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To: Springfield Reformer
And what part of that would any Reformed or Southern Baptist or non-denominational store front church member disagree with? God is real, but God is a spirit. Love is real, but you cannot ingest it bodily. We are to live not by bread but every word from God's mouth, but no one I know of is eating pages from their Bible. Real does not have to be corporeal to be really real. Am I being real clear? :)
    I assume you reject the Catholic, Orthodox, and Lutheran view of the Eucharist. Do you believe
  1. those who receive the elements with faith can receive the actual body and blood of Jesus through the power of the Holy Spirit which works through the sacrament (Calvin: Receptionism), or
  2. there is no form of any physical or spiritual presence of Jesus in the bread and wine; it is just a remembrance (Zwingli: Memorialism)

208 posted on 01/29/2015 3:24:00 PM PST by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began.)
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To: af_vet_1981
I assume you reject the Catholic, Orthodox, and Lutheran view of the Eucharist.

A reasonable assumption.  Except it's not that simple. While any view that holds to corporeal realism in the Lord's Supper is a serious deviation from Biblical truth, the Lutherans don't engage in the very late practice of eucharistic adoration.  This is because the Lutherans have no basis for worship of the Eucharistic elements per se. Sacramental Union does not transform the elements in terms of substance.  Rather, it puts the sign and the thing signified in a special relationship to each other, while keeping creature distinct from Creator, thus giving no occasion to even consider an idolatrous view of the elements.  All this runs in their favor.  As far as I am aware, Christianity in all its forms existed for over a thousand years before anyone thought to bend the knee of worship to the wafer as if it were, in itself, Christ bodily present.  

Do you believe
1.those who receive the elements with faith can receive the actual body and blood of Jesus through the power of the Holy Spirit which works through the sacrament (Calvin: Receptionism), or


Receptionism is a term I never heard used in Reformed circles, Presbyterian, Christian Reformed, Baptist or otherwise.  I did discover the term is more commonly used among Anglicans, and they are, or at least were at their inception, Catholics sans pope.  I can make no association of the term with Calvin. That doesn't mean there is no such association.  Only that I've never heard of it.

As far as what the Reformed do hold, I believe it is most often called Spiritual Presence, the idea that the communicant is partaking of the body and blood, but that it is by operation of the Holy Spirit drawing the communicant into the presence of Christ in Heaven.  Thus the entire transaction is spiritual, orchestrated by God, not the human administrator, and involves no change of the symbolic elements, other than their meaning.

This is a position I have difficulty seeing in Scripture, but as it provides no occasion for idolatry of the elements, it is no barrier to Christian fellowship.  It is technically classed as a Real Presence position (spiritual is still real), but as that term has largely been hijacked by the Aristotelian materialists, it is perhaps less confusing to designate it as Spiritual Presence.

2.there is no form of any physical or spiritual presence of Jesus in the bread and wine; it is just a remembrance (Zwingli: Memorialism)

With one important correction:  Jesus is always present in a most real way in the fellowship of His Ecclesia. We are His body.  How could He not be present, especially in those moments when we reflect on His sacrifice for us? With that adjustment in mind, this is the position that seems to best accord with Scripture.  John 6 is not a teaching about the Eucharist.  It is a teaching about Jesus, and His capacity to satisfy our spiritual need, if we believe in Him.  Each of the other passages that directly address the Lord's Supper all square with the actual, stated purpose of the Lord's Supper,  which is to remember Him, and proclaim His death till He comes, and no Scripture supports extending that purpose to include the granting by ritual of saving grace.  Not that there is no grant of grace.  There is.  But it is initiated by God Himself, made manifest by faith in Christ, and not ever in consequence of the consumption or worship of man-made food items.  

Peace,

SR

238 posted on 01/29/2015 11:28:24 PM PST by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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