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Faith Alone v. Forgiving Trespasses: How the Lord's Prayer Contradicts the Reformation
Catholic Defense ^ | February 25, 2015

Posted on 02/25/2015 11:50:17 AM PST by NYer

Lines from the Lord's Prayer, in various languages.
From the Eucharist Door at the Glory Facade of the Sagrada Família in Barcelona, Spain.

It's Lent in Rome. That means it's time for one of the great Roman traditions: station churches. Each morning, English-speaking pilgrims walk to a different church for Mass. This morning, on the way to St. Anastasia's, I was once again struck by a line in the Our Father: “forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.” That's a hard thing to pray, It doesn't leave a lot of wiggle room. Even the Catechism seems shocked by it:

This petition is astonishing. If it consisted only of the first phrase, "And forgive us our trespasses," it might have been included, implicitly, in the first three petitions of the Lord's Prayer, since Christ's sacrifice is "that sins may be forgiven." But, according to the second phrase, our petition will not be heard unless we have first met a strict requirement. Our petition looks to the future, but our response must come first, for the two parts are joined by the single word "as."
Upon arriving at Mass, I discovered that the Gospel for the day was Matthew 6:7-15, in which Christ introduces this prayer. That seemed too serendipitous to simply be a coincidence. Then Archbishop Di Noia, O.P., got up to preach the homily, and it was all about how to understand this particular petition. So here goes: I think that the Lord's Prayer is flatly inconsistent with sola fide, the Protestant doctrine of justification by faith alone. Here's why.

In this line of the Lord's Prayer, Jesus seems to be explicitly conditioning our forgiveness on our forgiving. Indeed, it's hard to read “forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us” any other way. What's more, after introducing the prayer, Jesus focuses on this line, in particular. Here's how He explains it (Matthew 6:14-15):
For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
So to be forgiven, you must forgive. If you do, you'll be forgiven. If you don't, you won't be. It's as simple as that.

So Christ has now told us three times that our being forgiven is conditioned upon our forgiving, using the most explicit of language. How does Luther respond to this? “God forgives freely and without condition, out of pure grace.” And what is Calvin's response? “The forgiveness, which we ask that God would give us, does not depend on the forgiveness which we grant to others.”

Their theology forces them to deny Christ's plain words, since admitting them would concede that we need something more than faith alone: we also need to forgive our neighbors. They've painted themselves into a corner, theologically. To get out of it, they change this part of the Our Father into either a way that we can know that we're saved (Luther's approach: that God “set this up for our confirmation and assurance for a sign alongside of the promise which accords with this prayer”) or a non-binding moral exhortation (Calvin's: “to remind us of the feelings which we ought to cherish towards brethren, when we desire to be reconciled to God”).

Modern Protestants tend to do the same thing with these verses, and countless other passages in which Christ or the New Testament authors teach us about something besides faith that's necessary for salvation. We see this particularly in regards to the Biblical teaching on the saving role of Baptism (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21) and works (Matthew 25:31-46; Romans 2:6-8; James 2). There are three common tactics employed:

  1. Reverse the causality. If a passage says that you must do X in order to be saved, claim that it really means that if you're saved, you'll just naturally do X. Thus, X is important for showing that you're saved, but it doesn't actually do anything, and certainly isn't necessary for salvation (even if the Bible says otherwise: Mark 16:16).
  2. No True Scotsman. If Scripture says that someone believed and then lost their salvation (like Simon the Magician in Acts 8, or the heretics mentioned in 2 Peter 2), say that they must not have ever actually believed (even if the Bible says the opposite: Acts 8:13, 2 Peter 2:1, 20-22).
  3. Spiritualize the passage into oblivion. If the Bible says that Baptism is necessary for salvation, argue that this is just a “spiritual” Baptism that means nothing more than believing. And if you need to get around the need to be “born of water and the Spirit” (John 3:5) spiritualize this, too, to get rid of the need for water. Reduce everything to a symbol, or a metaphor for faith.

In fairness to both the Reformers and to modern Protestants, they want to avoid any notion that we can earn God's forgiveness or our salvation. This doesn't justify denying or distorting Christ's words, but it's a holy impulse. And in fact, it was the theme of Abp. Di Noia's homily this morning. Grace is a gift, and what's more, grace is what enables us to forgive others. This point is key, because it explains why Christ isn't teaching something like Pelagianism.

God freely pours out His graces upon us, which bring about both (a) our forgiveness, and (b) our ability to forgive others. But we can choose to accept that grace and act upon it, or to reject it. And that decision has eternal consequences. Such an understanding is harmonious with Christ's actual words, while avoiding any idea that we possess the power to earn our salvation.

So both Catholics and Protestants reject Pelagianism, but there's a critical difference. Catholics believe that grace enables us to do good works, whereas Protestants tend to believe that grace causes us to do good works. To see why it matters, consider the parable of the unmerciful servant, Matthew 18:21-35. In this parable, we see three things happen:

  1. A debtor is forgiven an enormous debt of ten thousand talents (Mt. 18:25-27). Solely through the grace of the Master (clearly representing God), this man is forgiven his debts (sins). He is in a state of grace.
  2. This debtor refuses to forgive his neighbor of a small debt of 100 denarii (Mt. 18:28-30). The fact that he's been forgiven should enable the debtor to be forgiving: in being forgiven, he's received the equivalent of 60,000,000 denarii, and he's certainly seen a moral model to follow. But he turns away from the model laid out by the Master, and refuses to forgive his neighbor.
  3. This debtor is unforgiven by his Master (Mt. 18:32-35). The kicker comes at the very end: “And in anger his lord delivered him to the jailers, till he should pay all his debt. So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.”
Now, consider all of the Protestant work-arounds discussed above. To deny that this debtor was ever really forgiven would be an insult to the Master and in contradiction to the text. To say that, if we're forgiven, we'll just naturally forgive is equally a contradiction: this debtor is forgiven, and doesn't. To treat the need to forgive the other debtor as a non-binding moral exhortation would have been a fatal error. 

This parable gets to the heart of the issue. The Master's forgiveness is freely given, and cannot be earned. But that doesn't mean it's given unconditionally or irrevocably. Quite the contrary: Christ shows us in this parable that it can be repealed, and tells us why: if we refuse to forgive, we will not be forgiven. It turns out, the Lord's Prayer actually means what it says.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Theology
KEYWORDS: bumpusadsummum; calvin; catholic; faithalone; forgiveness; forgivingtrespasses; luther; ourfather; paternoster; prayer; solafide; thelordsprayer; theourfather
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To: Mark17

Not one person ever keeps the commandments.


That is so true. We all sin. No one can bluff their way past God. But if we are truly sorry when we break any of God’s commandments, we have the assurance that he is a loving and forgiving God. Our Lord is kind and merciful, and will eagerly take us back into His loving arms if we repent and ask for His forgiveness.

I find great consolation in Romans 7.

In verse 15, even Paul admits to doing what he hates. But he ends the chapter with those wonderful words of hope. (By hope, I mean the virtue in which we have confident assurance of the saving grace of God through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.)

O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 7:24-25


181 posted on 02/26/2015 5:43:44 AM PST by rwa265
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To: CynicalBear; Grateful2God
>>I thought only God was always right...<<

I thought Catholics were required to believe that the magisterium is always right.

Ah ha. Is this what you woukd call a classic case of a conundrum?

182 posted on 02/26/2015 5:49:38 AM PST by Mark17 (Calvary's love has never faltered, all it's wonder still remains. Souls still take eternal passage)
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To: rwa265

“All we need to is to love God with all our heart, soul, and mind, and love each other as Jesus loves us, and the rest will follow.”

So we need to do is keep his commandments and love God with all of our heart, soul, and mind, and then love each other as Jesus loves us? So the Beatles were right when they sang “all we need is love?” That’s it? That’s all God demands? I wish I had known that a long time ago. For decades I’ve been going around believing we had to do something hard.

/s

FRiend, the Bible tells us the law is a curse (Deuteronomy 27:26, Galatians 3:10) That’s because the Bible tells us if we offend the law at only one little point we are guilty of breaking the whole law (James 2:10). Men who attempt to keep the law for salvation quickly realize the utter futility of their task. No mere man can possibly keep the whole law perfectly, but that is precisely what our Holy Holy Holy God demands. And you know what, that is a wonderful thing! Because of where it leads us, we should love God’s law! Galatians 3:24 teaches the law is a schoolmaster designed to drive us to Christ by faith.

“The Law was our schoolmaster, to bring us unto CHRIST, that we might be justified by FAITH.” (Galatians 3:24)


183 posted on 02/26/2015 5:50:52 AM PST by .45 Long Colt
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To: ealgeone; Salvation

Your talking points are overdone.

Just keep hammering like the like the biased media and the lies will be believed.

We honor our Blessed Mother for her role as Mother of God and as Mother to all of us.


184 posted on 02/26/2015 5:58:09 AM PST by ADSUM
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To: CynicalBear

Your responses indicate a great knowledge of the Bible, I am just curious what church you belong to.

If you would rather not respond that is okay, its not that often I see a poster who has the same beliefs I have been taught.


185 posted on 02/26/2015 6:08:40 AM PST by genesismt
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To: pgyanke
>>From there, you have to remember that we are sinners constantly being saved.<<

Romans 8:24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have?

Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--

2 Timothy 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Who does the preserving?

John 10:27-30 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.”

Is God not able to keep His promise?

186 posted on 02/26/2015 6:11:11 AM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: metmom; tjd1454
TJ: One detects a subtle arrogance not only of "possessing the correct theology" (unlike those Papists) but of a mistaken assurance that one is "eternally secure" and thus can commit any sin with impunity.

MM: And just where on FR have you ever seen anyone advocate that now that we're saved we can commit any sin with impunity?

That charge is laid at the feet of Christians ONLY BY the RC's, who accuse us of believing that.

I have yet to see ONE poster advocate that. Perhaps you could point us to the post where someone has said that.


Well of course this is a caricature.  Again, what is surprising is how often it is used.  I give the poster the benefit of the doubt, that they sincerely believe the evangelical/Protestant understanding of grace would lead to sin.  Even the apostle Paul was aware of that potential misunderstanding of divine grace:
 Romans 6:1-2  What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?  (2)  God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Why did Paul have to issue that warning?  Because it was possible for people even then, in the First Century, to read Paul's own theology of grace, and misunderstand it as suggesting sin no longer mattered one way or the other.  As Paul says, and as every heart led by the Spirit of God would say, "God forbid." That's not where Paul's teaching on grace leads.  We Protestants/evangelicals don't stop reading at the end of chapter 5. We keep reading. So we understand that even though by grace we have been legally declared "not guilty" by virtue of the blood of Christ paying the penalty for our sins, nevertheless we are, just as Paul says, dead to sin, hostile to sin, changed in our hearts and minds, so that what drives and motivates us is our desire to be as close to God as possible, to be as right with Him as possible, at all times and under all conditions.

So if even Paul had to warn people off of misconstruing grace, we are in pretty good company. We are teaching grace the way Paul taught it, so we are presented with the same objections Paul faced. I say that's a good thing. :)

As for arrogance, I find that charge fascinating.  It is exactly the same charge I have faced my whole life when presenting Jesus to unbelievers.  They say, "How arrogant of you to assert that Jesus is the only way of salvation. Surely there are many roads to Heaven, Buddha, Mohamed, ... etc etc etc"  In this postmodern era, where there is no truth but the one truth that there is no truth, any assertion of definite, absolute truth comes across as arrogant.  How else could it be viewed.  If I were an unbeliever, I might very well see it the same way.  

But it is particularly sad when it happens as between those who purport to be believers.  It's perfectly fine that people come into the kingdom not up to speed on everything the Bible teaches, and when they look at Biblical theology they may have to work their way to a better understanding through discussion and even debate.  Else why would the Ecclesia have need of believers with the spiritual gift of teaching?  So we expect some differences of personal opinion among believers.  

But truth excludes it's opposite. There is such a thing as false doctrine, and it is right to point it out. If we learn that the Bible really does teach one thing and not another, how can we be obedient to God if we do not give truth it's proper place?  We obey the truth, and are charged with arrogance.  By nearly everybody.  But if we are being obedient to God, we have to let those charges roll off our back for the insignificant thing they are.

Peace,

SR


187 posted on 02/26/2015 6:11:28 AM PST by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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To: metmom

“...charge laid only by RC’s...commit any sin with impunity...”

It was the founder of protestant doctrine and tradition (Luther) himself who wrote that sola fida means that one can now sin with impunity.

Luther wrote:

“If adultery could be committed in faith, it would not be a sin” and

“Sin boldly ...”

Once saved always saved is NEVER mentioned in the bible. To return to the topic, that is the reason that in the Lord’s prayer we ask our Father to forgive us our trespasses because we are in ongoing need of forgiveness, not because we are already saved.

In fact the opposite is true: Hebrews 6:4-8

For fellow Catholics: I have been saved (Romans 8:24) I am being saved (2 Cor 2:15) and I hope to be saved (Romans 5:9-10). Salvation is a process that requires cooperation, not a done deal. The Catholic position accurately accounts for ALL of the scriptures on the topic, not just one or two.

The best examples are Judas and Satan himself, both who believed, sinned and most definitely are NOT saved. Lucifer is still in hell, and most likely Judas, although we don’t know definitively who is in hell because we are not God.

Is the response that they somehow weren’t saved to begin with? This is not very comforting, since we all sin and so must now constantly question whether we really were saved, especially if the sin is serious.

That is why confession was instituted. John 20:21-23


188 posted on 02/26/2015 6:18:15 AM PST by stonehouse01
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To: Mark17
>>but CB, even you make a mistake now and then<<

I'm shocked! Shocked I tell ya!! Actually, truth of the matter is that God promised to forgive all my sins and never bring them to mind again. And in my case that's a whole lot of never bringing to mind. 😄😃😀😊

>>so don't try to bluff your way past God into Heaven<<

No bluffing needed for those of us who have covered by the blood of Jesus. Thanks be to Jesus!!!

189 posted on 02/26/2015 6:31:44 AM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: ADSUM; Salvation; Arthur McGowan
I'll ask the three of you a simple yes or no question.....

Are you in favor of the Fifth Marian dogma that would officially declare Mary to be co-redemtrix, Helper and Advocate.....?

Bear in mind, these are already being done by Jesus (Redeemer and Advocate) and the Holy Spirit (Helper and Advocate).

190 posted on 02/26/2015 6:34:39 AM PST by ealgeone
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To: metmom

Hang on, I think there was a cult in Asia that believed that... of course they were a criminal enterprise....


191 posted on 02/26/2015 6:48:55 AM PST by GeronL
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To: pgyanke; Mark17
Says who? You?

A good question. Certainly the magisterial office is Scriptural, as Westminster affirms, and has authority, but the question (asked of another also) is whether being the instruments and stewards of Divine revelation means they are the infallible judges as to what is of God and what it means?

How about the Pillar and Bulwark of the Truth... The Church.

And just what do you extrapolate out of this text, based upon what it says in Greek? And has this verse been infallible defined as meaning what you say, or are you validating personal interpretation of Scripture as long as you say it supports Rome?

Sure, there was the suggestion that we might choose that course of action as a solution to our sinfulness... but it wasn't a direct command.

So "if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell" (Matthew 5:29) is not a direct command but further on "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect" (Matthew 5:48) is?

You define the term too narrowly: Door is also defined "any means of approach, admittance, or access:" Seems to fit to me.

Nor is everything literal, and the point is that only the metaphorical view is consistent with both John and the rest of Scripture.

First, the use of figurative language for eating and drinking is quite prevalent in Scripture, in which men are referred to as bread, and drinking water as being the blood of men, and the word of God is eaten, etc

And the three mighty men brake through the host of the Philistines, and drew water out of the well of Beth–lehem, that was by the gate, and took it, and brought it to David: nevertheless he would not drink thereof, but poured it out unto the Lord. And he said, Be it far from me, O Lord, that I should do this: is not this the blood of the men that went in jeopardy of their lives? therefore he would not drink it. These things did these three mighty men. (2 Samuel 23:16-17)

To be consistent with their plain-language hermeneutic Caths must also insist this was literal. After all, David clearly said it was blood and refused to drink it, consistent with the Law, and this poured it out as an offering unto the Lord.

As well as when God clearly states that the Canaanites were “bread: “Only rebel not ye against the LORD, neither fear ye the people of the land; for they are bread for us” (Num. 14:9)

And or that the Promised Land was “a land that eateth up the inhabitants thereof.” (Num. 13:32)

And or when David said that his enemies came to “eat up my flesh.” (Ps. 27:2)

And or when Jeremiah proclaimed, Your words were found. and I ate them. and your word was to me the joy and rejoicing of my heart” (Jer. 15:16)

And or when Ezekiel was told, “eat this scroll, and go, speak to the house of Israel.” (Ezek. 3:1)

And or when (in a phrase similar to the Lord’s supper) John is commanded, “Take the scroll ... Take it and eat it.” (Rev. 10:8-9 )

Moreover, the use of figurative language for Christ and spiritual things abounds in John, using the physical to refer to the spiritual:

• In John 1:29, Jesus is called “the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world” — but he does not have hoofs and literal physical wool.

• In John 2:19 Jesus is the temple of God: “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up” — but He is not made of literal stone.

• In John 3:14,15, Jesus is the likened to the serpent in the wilderness (Num. 21) who must “be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal” (vs. 14, 15) — but He is not made of literal bronze.

• In John 4:14, Jesus provides living water, that “whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life” (v. 14) — but which was not literally consumed by mouth.

• In John 7:37 Jesus is the One who promises “He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water” — but this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive. (John 7:38)

• In Jn. 9:5 Jesus is “the Light of the world” — but who is not blocked by an umbrella.

• In John 10, Jesus is “the door of the sheep,”, and the good shepherd [who] giveth his life for the sheep”, “that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly” vs. 7, 10, 11) — but who again, is not literally an animal with cloven hoofs.

• In John 15, Jesus is the true vine — but who does not physically grow from the ground nor whose fruit is literally physically consumed.

• In John 6, Jesus is the bread of life — but who does not give His physically flesh to eaten tio gain life, any more than He lives by the Father by eating His, (Jn. 6:57) but reveals that like as the Son lived by every word which proceeded from the mouth of God, (Mt. 4:4) and thus doing the Father's will was His "meant," (Jn. 4:24) so the flesh itself profits nothing, but the words He spoke are spirit and are life. (Jn. 6:63)

And nowhere in Scripture was physically eating anything literal the means of obtaining spiritual and eternal life, but which by believing the word of God, the gospel. By which one is born again. (Acts 10:43-47; 15:7-9; Eph. 1:13)

And which is consistent with the rest of John, in which not only is faith in Christ, not eating, the means of obtaining spiritual and eternal life, but like as in Jn. 6, John often reveals the Lord speaking in an apparently physical way in order to reveal the spiritual meaning to those who awaited the meaning.

In. Jn. 2:19,20, the Lord spoke in a way that seems to refer to destroying the physical temple in which He had just drove out the money changers, and left the Jews to that misapprehension of His words, so that this was a charge during His trial and crucifixion by the carnally minded. (Mk. 14:58; 15:29) But the meaning was revealed to His disciples after the resurrection.

Likewise, in Jn. 3:3, the Lord spoke in such an apparently physical way that Nicodemus exclaimed, "How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?" (John 3:4)

And in which, as is characteristic of John, and as seen in Jn. 6:63, the Lord goes on to distinguish btwn the flesh and the Spirit, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit," (John 3:6) leaving Nicodemus to figure it out, requiring seeking, rather than making it clear. Which requires reading more than that chapter, as with Jn. 6, revealing being born spiritually in regeneration. (Acts 10:43-47; 15:7-9; Eph. 1:13; 2:5)

Likewise in Jn. 4, beside a well of physical water, the Lord spoke to a women seeking such water of a water which would never leave the drinker to thirst again, which again was understood as being physical. But which was subtly inferred to be spiritual to the inquirer who stayed the course, but which is only made clear by reading more of Scriptural revelation.

And thus we see the same manner of revelation in Jn. 6, in which the Lord spoke to souls seeking physical sustenance of a food which would never leave the eater to hunger again. Which again was understood as being physical, but which was subtly inferred to be spiritual to the inquirers who stayed the course. But which is only made clear by reading more of Scriptural revelation.

And again, in so doing the Lord makes living by this "bread" of flesh and blood as analogous to how He lived by the Father, "As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me." (John 6:57)

And the manner by which the Lord lived by the Father was as per Mt. 4:4: "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." (Matthew 4:4)

And therefore, once again using metaphor, the Lord stated to disciples who thought He was referring to physical bread, "My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work." (John 4:34)

And likewise the Lord revealed that He would not even be with them physically in the future, but that His words are Spirit and life:

What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. (John 6:62-63)

And as with those who imagined the Lord was referring to the physical Temple, the Lord left the protoCatholics to go their own way, who seemed to have yet imagined that the Lord was sanctioning a form of cannibaalism, or otherwise had no heart for further seeking of the Lord who has "the words of eternal life" as saith Peter, not the flesh, eating of which profits nothing spiritually..

And which is made clear by reading more of Scriptural revelation For as shown, the fact is that the allegorical understanding of Jn. 6:27-69 is the only one that is consistent with the rest of Scripture, and again, which nowhere in all of Scripture is spiritual and eternal life gained by literally eating anything physical, which manner of eating is what Jn. 6:53,54 makes as an imperative according to the literalistic interpretation. Which RCs do not take fully literally as they render it an unbloody blood and transubstantiated presence, nor do they exclude all who do not believe the Cath. theory from having eternal life.

Supposing one gains spiritual life by literally eating human flesh and blood is endocannibalism, not the Scriptural gospel.

Alpers and Lindenbaum’s research conclusively demonstrated that kuru [neurological disorder] spread easily and rapidly in the Fore people due to their endocannibalistic funeral practices, in which relatives consumed the bodies of the deceased to return the “life force” of the deceased to the hamlet, a Fore societal subunit. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuru_%...9#Transmission

he custom of eating bread sacramentally as the body of a god was practised by the Aztecs before the discovery and conquest of Mexico by the Spaniards."

The May ceremony is thus described by the historian Acosta: “The Mexicans in the month of May made their principal feast to their god Vitzilipuztli, and two days before this feast, the virgins whereof I have spoken (the which were shut up and secluded in the same temple and were as it were religious women) did mingle a quantity of the seed of beets with roasted maize, and then they did mould it with honey, making an idol...all the virgins came out of their convent, bringing pieces of paste compounded of beets and roasted maize, which was of the same paste whereof their idol was made and compounded, and they were of the fashion of great bones. They delivered them to the young men, who carried them up and laid them at the idol’s feet, wherewith they filled the whole place that it could receive no more. They called these morsels of paste the flesh and bones of Vitzilipuztli.

...then putting themselves in order about those morsels and pieces of paste, they used certain ceremonies with singing and dancing. By means whereof they were blessed and consecrated for the flesh and bones of this idol. This ceremony and blessing (whereby they were taken for the flesh and bones of the idol) being ended, they honoured those pieces in the same sort as their god....then putting themselves in order about those morsels and pieces of paste, they used certain ceremonies with singing and dancing. By means whereof they were blessed and consecrated for the flesh and bones of this idol. This ceremony and blessing (whereby they were taken for the flesh and bones of the idol) being ended, they honoured those pieces in the same sort as their god...

And this should be eaten at the point of day, and they should drink no water nor any other thing till after noon: they held it for an ill sign, yea, for sacrilege to do the contrary:...and then they gave them to the people in manner of a communion, beginning with the greater, and continuing unto the rest, both men, women, and little children, who received it with such tears, fear, and reverence as it was an admirable thing, saying that they did eat the flesh and bones of God, where-with they were grieved. Such as had any sick folks demanded thereof for them, and carried it with great reverence and veneration.”

...They believed that by consecrating bread their priests could turn it into the very body of their god, so that all who thereupon partook of the consecrated bread entered into a mystic communion with the deity by receiving a portion of his divine substance into themselves.

The doctrine of transubstantiation, or the magical conversion of bread into flesh, was also familiar to the Aryans of ancient India long before the spread and even the rise of Christianity. The Brahmans taught that the rice-cakes offered in sacrifice were substitutes for human beings, and that they were actually converted into the real bodies of men by the manipulation of the priest.

...At the festival of the winter solstice in December the Aztecs killed their god Huitzilopochtli in effigy first and ate him afterwards. - http://www.bartleby.com/196/121.html

There may be some differences, but these have far more in common with the Cath idea of the Eucharist than anything seen in Scripture interpretive of the words of the last supper.

192 posted on 02/26/2015 6:56:35 AM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: stonehouse01

I think you’ve misrepresented Luther. When Luther said “sin boldly” in a letter to Phillip Melanchthon, he was in no way giving license to sin. That letter was an indictment of who we are as human beings. Because of our fallen nature, Luther knew we would continue to sin until the end. He wanted people to understand their poverty before the Lord. He wanted them to understand they are in utter bondage to sin.

If you want to bash Protestants, continue misusing that phrase as you did. But if you want to understand Luther’s real teaching on sin (and the Bible’s), read his book “The Bondage of the Will.”

All that said, even if Luther did teach it was okay to sin, that’s not a good argument because while Luther is admired for breaking Rome’s grip and helping to recover the gospel, he is not the Protestant standard.

This is what Luther actually said:

“If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong (sin boldly), but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2 Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that through God’s glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner.”


193 posted on 02/26/2015 6:57:13 AM PST by .45 Long Colt
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To: genesismt
>>I am just curious what church you belong to.<<

All true believers who put their faith in Christ alone through faith alone are part of the ekklesia of Christ, those called out by God to be His. I belong to that ekklesia. I claim no "membership" or "belonging" to any man made organization. I belong to Christ alone and He is my High Priest. I can meet and worship with any like minded whether it's in a group of three or hundreds. I have found that it matters not what name the group calls itself as long as they remain true to scripture.

A comment my grandfather made when I was about 14 years old has remained with me all these years. He said with a finger point up "He is who you put your faith in" then with his finger pointing to the the "church" said "it's not them". Again with his finger pointing up said "he is who died for you" and again pointing to the "church" said "it's not them". He worshipped faithfully his entire life in one "church" but I knew that day that he truly belonged to Christ not to that "church".

194 posted on 02/26/2015 7:03:25 AM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: .45 Long Colt
"Well, I was indeed dead, but due to His plenteous mercy and grace, I've been made alive."

Amen, and amen.

195 posted on 02/26/2015 7:04:52 AM PST by Dutchboy88
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To: CynicalBear
A comment my grandfather made when I was about 14 years old has remained with me all these years. He said with a finger point up "He is who you put your faith in" then with his finger pointing to the the "church" said "it's not them". Again with his finger pointing up said "he is who died for you" and again pointing to the "church" said "it's not them". He worshipped faithfully his entire life in one "church" but I knew that day that he truly belonged to Christ not to that "church".

Never met either one of my grandfathers. But now, I are one. Hope to have the opportunity to say that (what your granddad said to you) to my grandson when he can understand.
196 posted on 02/26/2015 7:21:34 AM PST by Resettozero
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To: metmom; tjd1454
And just where on FR have you ever seen anyone advocate that now that we're saved we can commit any sin with impunity? That charge is laid at the feet of Christians ONLY BY the RC's, who accuse us of believing that. I have yet to see ONE poster advocate that. Perhaps you could point us to the post where someone has said that.

I think you need to take into account that this is from a poster whom i have never seen posting on the RF till i quickly searched just now, yet he states has "a Ph.D. in Theology from a Jesuit University, and my B.A. and M.A. from well-known Evangelical colleges" who believes in salvation by faith, but who also sees believe that “faith without works is dead.”

Which is what Reformers preached , and evangelicals far more testify to than the fruit of Rome , yet in reflection of society ever our faith has become more superficial than in Scripture.

Moreover, sadly tjd1454 apparently does not see Rome as an adversary of real salvific faith, unlike reformers and so many founders of American, and imagines we can have a united from with elitist coreligionists as we supposedly have a "shared faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior," which itself is a form of declension. And i need to be stronger in faith and love for God, souls and the Truth.

197 posted on 02/26/2015 7:24:11 AM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: daniel1212
And i need to be stronger in faith and love for God, souls and the Truth.

On the electronically-typed Internet page, you have been strong in "anger without sinning" (your posted responses to those who don't really know what they are saying), which is necessary in order to remain loving. Jesus Christ also was quite adept at that.
198 posted on 02/26/2015 7:30:03 AM PST by Resettozero
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To: ealgeone

It’s not a solemnly defined dogma. It is a teaching of the Ordinary Magisterium. As such, every Catholic is required to assent to it.

Saint Paul urges us to offer prayers, intercessions, etc., for one another. This is in no way a usurpation of the functions of Christ and the Holy Spirit. There is therefore no rational basis for holding that if Christians IN HEAVEN offer prayers, intercession, etc., that they are usurping the functions of Christ or the Holy Spirit.

My mother, when she was living in Baltimore, prayed and interceded for me. It is totally irrational to hold that my mother, now that she is living in Heaven, CANNOT pray and intercede for me.

It is preposterous to hold that a Christian can pray in Baltimore, but cannot pray in Heaven.


199 posted on 02/26/2015 7:31:25 AM PST by Arthur McGowan
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To: daniel1212

Jesus Christ also IS quite adept at that.


200 posted on 02/26/2015 7:31:36 AM PST by Resettozero
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