Replies

“Jesus came to save sinners, not to tell everyone what religion to join”

Exactly, thank you for clarifying your belief. Unfortunately, there are many Catholics who believe as that story states. I even recently had one tell me that Billy Graham was going to hell because he is not Catholic!

One clarification of what you stated though...Jesus began the catholic church (universal) not the Catholic Church per se. I think that clarification is important to stifle the false exclusivity some Catholics portray their church as.

I admire and indeed am considering conversion to Catholicism, but one of the big roadblocks for me is this exclusivity idea. I cannot buy into it. I am hoping that this is not actual Catholic belief, just a spin off belief held by some.

Note Pius IX’s treatment of invincible ignorance in several places. The Catholic Church has never taught that anyone could be damned except for deliberate mortal sin.

Here is the answer to this question from the Baltimore Catechism:

Q. 509. Are all bound to belong to the Church?

A. All are bound to belong to the Church, and he who knows the Church to be the true Church and remains out of it cannot be saved.

And Pius IX:

Pope Pius IX (1846–1878), Allocution Singulari quadam, December 9, 1854: “Not without sorrow we have learned that another error, no less destructive, has taken possession of some parts of the Catholic world, and has taken up its abode in the souls of many Catholics who think that one should have good hope of the eternal salvation of all those who have never lived in the true Church of Christ. Therefore, they are wont to ask very often what will be the lot and condition of those who have not submitted in any way to the Catholic faith, and, by bringing forward most vain reasons, they make a response favorable to their false opinion. Far be it from Us, Venerable Brethren, to presume on the limits of the divine mercy which is infinite; far from Us, to wish to scrutinize the hidden counsel and “judgements of God” which are “a great abyss” (Ps. 35.7) and cannot be penetrated by human thought. But, as is Our Apostolic Duty, we wish your episcopal solicitude and vigilance to be aroused, so that you will strive as much as you can to drive form the mind of men that impious and equally fatal opinion, namely, that the way of eternal salvation can be found in any religion whatsoever. May you demonstrate with skill and learning in which you excel, to the people entrusted to your care that the dogmas of the Catholic faith are in no wise opposed to divine mercy and justice.
“For, it must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood; but, on the other hand, it is necessary to hold for certain that they who labor in ignorance of the true religion, if this ignorance is invincible, will not be held guilty of this in the eyes of God. Now, in truth, who would arrogate so much to himself as to mark the limits of such an ignorance, because of the nature and variety of peoples, regions, innate dispositions, and of so many other things? For, in truth, when released from these corporeal chains ‘we shall see God as He is’ (1 John 3.2), we shall understand perfectly by how close and beautiful a bond divine mercy and justice are united; but as long as we are on earth, weighed down by this mortal mass which blunts the soul, let us hold most firmly that, in accordance with Catholic teaching, there is “one God, one faith, one baptism” (Eph. 4.5); it is unlawful to proceed further in inquiry.
“But, just as the way of charity demands, let us pour forth continual prayers that all nations everywhere may be converted to Christ; and let us be devoted to the common salvation of men in proportion to our strength, ‘for the hand of the Lord is not shortened’ (Isa. 9.1) and the gifts of heavenly grace will not be wanting to those who sincerely wish and ask to be refreshed by this light.”[6]
Pope Pius IX (1846–1878), Encyclical Singulari quidem March 17, 1856): “Teach that just as there is only one God, one Christ, one Holy Spirit, so there is also only one truth which is divinely revealed. There is only one divine faith which is the beginning of salvation for mankind and the basis of all justification, the faith by which the just person lives and without which it is impossible to please God and come to the community of His children (Romans 1; Hebrews 11; Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter 8). There is only one true, holy, Catholic Church, which is the Apostolic Roman Church. There is only one See founded on Peter by the word of the Lord (St. Cyprian, Epistle 43), outside of which we cannot find either true faith or eternal salvation. He who does not have the Church for a mother cannot have God for a father, and whoever abandons the See of Peter on which the Church is established trusts falsely that he is in the Church (ibid, On the Unity of the Catholic Church). ... Outside of the Church, nobody can hope for life or salvation unless he is excused through ignorance beyond his control.”[7]
Pope Pius IX (1846–1878), Encyclical Quanto conficiamur moerore, August 10, 1863: “And here, beloved Sons and Venerable Brothers, We should mention again and censure a very grave error in which some Catholics are unhappily engaged, who believe that men living in error, and separated from the true faith and from Catholic unity, can attain eternal life. Indeed, this is certainly quite contrary to Catholic teaching. It is known to Us and to you that they who labor in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion and who, zealously keeping the natural law and its precepts engraved in the hearts of all by God, and being ready to obey God, live an honest and upright life, can, by the operating power of divine light and grace, attain eternal life, since God who clearly beholds, searches, and knows the minds, souls, thoughts, and habits of all men, because of His great goodness and mercy, will by no means suffer anyone to be punished with eternal torment who has not the guilt of deliberate sin. But, the Catholic dogma that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church is well-known; and also that those who are obstinate toward the authority and definitions of the same Church, and who persistently separate themselves from the unity of the Church, and from the Roman Pontiff, the successor of Peter, to whom ‘the guardianship of the vine has been entrusted by the Savior,’ (Council of Chalcedon, Letter to Pope Leo I) cannot obtain eternal salvation. The words of Christ are clear enough: ‘And if he will not hear the Church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican’ (Matthew 18:17); ‘He that heareth you, heareth Me; and he that dispeth you, despiseth Me; and he that dispiseth Me, despiseth Him that sent Me’ (Luke 10:16); ‘He that believeth not shall be condemned’ (Mark 16:16); ‘He that doth not believe, is already judged’ (John 3:18); ‘He that is not with Me, is against Me; and he that gathereth not with Me, scattereth’ (Luke 11:23). The Apostle Paul says that such persons are ‘perverted and self-condemned’ (Titus 3:11); the Prince of the Apostles calls the ‘false prophets… who shall bring in sects of perdition, and deny the Lord who bought them: bringing upon themselves swift destruction’ (2 Peter 2:1).”[8]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_Ecclesiam_nulla_salus

>>I am hoping that this is not actual Catholic belief, just a spin off belief held by some.<<

It's no "spin off belief" Wpin. One only need read their Catechism and see the so called "infallible" statements made that restrict salvation to only within that "church". Christ didn't set up an institution or organization. He said that belief on Him and Him alone is what indicated you were part of His ekklesia (those called out to be His). The arrogant and prideful "we are the only one" is contrary to what He taught.

From the Catholic church's own catechism .......

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

They claim there's an exception for what they refer to as *invincible ignorance* but that disqualifies people who have heard Catholic church claims of being the one true church.

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

Basically, this leaves the door wide open for anyone to be saved without Christ. Even their pope has recently stated that atheists can be saved if they live right.

Then there's this tidbit about islam and muslims with the pope kissing the Koran.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P29.HTM

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330

If you choose to join the Catholic church, do it with eyes wide open.

I was raised Catholic and after I committed my life to Christ could not stay in the RCC. And for that I have been lambasted. You can see the comments yourself.

Some people choose to stay and that's their decision between them and God.

I admire and indeed am considering conversion to Catholicism, but one of the big roadblocks for me is this exclusivity idea. I cannot buy into it. I am hoping that this is not actual Catholic belief, just a spin off belief held by some.

What differences do you see between what you described and what we may call the exclusive claims historically held within Christianity? With a few changes, "I even recently had one tell me that Billy Graham was going to hell because he is not Catholic!" can become "I even recently had one tell me that Gandhi was going to hell because he is not Christian!" I will not be linking to anything of this sort, but it shouldn't be hard to find a "skeptic" complaining about Christian non-universalism.

I am not trying to merge or equate the two "exclusivities" (although I can see how some people would), but I got reminded of the similarity pretty quickly.

(From Mark 16:16, at least if one does not question it as scriptural: "he that believeth not shall be damned." From John 3:18, which does not have the same questions concerning the ending of Mark: "he that believeth not is condemned already." If the original quotation, and the resulting title of this thread, had been "Whoever does not embrace the Christian religion will be damned"--and I'm not saying that it should've been--this thread would've taken some different directions.)