is this not the carpenter's son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? And with His sisters, are they not all with us?...."
The opening question in the Greek in Matt 13:55 is designed to reveal a yes answer. ουχ ουτος εστιν ο του τεκτονος; ( not this is the of the carpenter?)
Again, context is the key.
At the Annunciation, Mary said, “...I know not man...” I.e., she had taken a vow of virginity, and she DID NOT EXPECT to be having relations with Joseph. There is no suggestion anywhere that the vow was violated.
Pure speculation on catholicism's part Mary had taken a vow to remain a virgin and a distortion of the text.
Her actual reply to Gabriel was "How can this be, since I am a virgin?" This is by no means a promise to remain a virgin.
Nothing in the text indicates this so catholicism is projecting something into the text that is not there.
So we have the Greek to support Joseph and Mary having other children and we have context which supports Joseph and Mary having other children.
We also have Acts 1:14, Paul writing in Galatians that he met James, the brother of Jesus, John 2:12 and others showing Jesus had siblings.
Bottom line.....Mary was not a perpetual virgin.
Know why I love Christmas? It’s the only time of the year protestants don’t make fun of Catholic nativity scenes, full of those awful Catholic statues to Mary! LOL.
A depiction of the birth of Christ, with Christ at the center btw, is now on par with kneeling to statues of Mary, offering prayers up to Mary, the pledges of FULL devotion to Mary and on and on and on it goes....
And please don't say catholics don't fully devote themselves to Mary....too many writings say otherwise.
You do understand that you’re debating a Catholic priest on the place of Mary in Christianity? A Catholic priest has many, many years of advanced study in divinity and sacred scripture. In the United States, priests must have a four-year university degree in philosophy plus an additional four to five years of graduate-level seminary formation in theology with a focus on Biblical research. A Master of Divinity is the most common degree. And that’s BEFORE THEY ARE ORDAINED! The last person in the world I would want to debate about the role of Mary is a Catholic priest.
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