Evangelicals & the Eucharist (Part 1)

The Cripplegate, New Generation of Non-Conformists ^ | May 23, 2013 | Nathan Busenitz, professor of theology at Cripplegate's The Master’s Seminary

[Arthur McGowan]

Consuming the blood of the Passover lamb would have been disgusting.

Since Jesus makes it possible to consume his blood without being horrified, there is no problem.

[boatbums]

Good article.

What I find striking about the difference between what Roman Catholicism teaches about the Lord's Supper from Evangelicals and most Protestant denominations is that it's only the RCs who assert "their" priests and bishops alone have the "authority" to properly conduct the commemoration ordinance. They claim that without this authority there can be no true observance and, therefore, no spiritual value/grace is imparted to those who participate outside of the confines of the RCC.

The author will get into the propitiational aspect in the next part, but I think it's telling how Roman Catholicism has used this ordinance of the Lord to keep her members in line and afraid to consider other ways of viewing the historical observance. This is worth discussing, as well. We see no such restrictions demanded by the Apostles, only the general idea of what believers should so and why they should do it.

[Arthur McGowan]

What do you think you are accomplishing by quoting a few words I wrote, while ignoring everything else I wrote? Am I supposed to have FORGOTTEN everything I said other than the little snippet you quoted? Am I supposed to slap myself on the forehead, saying, “She trapped me”?

The Eucharist is LOADED with symbolism. Bread symbolizes flesh, because it nourishes flesh. Wine symbolizes blood. Wine comes from crushed grapes. The juice is, in a sense, the “blood” of the grapes.

Considering, however, that the Catholic Church teaches that the Eucharist is to be ADORED, WORSHIPED, in the full sense of the word, with the worship of LATRIA that is to be given to God alone, it is just silly to pick phrases or even ISOLATED WORDS from Catholic writings (ancient writings or posts on FR) and say: “Ah HAH! He used the word “SYMBOL”!”

[Arthur McGowan]

AG: The flesh and blood Jesus gave them in the sacrament was THE SAME FLESH AND BLOOD physically present to their eyes, ears, and touch.

metmom: IOW, it's a SYMBOL.

Tell me how you get "It's a symbol" from the sentence above.

[boatbums]

Of course, Christ died for our sins. But we are all sinners and fall into sin again and again. What do we do then?

Good question. You don't have to have Jesus re-sacrificed, that's for sure! Since we ALL sin even after we become believers in Christ, Scripture tells us what we should do:

If we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (I John 1:7-9)

The shed blood of Jesus Christ on the cross of Calvary was for the sins of the world - past, present and future. Only by the shedding of blood is there atonement for sin.

In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace. (Eph. 1:7)

Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. (Hebrews 7:27)

He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption. (Heb. 9:12)

Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. (Hebrews 9:26)

And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. (Heb. 10:10-14)

[mrobisr]

Just another example of them not following their own Bible.

Mark 9:38-40 New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)

38 John said to him, “Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him, because he was not following us.” 39 But Jesus said, “Do not stop him; for no one who does a deed of power in my name will be able soon afterward to speak evil of me. 40 Whoever is not against us is for us.

[redleghunter]

>>Instead of having to invoke symbolism, maybe he said what he said with the knowledge that the apostles understood the symbolism in what he said.<<

Good point Hoss. And the disciples DID understand shadows and symbols. They were sitting at a Passover Seder. During the meal there are several iterations of drinking cups of wine and eating. Each series of cups mean something that already happened physically or will happen. As we see below.

The first cup of wine

The seder begins with a blessing recited over the first of four cups of wine: "Blessed art thou, Lord our God, King of the Universe, who hast created the fruit of the vine." Jesus himself blessed the first cup in Luke 22:17-18.

The second cup of wine

The second cup is to remind us of the Ten Plagues and the suffering of the Egyptians when they hardened their heart to the Lord. In order not to rejoice over the suffering of our enemies (Prov. 24:17), we spill a drop of wine (which is a symbol of joy) as we recite each of the Ten Plagues, thus remembering that our joy is diminished at the suffering of others.

Third Cup

The third cup of wine is taken after the meal. It is the cup of redemption, which reminds us of the shed blood of the innocent Lamb which brought our redemption from Egypt. We see that Jesus took the third cup in Luke 22:20 and 1 Corinthians 11:25, "In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, 'This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.'" This was not just any cup, it was the cup of redemption from slavery into freedom. This is our communion cup.

Fourth Cup

The fourth cup is the Cup of Hallel. Hallel in Hebrew means "praise," and we see in the beautiful High Priestly Prayer of John 17, that Jesus took time to praise and thank the Lord at the end of the Passover Seder, his last supper. The spotless Passover Lamb had praise on his lips as he went to his death.

So yes, the disciples knew the Hebrew context of the Lord's Table.

More Passover

[editor-surveyor]

.
>> “We all adultery, murder, lie, steal, etc.. Every single one of us does it in our hearts.” <<

.

1John 1:

[5] This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
[6] If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
[7] But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
[8] If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
[9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
[10] If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1John 2:

[1] My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
[2] And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
[3] And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
[4] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
[5] But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
[6] He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
[7] Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
[8] Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
[9] He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
[10] He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
[11] But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes

[editor-surveyor]

.
But you left out the eating of the Easter ham...

.

[Springfield Reformer]

LOL!

[redleghunter]

>>But we are all sinners and fall into sin again and again. What do we do then?<<

Salvation, a lot was written by St Paul on your question. It is a daily struggle (some more some less). We still wear the corrupt flesh even though we are born again of the Spirit. Paul said when we put on Christ we become a new creature, the old things are past and the new has come. The apostle John said this:

1 John 2 King James Version (KJV)

2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.(KJV)

Then this from the apostle Paul:

Romans 8 King James Version (KJV)

8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

[redleghunter]

>>Does that mean that you can commit adultery, murder, lie, steal, etc. and still be saved? What a falsehood that is!<< Can one do all of the above as long as they go to confession? At what point in murdering and manner of repeat adultery does the confessional explode?

So the premise you set is absurd as it is in contradiction of God's Plan of Grace:

Ezekiel 36:

22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went. 23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Count the number of times you read "I will" above and Who is doing the Work and what is being done.

[redleghunter]

A different approach is to bring the leftover communion bread to shut ins and the poor.

[Springfield Reformer]

But we are all sinners and fall into sin again and again. What do we do then?

What did Jesus tell Peter?

Matthew 18:21-22  Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?  (22)  Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

So if God wants us to keep on forgiving each other, why would we think He would do less for us than what He expects us to do for each other?  You cannot exhaust God's willingness to forgive.  But this forgiveness comes at a cost.  Every sin we as believers commit, past present, and future, put Jesus on that tree.  If we really belong to Him, we will always come back to Him, and like the father of the prodigal Son, we will always find Him willing to forgive.  But He is only able to forgive us, because He has already given Himself for us.

So what do we do?  We say we're sorry.  We give up the sin.  And then we have faith that "he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."  That's what we do.  It's not hard.  A child could do it. Why we make things so complicated, when what God really wants is our love and trust, I will never fully understand.

Peace,

SR

[roamer_1]

The seder begins with a blessing recited over the first of four cups of wine: "Blessed art thou, Lord our God, King of the Universe, who hast created the fruit of the vine." Jesus himself blessed the first cup in Luke 22:17-18.

Take very careful notice of the blessing here - it is *NOT* the victuals receiving some majick juju... YHWH is called blessed, not the food. It is thanks and recognition...

[Grateful2God]

We are all Children of God. We share a common humanity: body, mind, spirit/soul. We each have feelings, emotions, ideas, beliefs - they may be different, unique to each person, but we are all made in the Image and Likeness of God.

I choose to embrace our commonality while RESPECTING OUR DIFFERENCES. We differ on the truth of Transsubstiation. For whatever reason, my non-Catholic Bretheren choose to become involved in this Catholic belief in a negative manner, purportedly out of concern for souls. It is thusmy duty and privilege as a Catholic, to repair for any disrespect shown to the Real Presence of Jesus in the Most Blessed Sacrament as a result of this and the second part of the anti-Catholic posts.

God bless you, and give you peace and charity!

Eucharistic Act of Faith

I believe in God the Father Almighty.
I believe in God the Son, Jesus Christ.
I believe in God the Holy Spirit.
I believe in the Holy Trinity.
I believe in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist.
I believe in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Body of Christ, the Consecrated Bread.
I believe in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Blood of Christ, the Consecrated Wine.

I believe that Jesus instituted the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church as His dwelling Home on earth.
I believe in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Sacred Tabernacles of the Catholic Church.
I believe that Jesus is truly present physically among us,
over and above being spiritually present within us.
May this truth be known to all for the glory of God.
Amen.

May the Heart of Jesus, in the Most Blessed Sacrament, be praised, adored, and loved; with grateful affection, at every moment, in all the Tabernacles of the world, even into the end of time.

AMEN!

[Grateful2God]

Why do you who are sola scriptura consider Catholic Church Fathers and the Blessed Sacrament "worthy of discussion"? This is criticism of something having to do with the absolute Mystery of Catholicism, and which is being mocked and mistreated. You know from experience that the Church teaches that the Blessed Sacrament is Jesus Christ, Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity. because, by your own admission in your profile, you are a former Catholic. You chose to leave, that is your right, and your own path to God. I do not condemn you. What, then, is it to you or those whom you pinged, if you don't believe? Can you discuss nothing else? Why insult what we, and the Catholics you knew, believe to be This, the Real Presence of Jesus? Believe as you choose, hate Catholicism if you wish, but please leave our Eucharistic Jesus in peace!

[Grateful2God]

"The Methodist Church says about Communion “something happens”

While it isn't Transsubstantiation, I'm certain that the Methodists must believe more than just that. It's sad to see that Methodism or any other Christian faith is also being mocked here.

[Grateful2God]

PS: UMC Communion

[Elsie]

no thanks; I’m getting tired of the SAME OLD STUFF!