Salvation is FROM Jesus Christ, THROUGH His shed blood. There, fixed it for you. Not once in scripture does it say through a church.
And where does it say in Scripture that something needs to be in Scripture in order to be believed? Aren't you the one who kept calling "straw man" whenever I suggested that you (and others of like mind) thought "sola Scriptura" entitled you to dismiss anything which isn't explicitly found in the 66-book Protestant Bible? Beyond that, see
my comment at #730, re: the role of the Church.
[paladinan]
Have you forgotten all that I wrote, so soon?
[CynicalBear]
Repeating the twisting of scripture by the Catholic Church doesn't change the fact that it's still twisted and in error.
And asserting a baseless claim, over and over, does not change the fact that it's baseless. I understand that "the Catholic Church is twisting Scripture" is your personal opinion. Fine. But if you want to assert it as "truth" (and not merely a reflection of your personal tastes), you'll need to prove it. As the saying goes: you're entitled to your own opinions, but you're not entitled to your own facts.
[paladinan]
and you think that the Sacraments have nothing to do with faith, do you?
[CynicalBear]
They amount to pagan rituals, no more.
Chapter and verse, please? Or is this another mere opinion? See my comment, above.
Read the letters to the seven churches in Revelation. "churches" do nothing as far as salvation is concerned and most of them inhibit it just as the Catholic Church does.
There's an obvious distinction between the "Churches" mentioned in Revelation and in the writings of St. Paul (we'd call them "dioceses", or "bishoprics"), and "the Church" (singular) which Christ promised to build in Matthew 16:18, and which has legislative and judicial authority (Matthew 18:17). Apples and oranges, FRiend.
Ephesians 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.
Looks pretty solid to me.
"He who endures to the end will be saved." (Matthew 10:22, repeated verbatim in Matthew 24:13) That looks pretty solid to me. Also: having a guaranteed inheritance doesn't logically require that the heir will actually CLAIM it; sin does, in fact, separate us from God, and some people (sadly) choose a mess o' pottage instead of their birthright.
John 10:27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.
That give is a present tense verb, not future.
Okay... just as you can "give" me an indestructible gem. What's stopping me from freely choosing to throw it away? Re: "not snatching", see my reply to metmom.
The Father has given, not will give. It's a done deal paladinan.
In one sense, yes: the Father's offer is irrevocable. But our acceptance of it is NOT irrevocable; we can still fall away (cf. 1 Corinthians 10:12, Hebrews 3:12, Hebrews 6:4-6, etc.)
With the guarantee of the Holy Spirit until the redemption. We can trust God's promise and guarantee don't you think?
We can trust His free offer, absolutely. It's the other side of the equation (i.e. OUR side, where we can use our free will to reject Him in favor of lesser things) that isn't so trustworthy. Don't mistake me: I don't say that we need to live in fear and/or despair; I merely say that any idea of "once-saved-always-saved, no matter what sins I commit" is a fiction and a grave mistake.
>>And where does it say in Scripture that something needs to be in Scripture in order to be believed?<<
Galatians 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God's curse!
Unless you can show any other documented proof of what the apostles taught we are left with scripture alone.
>>Beyond that, see my comment at #730, re: the role of the Church.<<
Anybody with a lick of sense knows that foundations and pillars don't build or create. The Catholic Church putting out that "pillar and foundation" quote as some type of licenses to create truth other than found in scripture is imbecilic.
>>There's an obvious distinction between the "Churches" mentioned in Revelation and in the writings of St. Paul<<
First of all the word "church" and the concept of it as put forth today doesn't exist in the New Testament. The word used is ekklesia and Matthew 18:17 was talking about the local ekklesia of believers allowing someone persisting in sin to meet with that group. Once again the Catholic Church twisting that verse to mean something it doesn't is creating a false "church".
>>"He who endures to the end will be saved." (Matthew 10:22, repeated verbatim in Matthew 24:13) That looks pretty solid to me.<<
It sure does. And the Holy Spirit guarantee to us who know His voice will never be lost by the Father as He promised.
>>What's stopping me from freely choosing to throw it away?<<
A person with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit wouldn't even think to make that statement. Your "snatching away" comment is purely lacking in knowledge. It's Satan who does the "snatching away" and we have the promise of God that the possibility of that happening to those He has chosen isn't feasible.
>>But our acceptance of it is NOT irrevocable; we can still fall away (cf. 1 Corinthians 10:12, Hebrews 3:12, Hebrews 6:4-6, etc.)<<
1 Corinthians 10:12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall. 13No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.
I don't see much faith in God's abilities in your statements paladinan.
Hebrews 3:12 is under the heading "dangers of unbelief". Paul was talking about those who didn't believe the gospel. He's talking about encouraging others to believe rather than remain in unbelief.
>>We can trust His free offer, absolutely. It's the other side of the equation (i.e. OUR side, where we can use our free will to reject Him in favor of lesser things) that isn't so trustworthy.<<
Once again, no one with the indwelling Holy Spirit would even think to make a comment like that. If you think there is a possibility that you would "reject Him" it may be an indication that some serious private prayer asking for the closeness of the Holy Spirit is in order.